1923 Modle TT rear end trouble

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1923 Modle TT rear end trouble
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoff George on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 05:48 pm:

Hi can anyone tell me how to get the rear end of a Modle TT apart. The right rear wheel seems to be locked on or welded on some how as we have tried to get it off. the left one came right off with the puller but we can not get the right one off. Is there a way to get the axle out with out having to get the wheel off? any help would be great on how to do this. Thanks
Geoff


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 06:32 pm:

The wheel must come off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 06:48 pm:

The bad news is that there is no way to get the axle out without removing the wheel and disassembling the rear end. The good news is that a TT rear end is very simple and requires no adjustments like a regular T rear end. You just bolt it back together, very simple.

Getting the wheel off and taking apart the rear end are 2 different things.

1. To get the wheel off, first just obtain and use a TT wheel puller. If you don't have one you might be able to find someone near you on this forum who would loan one to you. If the wheel puller doesn't work, then back off the axle nut a turn or so and drive it around a little and see if that frees it up. Sometimes they can be a bear to break loose. You might also try encouraging it a little with a block of wood and a medium sledge hammer.

2. From memory hoping I don't forget anything, to take the rear end apart you must first remove it from the truck. Start by getting everything supported with jack stands (chassis and rear end separately supported). Drain the rear end oil. Remove the wheels, axle caps, outer seals, wheel bearings, bearing sleeves and the inner seals. Remove the ball cap bolts. Remove all brake rods. Now pull out one spring shackle bold on each side. The rear end should now be free. Just raise the chassis a little and using a floor jack wheel the unit out from under the truck. This takes 2 people, one on the floor jack and one holding the U-joint end of the drive shaft.

Once you have it out, all you need to do to take it apart is remove the radius rods, the end cap, the drive shaft it's tube and the flange, and the clam shell perimeter bolts then pull it apart.


It sounds like a lot, but it's really not. Just a lot of grunting. You don't say why you want to take the rear end apart, so I suggest you be careful to determine it's necessary before you do all that work. Once you do take it apart, be sure to replace all seals. There are 3 on each side. Each wheel bearing has an inner and an outer plus there's one in near the inner bearing to contain rear end oil.

Let us know how this goes. Also, not to belabor the point, but why do you want to take it apart?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:20 pm:

Henry...I'll take Geoff's question one step further if you don't mind. I'm very familiar with pulling the whole axle assembly out, after doing two "regular" T's last year. But, I also have a TT firetruck that unfortunately apparently has that slow-poke standard ring gear and worm. Eventually I'd like to change it out to the faster gear. Once the rear end is out, do you know how easy/hard it is to bust it apart and replace the ring gear and worm gear? Is there all sorts of clearances/tolerances to worry about much like the standard T gear and pinion mating? I don't have any of those guages to measure that stuff up with. This poor firetruck needs to go more than 20-22 mph, cripes the structure will burn to the ground before I get there! LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoff George on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:59 pm:

Dean thanks that is what I was afraid of. Henry I was asking how to take it apart in the hope that there was a way to do it witht he wheel on and then I could work on getting the wheel off. The problem is the wheel will not come off. We tried a puller with no luck. tried the drive it around with no luck. we tried hammers and heat with no luck. this wheel just will not come off.
the rear end has a gearing that will let the truck do about 35 so I hate to trash it but have no ideal how to deal with the wheel that is stuck on the right side.
Tim my TT is also a fire truck. Ill try and post some pictures of it, or what I should say what was left of it when I found it.
I did get it running and drove it before I stared the rebuilding of the truck so the right side rear rolled fine but need the wheel off so I can restore the wood on the wheel.
thanks
Geoff


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Tim,

Once you take the thing out of the truck and take it apart, the rest is easy.

1. If you replace a low ratio gear set with a high ratio set, it must be a matched set, meaning that the ring and worm must both be the same ratio. If you currently have the low ratio set (7.25:1) and want the high ratio set (5.0625:1), you must replace both gears. You can not mix and match ratios, but there's no need for the gears to come from the same place as long as they're both of the same ratio.

2. There are no measurements, tolerances, adjustments etc. It just bolts together.

3. After separating the 2 clamshell halves, I found the hardest part of the whole thing was to pull it apart. Not complicated or anything, just needs a lot of elbow grease.

4. Once you have the clamshell halves apart, you'll have the differential and axles assembly. There are 8 bolts that hold the 2 halves of the differential gear case together and the ring gear. Just take out those 8 bolts and replace the gear with the new one as you put it back together.

5. As I said in the last post, be sure to replace all the seals/felts. You can get them and a set of gaskets from most of the vendors.

