Who is pouring Babbit these days.

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Who is pouring Babbit these days.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Godfrey on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:53 pm:

looks like I will need the mains poured and the piston rods and caps on the 27 Touring I got in Tx. I am in Tn. I did use a guy in Ga. a few years ago but have lost his info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 06:56 pm:

Chuck, It is Robert Carden he is in Newnan,Ga , i don't have his number.
I use Ron Miller in Shandon, Ohio.Rons Machine, both are about five hours drive.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 07:34 pm:

No matter who pours the mains I always get the rods exchanged from Ron's in Ohio.
Ron's Machine will put oil grooves in the babbit any way you want or they will leave them out, if you like.
At any rate you will get a set of rods that are balanced PERFECTLY and the price is right.
Damn they do good work.
Shipping a block back and forth co$t$ money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

George King III. www.enginerestoration.com. Does a fantastic job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Musegh Kalon on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 11:48 am:

We use J and M Machine for all of our motors, state of the art equipment you won't find anywhere else!
www.jandm-machine.com
Have a look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 12:08 pm:

Jim, how long did you have your motor at your builder?

I would also go with J & M Machine, look at their web site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 12:25 pm:

It was done several years ago so I'm not sure exactly how long he took. I crated up the block with crankshaft, cylinders, camshaft, valves and head along with the pan to be straightened on his jig. I think he had it a couple of months before he sent it back, but I told him I was not in a hurry and to take his time, so I'm not sure if that was a factor. I was very please with his work as I'm sure I would be just as pleased with yours as I have always been impressed with your posts and extensive knowledge of the Model T. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 12:26 pm:

Aaron, How do you know the rods were "balanced perfectly"? Because they told you so, or because you have the proper equipment to check them and verified them yourself?

If all the rods weigh nearly the same, then they were EQUALIZED, not necessarily balanced. If all the crankshaft ends of the rods weigh the same, AND if all the wrist pin ends of the rods weigh the same, AND if the total weight of all the rods are the same, THEN THE RODS ARE BALANCED. I shoot for +/- half a gram. If you think your rods are balanced, just look at them... If there isn't a fair amount of material added or ground away on at least one of the rods, then odds are they are not balanced, just put together in sets where the total weight of each individual rod is roughly equal to the individual weights of the rest. This doesn't have much to do with balance, and in many cases isn't even a good starting point for bringing a set into balance...

Here is my standing offer: If anyone obtains a set of connecting rods from Ron's or any of the major vendors, and you are near enough to me that you can come here in person; I will check the straightness, center distance, width, alignment of centers, and balance, while you watch, free of charge, and explain what is wrong with the rods and why. Occasionally, new rods can be straightened to make them usable for $10-$20 of labor time.

If your rods are nearly perfect, and nearly perfect sets of rods with top quality 100% new babbitt are once again available from Ron's or any of the other vendors, I would be very happy to buy them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 08:27 pm:

I took the rods to a very popular machine shop to have them balanced on new, modern precise balancing equipment.
They said all the big ends weighed the same and all of the small ends weighed same and the complete rods weighed the same and they could not improve on anything.
Ron's has enough rods so they don't have to weld bolts to the sides of some and grind half the rod away on others.
Since my sixty years of building engines has not left me as smart as you Adam when it comes to mechanical issues I will not post facts and opinions about engine building anymore.
I'll just keep info about who has the good stuff and for the right price to myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Godfrey on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 09:58 pm:

Thanks for all the Info, Aaron thanks for your post On Ron's aswell. IMO I don't think that the Model T engine parts were balanced to perfection when they where built. and they have been running for many years with out much fault. Heck I have even heard stories of them knocking when they fired them up to drive them out of the plant. Henry Didn't have all this high tech stuff we have now. He made the motors and cars so everyone could own one and be able to fix them in the field or in the barn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 11:44 am:

Aaron, I'm very open minded and know that products can change. Maybe something has changed for the better since I encountered about 20 sets of rods with various issues between about 2007 & 2010. Or it is very possible that you got lucky and got a very good set of rods. And it might be possible that recently all the quality issues have been addressed and resolved by the manufacturer since the last time I bought rods. Who knows. From what you say, there is no doubt that you are an expert mechanic and know what you are doing. Lots of people here are very talented in a variety of arts and I have a great deal of respect for that. The only thing I am doing by posting about issues I have noticed with connecting rods is sharing my knowledge that there have been some frequent issues with commercially available re-babbitted rods and that 99% of hobbyists and some professional engine builders have no idea there is anything wrong with them because they don't have the equipment to check them and also because people have a tendency to think "How could there be anything wrong with it? It's brand new". I figured the issue with rods hasn't been corrected because I ordered in a set of rods for a customer in July 2013 because I was out of the ones I make and hadn't planned on making anymore till I did my next batch of motors over the winter. The "new" rods I received were all bent and twisted to some degree. The best one was maybe only out .005, but the rest were around .015". Not to mention that there was a variance in the center to center lengths. Please also bear in mind that I'm not self-promoting for people to buy my connecting rods. I actually really don't want to sell anybody my rods unless they are part of a complete engine and trans I'm building and I have only made a few exceptions.

The telltale sign of a bent rod is little chunks of babbitt falling off the front and/or rear "thrust faces" of one or more connecting rods after the motor has been in service maybe 1500 miles. If all the rod thrust surfaces look good and no adjustments need to be made by the time someone has around 5,000 miles on their motor, their rods are probably just fine.

Rods with around .010" bend & twist could probably make it somewhere in the 2,500 to 5,000 mile range before they start to make noise and that is two decades of use for 75% of the people who drive T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

Contact Jack Putnam in Ohio if you want the job done RIGHT !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 03:26 pm:

I had Ron's Machine Shop do my rebuilding. They do excellent work. Price is about average for most complete rebuilding that I've seen. My only complaint was that it took what seemed like forever to get my engine done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 01:12 pm:

I've been getting model A and model T rods from Ron's for about 10 years. Never a problem, but I am not building engines with babbitted rods everyday, or every week. Not even every month.
I always get the rods from Ron Miller's and have always taken them to Stirtz Machine in Oakland to have them checked for alignment and balance.
Since Stirtz is out of business and gone (retired) from now on I will not have the rods double checked, I will just get them from Ron's and install them right out of the package.
Ron's has always had a very good reputation with folks in the eastern and southern states.
I started buying from them after reading the good remarks about Ron's on other sites and from the word from engine builders in other areas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 01:54 pm:

I will just get them from Ron's and install them right out of the package."END QUOTE"

That would be very foolish no mater where they came from!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 07:45 pm:

When I buy a set of balanced and aligned rods why should I have them checked by somebody else when all the times I had them checked before there was never a problem?
Ron's is run by machinests, not the government.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John E Cox on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 08:25 pm:

You are probably to far away for Wayne But Wayne Ringgenberg in Everton Missouri does an excellent job. He did my Model B engine and I was very impressed with his work and knowledge. He is a super nice person and anyone going through the area should stop just to talk to him. leaving Springfield Missouri going north on 160 at the top of the hill just before Everton you will see Waynes Automotive (retired) on the right. It looks like an old Model T garage. Ask to see his model T car, truck
and memorabilia collection.
He is so active in the Model T world and so helpful to any and all that I look for his name every year as the Rosenthal award winner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 08:34 pm:

So by what you are saying, you don't check spark plug gap, Ring gap, piston ring grooves for dings, ect. because someone should have done that because they are new or rebuilt.


We, and other machine shops that we sell bearings to other then Model T and Model A have yet to find a set of rods out of the box that didn't need straightening.

Unless you can win the lotto any time you want to, I don't think you can either.

A slightly bent rod will wear a cylinder long before it's time, and you will never hear the noise.

