1919 thru 1922 Switch Assembly for non-electrified cars...I think

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1919 thru 1922 Switch Assembly for non-electrified cars...I think
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 07:23 am:

George of Cherry Hill, showed me some picture of this switch and I think he said it was off a 1919 magneto car, so if this is from 1919, then 1922 non-electrified car would also have this particular switch...right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 09:11 am:

let others chime in...I think it is confusing....look at some things and it maybe started in 20 or so....the 19 magneto had the resistance block down on the firewall and still used the on the front of the coil box key switch kit....look at other things and it came along with the 22's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 12:19 pm:

I would show both the pin and tab type switch. Also, if the resistance unit was used there is a solid block off plate that fits where the amp meter would have gone. The one you show is open.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 03:32 pm:

Here is the rare 1926 type for non electrified Fords: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-1927-Ford-Ignition-Switch-Block-26-27-Model-T-Model -A-Parts-/360865478005 (too expensive at $42 I think, but I linked it here for the pictures :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 05:18 pm:

Martin:

According to Bruce McCalley's black book, the non-starter cars did not come with an instrument panel until the 1923 model year. (However, while researching the Wholesale Price List of parts, I have found there may have been some overlap with the instrument panel being standard on non-starter cars sometime during the 1922 model year. Also, Bruce McCalley has some conflicting information in the online encyclopedia compared to the black book.)

1918-22 non-starter cars did not have an instrument panel because the mag/bat switch was on the coilbox (like the exploded coil box drawings you made with the stamped switch cover) and the lights were controlled by the combination light switch/horn button. The dimmer coil was in the engine compartment, mounted on the firewall.

There was a long discussion here.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/424017.html?1392437787

John Regan and Ron Patterson may be good resources regarding providing a definitive answer when the instrument panel became standard on non-starter cars - 1922 vs 1923.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 05:43 pm:

Martin,

As Erik points out...the written word on the subject yields two different results depending on whether the time line is worked to the left or the time lime is worked to the right.

You were doing so good in clearing the usual minefield on other switches that's why I mentioned this one. I'd listen to John Regan if he pipes in as I believe he actually has a copy of the record of changes for the parts involved and while they don't define things to the day they can be used to surmise a 'probably not before' date.

For you 1919 types...keep beating the drum, keep exchanging information and pictures, because there is a lot of overlap, certain prior assumptions seem to have anecdotal evidence that differs from conventional wisdom and that's a good thing.

My own belief is that there was no such thing as a Highland built 'electrified' 1919 model year open car, but I'm always in the minority on that. The same data used to say it was possible and allowed is the same data that can also be used to say it never happened, not in the model year anyway.

Bruce would be the first one to readily admit that the bible was open to revision at any time as long as it was based on evidence and not just conjecture!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, March 02, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

Mark, I never saw the front of this switch, only the back side. So I concluded that plate would look similar to that used for the ammeter. In the pictures I do have, there is a raised portion of the plate much as I show it here, but I'm beginning to think that mayhap it was flush on the front with a nut block welded to the it's back thus giving the impression that it was indented as I have shown. It would be a way of covering the nuts that held this gadget to the plate...or maybe Ford didn't care all that much how it looked as long as it functioned...I don't know.

Rodger, that's interesting...hmmm guess I've got another switch to draw, lol.

Erik, you're saying that this didn't come out until 1922 or so? That before that year they used the switch with the cover mounted on the coil box, right? Then this change must be that there were more electrified cars coming down the line than non-electrified cars, otherwise Ford would still use the other switch. This way all they had to do was fit the proper device in (ammeter or shunt) and the car goes happily down the line as a custom order. And in 1922 electrified cars were probably more common than the non's. Ok, I'll change that.

George, it may indeed yield two different results, but the one is way more logical than the other, given Ford"s nature I don't doubt that he made provisions to adapt one switch to do the same job rather than make two different switches (the expense would've been illogical to him). The fact that there is one made in 1926 proves this out.

The truth is I listen to all you guys, I copy every picture I can and I keep a rather large file so when I have enough information I can go ahead and draw it. My car is a 1922 touting, and even though it has side lights it also has a starter, because I didn't want to have to try and crank it. Ironically, even though I've got a starter, I have maybe used it all of about 5 times. Now that I drive it more in public, people don't expect me to hop in and stomp on the starter to get her going. So, I toddle around front and crank it...for some reason folks get a kick out of me cranking my car. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 04:25 am:

Ok, how about this one then? Upon examining the photos from Feb. posted by Donnie, I could see plainly that the block plate was actually two plates. One the dimmer mounts to and the other goes in first and covers the hole flush and the nuts that hold the device too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 09:20 am:

Martin: Looking at my original plate it looks like you almost have it right. The only things you have not shown is the 3 nuts on the back side of the switch plate for the 3 screws that mount the resister are spot welded to the front plate. Also the winding in the resistor should show on your drawing as they stick out on both sides of the plates. The cup shaped plate will also have a hole showing in it for the winding to stick thru. The winding are the reason the mount plate is cup shaped. One other thing that we are investigating is the pin out location on the switch. They may be in a different location for starter switches vs non starter switches. Nice looking drawings. As soon as you get this one done don't forget the very rare 1926-27 non starter switch. It may have only been offered in 1926 as I believe that the non starter option was not offered in 1927.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 10:16 am:

Your 23-25 illustration is correct, assuming the 1922 is a '23 model, with the slant windshield. As I mentioned previously, the 18-22 non starter cars still had the switch on the coilbox, and the combination horn and lighting switch on the steering column.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 07:53 pm:

Larry a question on that horn/light switch...does it only turn the lights on or can you dim them from it also (turn one way for on and the other way for dim)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, March 03, 2014 - 08:43 pm:

Donnie, the three nuts on the back side of the plate that hold the ammeter/gadget are captured nuts. But you're saying the plate that the gadget mounts too has a hole in it also? Did you take a picture? I would love to see what it really looks like, I'm just guessing here.

As for the 26-27...it's on my to-do list, lol. As are the 09, 10 & 11-13. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 12:37 am:

Martin-
The combination horn headlight switch does have a dim position. Here is what it looks like on the back side.



Here is the wiring diagram:


The dimmer is mounted on the firewall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 03:01 am:

Keith... so it has 2 positions plus off in the middle right? I know they make this switch as a repro (and it's pricey), does it also work the same way?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 10:16 am:

Keith: Get rid of that awful bolt! If you need an original, I have some NOS ones. Yeah, I know the repro switches are expensive, we make them! They are a lot of work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 10:22 am:

Martin-

The "back" position is off.
Twist one position to the "center" is on.
Twist one more position to "forward" is on.

I do not know which "on" position is the dim position. I will let some who knows tell us instead of speculate.

I do not have a dimmer on my car. I have my headlights wired to a battery, but since I have the magneto horn, I cannot use the combination horn headlight switch.

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, March 04, 2014 - 10:57 pm:

Is there any way to make the center position the "off" rather than the full back?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 08:36 pm:

Martin: I finally got to take some pics of the dimmer/resister. The nuts holding it in place are "captured nuts" like you stated. My old eyes do not see that good anymore. I also took the dimmer apart so you can see how the plate is made. Ill add a few pics of it .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 08:38 pm:

dimmerdimmer 2dimmer 3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 10:03 pm:

Donnie, thank you for those pictures...explains a lot.



This should be right...now, lol.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration