Be careful with this eBay 7rivet pan

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Be careful with this eBay 7rivet pan
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 01:57 am:

This is advertised as an original 7 rivet pan, but you can clearly see only 3 rivets on the inside of the pan. Also the rear collar, where it mates to the driveshaft, is the 1 rivet style, not the earlier 2 rivet. It looks like someone was in the process of making s clone, which was pretty common.... Take an early 3 rivet pan, add more rivets, and there is very little to identify it. I think that was even documented in the Vintage Ford many years ago.... This one does have the early cover plate. It needs repairs.... Based on what I have been offered for my real 1911 7 rivet pan this price may be ok for a pan in this condition if it was real, but I am pretty certain it's not..... I emailed the buyer the first time this listed and he said he spoke with Don Lang about it and felt it was an early '12 pan. I don't know about that and am not going to call Don and ask, he never answered my questions about the 7 holes in the years or only 3 rivets on the inside an no extra holes.

I just want everyone to really evaluate this if you are seriously considering bidding on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221382337203?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m142 3.l2649


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 05:28 am:

I would be more concerned with the missing oil drain tea cup - hard to keep the oil in that pan ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 06:59 am:

If the price was under say $100 I could justify the work needed to fix it. Price is silly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:58 am:

Is it possible this is a kind of transitional pan? Could Ford have used up the last of the 7 rivet hangers and just installed 3 rivets in the holes on the newer design 3 rivet pan? Everything seems equally rusty and the holes are not drilled in the pan but seem to be punched correctly in the ears. Just asking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:13 am:

the door is worth more than 100.00.i think it was late 12- early 13 .charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 10:08 am:

Where do I count the Rivets ? I have like 7 pans , how much are Mag plates worth. ? And any idea on value of T crank shafts? thx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 10:50 am:

Also has the one piece lower cover retainer - a bit rare too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 01:32 pm:

I've seen similar transitional pans, three rivets with the sloping arms and late rear casting. I thought you had a pan like that, Gary. I've never seen one with seven holes in the arms but only three rivets used, though. Could be that Ford was simply using up the predrilled arms. The nickel size hole in the arm somewhat troubles me since all the seven rivet arms I've seen don't have the hole. But that could be a transitional piece. I'd venture a guess the pan is the real deal, later 1912, and needs only the teacup. The repos look the right shape for this year.
Price isn't that far out of line if it is genuine. I've seen complete 1911-12 pans sell for $1200.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 01:38 pm:

I've seen similar transitional pans, three rivets with the sloping arms and late rear casting. I thought you had a pan like that, Gary. I've never seen one with seven holes in the arms but only three rivets used, though. Could be that Ford was simply using up the predrilled arms. The nickel size hole in the arm somewhat troubles me since all the seven rivet arms I've seen don't have the hole. But that could be a transitional piece. I'd venture a guess the pan is the real deal, later 1912, and needs only the teacup. The repos look the right shape for this year.
Price isn't that far out of line if it is genuine. I've seen complete 1911-12 pans sell for $1200.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 01:43 pm:

I've seen similar transitional pans, three rivets with the sloping arms and late rear casting. I thought you had a pan like that, Gary. I've never seen one with seven holes in the arms but only three rivets used, though. Could be that Ford was simply using up the predrilled arms. The nickel size hole in the arm somewhat troubles me since all the seven rivet arms I've seen don't have the hole. But that could be a transitional piece. I'd venture a guess the pan is the real deal, later 1912, and needs only the teacup. The repos look the right shape for this year.
Price isn't that far out of line if it is genuine. I've seen complete 1911-12 pans sell for $1200.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 02:32 pm:

I, too, notice I repeat myself more often as I get older.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 03:28 pm:

We all get excited at times and "stutter".

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 04:20 pm:

The arms and knowing about the clones is what bothered me. You're right Richard, I did have a pan with the later collar and 7 rivets. I bought it with a '12 undercarriage, didn't need the pan and put it on eBay with a bunch of pics.... I wanted the clamshell rear end and had to buy the undercarriage to get it. You pointed out the details and I revised my listing because I couldn't prove it either way. That's when I started digging into them more. I still don't know exactly what the history was with that one. I am not close enough to see the pan, but I would want to inspect it, or have someone I know inspect it, before paying that much for it. If it is the real deal and the extra holes and teacup are the only problems the price is not out of line, especially with the bottom cover. If someone is going to buy it hopefully they will ask questions or look at it closely first.

I don't have an issue with clones; I'm going to build up a spare 15 block I have to use in my '11 as a driver, and I will take an old '15 pan I have that's missing an ear, put a teacup on it and extra rivets. I've decided I want to save my real '11 power plant.... I drive it regularly and would feel terrible if I threw a rod through the block or broke a crank and trashed it. So I'll use a clone myself, but I would not expect to get much money for it if I ever sell it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 04:59 pm:

If anyone needs a clone 1909/10 one piece pan I have one left. The very last one available made by the late Ron Brown. Wide style, seven rivet, teacup drain, all the right details. KRW aligned and no leaks. See it at Bakersfield.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 05:54 pm:

I don't think that is an early 1912. I feel that way because the pan on my February, 1912 Torpedo, 93159 has the that wider end collar.

Royce also told me that his same week touring has that same wider collar on his pan. I know of two other unrestored early 12'a that have this wider collar. This is the collar you see in the first, unpainted pan.

The other narrow color pan you see on the painted pan is from my 1912 Touring an August car.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:45 pm:

Can't figure how I got a triple listing. Must have hiccupped or something when I went to upload it. ;^)
BTW, I thought Trent or someone had an article somewhere detailing all the changes that were made to the crankcase. Anyone remember where it was published?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 08:11 am:

Mark Herdman made a series of postings last year detailing the evolution of Model T crankcases:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356164.html?1366445246
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356250.html?1366445992
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/356346.html?1366342371


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 01:43 pm:

Thank you Roger, there's enough info there to verify this pan as early 13. The one piece retainer, the long front casting, the later style rear casting, the tapered arm hangers, the brazing hole, the early inspection cover. The only item that could be questioned is the extra holes in the arms. My guess is they are factory overruns, but can't rule out someone got half way thru drilling extra holes thinking to add more rivets at a later date. Not likely though. If they were doing that, why would they not drill through the pan?
A bit on the high side re price, maybe, but I think its genuine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 03:32 pm:

I think the arms probably got replaced at some point. Again, it would be easy to fix (for me) but the price is silly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 03:11 am:

I came across this Crankcase with seven rivet ears on a typical early 1913 crankcase. It appears the old ears were used up at some point in 1913 production. Note the ears have been punched for 7 rivets but only 3 used on the crankcase (as in the original top of this discussion). Also the ears vary in that one has an approx 1 inch hole and the other has no 1 inch hole. I believe the hole is to assist in heat drawing the braze.

Thanks

Mark




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 03:13 am:

A couple more pics of the same crankcase




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 08:25 am:

Sorry got the pics doubled up. Here is a pic of the other crankcase ear


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