OT - The Selden Cars

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - The Selden Cars
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:32 pm:

I didn't realize it before, but it appears there were three "Selden" cars built for the Selden patent infringement case. Pics and a link to two articles:

Henry Ford in the Ford-Lenoir car at the NY Ford Branch. Gaston Plaintiff (NY Branch Manager) is the third from HF's left, and I think C. H. Wills is on his right.


Henry Ford and George Selden in the Selden car. Is that a cigar in HF's hand?


The third Selden car, built by the A.L.A.M. (Licensed Manufacturers), with a Model K full of lawyers in hot pursuit:


Link to pics and two news stories:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h605rcgws6dsfsb/Selden%20car%20%26%202%20Ks%20%281%29.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:48 pm:

Henry Ford did not pose with George Selden in the "1877" automobile photo.

That is a cut and paste job. Henry Ford was put in the photo after the fact.

The original photo does not include Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 07:32 pm:

That's a really clumsy cut and paste. Makes the entire "article" questionable doesn't it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT J STEINER on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 07:42 pm:

I know where 1 Selden car is right now, unrestored and running just outside Rochester, NY in the burbs close to where the original car factory was. Selden plant was on the east side of the city and the Cunningham Car was on the west side of town.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 08:03 pm:

The cut and paste Henry is from the well known New York photo of Henry Ford sitting in the 1896 Quadricycle. He's been clipped, flipped and touched up.

It's not a cigar in his hand; his index and middle fingers have a gap because that was the position of his hand when was he gripping the Quadricycle tiller handle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 08:38 pm:

Where ever that clip job came from that sure as hell doesn't look a bit like HF. The pose is familiar but that face? Uh-uh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

Sure does look like Henry Ford, because it is Henry Ford....

Unadulterated photo:

1

Henry Ford classic Quadricycle pose in New York

2

Reversed Henry

3

Reversed and retouched Henry now sitting next to Selden

4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 09:25 pm:

That was a "Motor magazine" article about the Selden patent. It does look like a "paste" pic. I was surprised to see Ford and Selden so " comfortable" side by side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 12:07 am:

I read in the book on the Selden suit that the Ford-Lenoir recreation was the better performer of the ones made for the trial. Rumor is, it is somewhere at Greenfield Village.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 01:22 am:

Royce:

The caption for the "cut and paste" states that this was a "motorists dream" part of the magazine where readers were encouraged to send in their pictures and ideas for that section of the magazine. The motorists in this time wanted to see Seldon and Ford get the matter settled and both to move on by putting their differences behind them but the motorists also realized this was a pipe dream since they were bitterly opposed. I didn't realize that the Seldon side was caught falsifying the engine construction with parts inside the motor that were not on the patent application and Ford seemed to prove his case that the Seldon patent was not valid because the thing didn't run but he backed that up with an old French patent on a car that did run and those 2 things together would have to sink the Seldon side for sure since either of them alone would likely have swayed a jury or a judge. Thus the "cut and paste" picture was not presented as an actual picture but was presented to the public as a faked up picture in the section of the magazine where that was the theme captioned "Motorists Dreams"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 02:52 am:

Right down to the added cigar! I'll try to find the "Motor" article.

Thanks John.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 06:28 am:

If you look very carefully at the photo Rob posted you can see the hand on top of the front lamp of the fellow that was removed from the photo that Eric posted.

Once again the forum is amazing with the information that is posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 07:30 am:

Yes, it had the caption but I "chopped" it off when I copied it:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 07:32 am:

I just noticed something, look at the reflection in the window of the original HF with Quad photo.

I smell a new thread......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 04:16 pm:

The same story with another photo of the Selden car with the Model K and two other touring cars, with lawyers, watching the Selden model. The touring to the right of the Selden car is the Model K:



The complete article that appeared in the British publication "Automotor Journal":



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 04:26 pm:

It has been reported numerous times that the"original 1877 Selden" was built at the time the trial started.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 05:32 pm:

In the Quadricycle photo I think I see a policeman with all the buttons on the uniform. Could there also be a K ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

"only one year before it was to expire, the appeals court declared the Selden patent to be invalid, except as to cars powered by the Brayton-type external-compression two-stroke engine described in the patent, which Selden's own expert testified at trial was not actually used by anyone making cars at that time"

The 1877 "Selden" car, according to research that I've read, wasn't built in 1877, but was built later, using the engine as constructed in 1877.

Another rumor is that Selden stole the idea for an internal combustion engine from some poor sucker at the 1872 Philadelphia Centennial Exposition, who had actually built one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

Originally I came across these stories due to finding the Model K pics. As the stories relate, there were two "Selden" cars built by the plaintiff, one by George Selden and one by the A.L.A.M. (Licensed Association). Also seen is Henry Ford's creation of an earlier car, the Lenoir.

Bruce, yes, I originally thought it was the first Model K in the reflection (and started another thread about it). However, I think (as Jerry Van pointed out) the car in the window reflection is a little shorter. It also appears to be a left hand drive if I've reversed the photo correctly.

The photo of Henry Ford sitting in the Lenoir car is taken in front of Ford New York branch, and I believe it was taken in December 1905. News accounts also say the quad and Model K both appeared in front of this store in December 1905. Both cars then are seen at the New York Armory for the 1906 January car show.
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 04:00 am:

Ford kept all of his experimental and racing cars so maybe the Lenoir recreation is still stored at the Henry Ford (if it wasn't auctioned off in the 80's)

Was the Selden "1877" recreation saved somewhere?


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