6. Once you have it apart it's a good time to inspect the axles where they come in contact with the outer wheel bearings and be sure they are not badly worn.

If you're mechanical and have at least some experience working on cars, once yo get it apart you be amazed at how simple it is. Be prepared for a fight when you put it back together, thought. As far as I know there are no modern seals for the inner-most differential oil seals. You must use felts as were used originally. Sliding the axle through the new felts requires some grease, some strength, and a lot of swearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:40 pm:

Geoff,

Maybe a little penetrating oil applied repeatedly over a few days will get it free.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoff George on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:49 pm:

here are two pictures of it. This is before we took it apart. I will have to get some pictures of it apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 08:58 pm:

Geoff, Does the truck still run?? If it does, you might try putting the wheel puller on the right rear with the axle nut backed of a little. (Put the left wheel back on) Tighter the wheel puller as tight as you can get it and than drive the truck, making some serious turns. This procedure seems to work on a T car and probably will work on a TT. It is worth a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 09:16 pm:

I agree with most of the comments so far, but I removed the rear end by myself because I didn't know it takes two people.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 09:25 pm:

Steve, there's a big difference in the weight of a TT dif and a car dif.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 09:41 pm:

Yeah, so?


The jack doesn't care.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 01:38 am:

I did mine myself also - heavy stuff!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 07:55 am:

Henry, thanks for the words of encouragement! Sometimes just getting past the "thinking about it part" is the hardest part of it all! Yep, I figured it would take the proper ratio of ring to worm gear, thanks. I'll start looking around for hopefully a good, used, and affordable(!) set.

Geoff: I like your truck! I can't post any pics of mine so far here, as they're too large a file, and I already have my camera set as low as it'll take 'em. Don't know why I can't get them down under 200Kb, and I've tried the "shrinking" program to no avail. Maybe I'm just stupid.
When I removed my rear wheels to have the dilapidated two-piece snap-ring rims replaced with new ones, my right wheel was a bear to get off too. But after shooting a bunch of PB blaster into the axle keyway, letting it set overnight, using tons of what little strength my arms have with the hub puller and a hammer, finally broke it free. Keep at it, you'll get it.
I'll PM some pics to you. Is your truck a Pirsch, ALF, or what? Mine is a Pirsch, on a '25 chassis.
Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 10:09 am:

The Jack doesn't care but your toes and fingers might! Shone in a older thread i think the Steve spreader bolted to the jack is needed! If one doe's not want to give Steve credit for the best idea since sliced bread,it could simply be called the toe saver! Bud in Wheeler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoff George on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 11:26 am:

Tim were still working on it. Maybe a bigger hammer. The fire truck was built in house at a small town fire district in southern Missouri. They got the body given to them from what I was told around 1929 and they had a shop in town put the tanks on it. So its a home made job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 12:05 pm:

I have a while rear axle fir you if you need it and the whole truck w/ Ruxsel Email privately


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 12:57 pm:

I think after you get it out of the frame you can remove one side and then split the carrier apart. Then get the c clip out and the axle with the wheel attached will pull out. There is a spacer between the axles that controls end play if I remember right. It was some time ago that I did mine. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 12:43 pm:

Removing a really stuck wheel is really quite easy if you go about it correctly. Years ago I found a nice high geared Ruxtel rear end for my TT with a stuck wheel. What I did to remove the wheel was to drill out the wheel bolt heads and removed the spokes and wheel. Then I cut off the remaining bolts so that I could get two heavy hammers on either side of the wheel hub... one as a backer the other as a beater. Two or three solid wacks and the hub jumped off the axle shaft taper. The hub was saved, the wheel was fine and I only had to replace the bolts to put things together again. As I recall I replaced both wheel bolt sets as they were severely rusted within the wooden spokes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 01:19 pm:

Geoff,

Any luck getting that wheel off?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 04:43 pm:

John - I think you're onto something there. We used to do that on the tie rods of 8N & 9N Fords. Sometimes they would jump up and almost hit you in the face. Also, I've done that to get ball joints loose on new (kinda) cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoff George on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 07:23 pm:

Henry not yet but were working on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 07:30 pm:

Fred, I saw a front end guy at our local auto shop a while back beating his puller into scrap metal trying to remove a pitman arm off a newer SUV steering box. When I showed him this trick he almost hit me! In his twenty some years of wrenching no one had shown him this simple method.

I learned about this "trick" from my dad who was a tooling "genius' in the aircraft industry. Later one of my college prof's explained that the shock wave does the work not the deformation of the part as one would expect.


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