There is not just twist and bend to make a rod straight, there it also off set, that nobody checks if they even know what that means.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Godfrey on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 11:14 pm:

Wow !!!! all the different thoughts on rods. I guess if I was making a show car or a race car I would try to improve on what Henry thought was a good product. The last complete motor I had built was about 16 years ago by Bob gustofison < spelled wrong he lived in Maggie Valley and has since passed. I am still running that motor in my 27 touring with the coil mans coils in her and the only thing I have done to her in 16 years is keep her oil changed. and replaced the new day timer one time. it still runs as good now as it did when it was first built. oh and a set of tires. the ole saying if it ain't broke don't fix it. I may be wrong in my thinking but one must have trust in the person he is dealing with. with out that you have nothing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

Why are you smart asses trying to make me look stupid?
When did I say I don't check spark plug gaps or ring gaps? How is the ring maker going to figure out the ring gap without seeing the block? Of course I check and adjust ring gap and other stuff you are suggesting I don't do.
I have been rebuilding engines 60 years and have a good reputation, and will still have after you two jerks are trying to give me a bad one.
What in hell does any of it have to do with how good the rods are that come from Ron's?
When I buy a set of rebuilt rods I expect them to be rebuilt, not bent twisted, etc. I have always had them rechecked but from now on when they come from Ron's I won't bother.
So the rods I picked up locally last week for an MGTD I should take to another machine shop to make sure the guy that straightened them and resized one big end did a good job. Then I should take them to somebody else to make sure the 2nd guy checked them right. How many checks should I have done before I take them to have them balanced?
Then I should take them to a second balancer to make sure they are balanced OK? What hogwash.
Are you two guys telling me that you are the only ones capable of telling if rods are done right?
So you think my local machine shop that checked Ron's work maybe can't tell for sure if they are OK? I gotta tear the engine down and send them to you two guys, one after the other?
Adam says he bought so many batches of bent rods but notice he only implies he got them from Ron's. He doesn't say where he got them.
But I guess if he got them someplace else that still proves that Ron's are not done right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Godfrey on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:32 pm:

Aaron I hope you are not tossing that towards me!
I don't think I said anything out of line in any of my post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

Dan Hatch is just east of Birmingham, Al.
Class act in every way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John E Cox on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:38 pm:

Good for you Aaron,
Adam was polite in his post but Herm was his usual my shorts are to tight and its your fault self.
I don't think that I have ever read a post by him that was not offensive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:41 pm:

When you think about it,it is pretty amazing Henry built 15 million engines without the help of all these modern machine shops?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 09:49 pm:

Lord what a fiasco this thread turned into.

I guess no matter WHERE rebuilt rods come from, NO EXCEPTIONS, one is supposed to have someone else check them.
According to some here NOBODY in the U.S. is rebuilding rods that can be trusted.

Nice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 11:14 pm:

I have checked three sets by installing them in my engines. So far everything has checked out just fine.

I don't think the Lord participated in this fiasco.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 01:26 am:

In the first place, there was only one rod modern aligner that will work, or goes small enough to do Model T rods, unless you are using something from the 19 teens, or 20's.

As far as for building engines for 60 years, dad used to tell of a guy that bought a Model T new and drove it all his life, and said he still couldn't drive.

The fact is boys, nobody checks there rods for alignment, and the normal answer they give is well our rod machine bores them straight, and that answer is B.S., because there is no rod machine on the planet that will bore a rod straight enough for assembly, unless by accident, and that Griffery you wouldn't know if you aren't boring rods and have a rod alignment machine, worthy of the check.

Checking rod alignment is way more important then checking flywheel balance.

Daron, Ford didn't use out of alignment rods.

That is why when you got rods from the from the factory, Wilson had made rod aligner's from the Model through the V-8.

Seams like the only guys I have ever debated on this subject is the ones that don't know anything about rod alignment.

Ted, don't be a Dumas!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 02:09 am:

My name isn't Griffery and my first name isn't Daron. Or have I been living all these year not knowing what my name is?
So if model T rods can not be done right why bother to check them?
How do you know Ron's does not have equipment to do them right?
How do you know my machinest did not have equipment to do them? Because you think you are the only person on earth that can do them right?
I have rebuilt many engines that were still going after 200,000 miles. What does that have to do with a guy that can't drive well?
My last statement on this thread:
I will only argue so long with a bull headed shit disturber.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 12:14 pm:

My name isn't Griffery and my first name isn't Daron. Or have I been living all these year not knowing what my name is?"END QUOTE"


1. Try Jack Daron! Next time ask a 5 year old neighbor to explain a post to you.


Experience!


I have rebuilt many engines that were still going after 200,000 miles. "END QUOTE"


Model T engines with over 200,000 miles on them, "Simply Amazing"!


My last statement on this thread:
I will only argue so long with a bull headed shit disturber."END QUOTE"

Good Choice, You have been out of Ammunition a long time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 12:46 pm:

Herm, a question if I may...

Do you talk this same way in person with family, employees and customers?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 01:31 pm:

We also have seen bent distorted rods coming out of freshly rebuilt engines. Customers have complained about knocking and after taking the engines apart they're amazed to see the wear on the piston skirts from a bent rod.
It ran like a dream until it exploded.!

Not to jump in the fire but when we buy engine parts or anything else for that matter long gone are the days you take anything for granted.

For example: "I just bought a set of adjustable lifters for a 1940 V8,I'd need an air hammer to adjust them" sent them back.

Whether it be USA or ports unknown clearly it's in the MACHINIST's best interest to make sure everything is perfect if not then it's his fault for not taking a minute to inspect it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 01:45 pm:

Herm, a question if I may...

Do you talk this same way in person with family, employees and customers? "END QUOTE"

Don't have to, don't have any of those kind or people who just don't get it, and give out Bogus Information for others to Replicate that I deal with.

95% of the people I deal with are well known engine builders, they already know the importance of checking parts before their name go's on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 11:08 pm:

If Ford had insisted on everything being perfect, we would still be waiting for the first Model T. There's a difference between being correct and being perfect.

Herm, I am sorry you have to put up with us riffraff on the forum. Perhaps you should move to another venue where your advice would be more appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 12:41 am:

My take,especially for the new guys,is that the Model T Ford engine is probably one of the most forgiving pieces of machinery you will ever encounter. It has been used and abused by many generations of people,and yet it still runs,in spite of us. Read the book and try your best to get things right,hope and a little prayer doesn't hurt either. In a perfect world Herm could build us all an engine and then we could all go for a ride. I am sure he does good work and knows what he's doing. He just may not be the only one.. (Self excluded)Happy motoring and have fun. (that's the main thing.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 12:49 am:

To much work to do here.

Has nothing to do with perfect, just with doing it the way it should be. Ford didn't use rods that were out of alignment.

Ted, you are still a Dumas, what may help you is get a K.R.Wilson catalog and read what you have no clue or perception of now.

Then maybe your posts wouldn't contain so much nonsense!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 08:22 am:

In a sense, both these guys are right in their arguments. Yes, tolerances were kept generous in the interest if mass production, and variances in quality control among the vendors probably dictated that as well. Can you just slap some parts together and get things to run acceptably...maybe? It could run just great, but for who knows how long. I just got through assembling a Ruckstell rear end. Would I be happy with .025/.030 slop between the rig and pinion gear. Heck no! I wasn't real thrilled about setting it at .0085, but that's about the bottom end of the recommendations in Chaffin's book.

Bottom line is this: most of us have invested a substantial amount of treasure into restoring our cars and getting them ready for the road. Why not take the time and spend the extra dollars to do it right? That way you can have a car that is dependable, and can be passed down to generations of drivers who can enjoy it as well. I view that as my obligation to preserve living history for future generations.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration