OT - Is this a photo of the first Model K, taken in 1905?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - Is this a photo of the first Model K, taken in 1905?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 08:01 am:

Erik J. posted this pic on the "Selden" thread:



Notice the reflection of the building across the street in the glass storefront. It's the same building as seen in these two pics below:





All three photos are taken in front of the Ford New York branch building.

Now, read the account published Dec 31, 1905 below. It says the Quad and Ford six cylinder were seen together in front of the Ford NY branch office a few days before. I think this article and the photo of HF and the Quad are from the same time period:



If the reflection seen in the first pic (close up below) is a Model K, it's the earliest we've seen a photo of a K. It's probably the prototype or one of the first made (Bob Trevan has K #2). The car in the reflection does appear to have the "signature" planetary gear box at the top of the steering column (the first Ford to use this steering system, that remained unchanged through the T era):



Now, if we only had a wider angle shot that included the car in the reflection. Thanks Erik.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 11:21 am:

Rob,

I think the "reflection car" in the quad photo may not be a K. Look how close the front and back seats are spaced. Also, looks like the steering column is at too step an angle.

I find the Model K photo interesting in that there appears to be another Model K parked behind it. Also, the window reflection shows a Model K. We might be led to believe it's simply the reflection of the K that is the subject of the photo. However, the reflection car appears to have a top with rods, or straps, going to the front of the chassis. It also appears to have a mother-in-law seat. Perhaps the reflected image is of the car parked behind?

As to the car being the first K, is that an early K? Didn't the early ones have the weird radiator with the high upper tank. Didn't they also have the very curvaceous king-of-the-Belgians body? Also, if that's the first K, is the one parked behind it the second K?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 11:40 am:

Jerry,

The first photo relates to the article (I probably should have placed them together ). The quad photo blown up shows a large car, and yes, the rear seat is closer than the Model K shown in the second pic (probably taken in 1907/08). I used it (07 K) to show the Ford branch building front. The second K seen in the reflection in 1907/08 pic is a K roadster with top and windshield, also parked in front of the Ford branch store.

The last pic that is blown up shows a car but the radiator is not seen. The body looks shorter than the 07 K, and the 1906 K was six inches shorter than the 07/08 K (114 in wheel base vs. 120 in wb). The item that leads me to think it's possibly a K is the larger "canister" where the steering planetary gears are. No other car had this type of (patent applied for) steering gear.

I don't think the lines of a Victoria body would show up with this poor quality copy of a reflection. Maybe Erik has a higher resolution photo that we could get a better enlargement of. All guess work at this point.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 04:40 pm:

Rob,

Which model is in the third picture? It looks like a Model A with a short hood. Is it a variant of the Model C?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 05:07 pm:

Thomas,
That is the Ford-Lenoir car. Ford found car specs invented in the 1860 s and built it to demonstrate that an operable car was patented before the Selden car and ensuing patent (I'm paraphrasing, someone correct me or fill in the blanks).

Two period news articles about the Selden patent suit and photos. the second article says Ford used a Model A body on the Lenoir car:

Excerpt from the second article


https://www.dropbox.com/s/h605rcgws6dsfsb/Selden%20car%20%26%202%20Ks%20%281%29.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 08:02 pm:

Jerry,

I tried to improve the car reflection pic, and I think your right. The steering column does see to inclined to be a Model K. Oh well, I can always wish....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 08:04 pm:

I think the car is also a left hand drive. It looks like the shift lever is on the left side of the car, and the steering column may be on the left side of the coil box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 02:50 am:

Rob! Reflection. Left becomes right. The car is a right hand drive.
Now if I could only say for certain what it is.
Great stuff Rob! Thank you.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, March 07, 2014 - 07:30 am:

Wayne,
I thought that was a possibility too. However if you look at the original photo (HF and quad), the "Restaurant" sign in the reflection is reversed, as I think it should be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 10:47 am:

The picture of the Model K in front of the New York Ford agency was taken in 1907. The people in the Model K are Henry Ford, New York Ford agency manager Gaston Plantiff, New York business man Elwood Rice, and James Couzens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 11:44 am:

If you read the thread, the photo of the quad with reflection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 11:56 am:

The Selden test vehicles were delivered to the court in New York in the late spring of 1907.

The Selden ALAM built vehicles were operated on the track at Guttenberg, New Jersey on Friday,June 14, 1907.

The Ford "Lenoir" car was first operated in New York city on July 27, 1907. Fred Allison drove it
between West Fifty-Fourth Street and lower Central Park.

No way the pictures were taken in 1905, so the entire premise of this thread is dubious at best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 01:28 pm:

Royce,
Dubious? If you bother to read this thread, instead of trying to challenge every thread I'm involved with, you would have read that the photo beginning this thread first appeared in a previous thread concerning the Selden Patent.

The photo, as I wrote, was taken in front of the Ford New York branch, probably in December 1905. The reflection in the mirror of the photo is the subject of the thread.

Go back, read it, and if you are unable to understand, post your questions. Don't call the subject matter "dubious" because you are unwilling or unable to read or comprehend it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 01:38 pm:

Sorry Rob, that dog won't hunt. Problem is that the picture was not taken in 1905. It was taken in 1910.

The picture of Henry on the quadricycle is from the Henry Ford. Their catalogue of the image is as follows:

Object Name: Photographic print

Object Type: Photographs

Subject Date: 1910

Creator: Spooner & Wells, Inc.

Place of Creation: United States, Michigan, Detroit

Creator Notes: Originally photographed by Spooner & Wells.

Material: Paper (Fiber product) | Linen (Material)

Dimensions: Height: 7.5 in | Width: 10.5 in |

Keywords: Spooner & Wells, Inc. | United States, Michigan, Detroit | Ford, Henry, 1863-1947 | United States, New York, New York | Automobiles | Firsts | Inventions | Inventors | Photographic prints | Photographs | Quadricycle (Automobile) | Cars

Collection Title: General Photographs series

Object ID: P.833.271

Item Location: Benson Ford Research Center - Collections

Credit: From the Collections of The Henry Ford. Gift of Ford Motor Company.

Link:
http://collections.thehenryford.org/Collection.aspx?objectKey=271400


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 02:00 pm:

Royce,
That may be. I, nor the first poster (that this photo was posted to) knew the photo date. That was the reason the thread is titled "IS THIS A PHOTO OF THE FIRST MODEL K, TAKEN IN 1905? That is a question mark. I was asking the question. That is followed with the news account of a Ford Model K and the quadracycle seen at the New York Branch, published December 31, 1905.

That is the premise of this thread. Again, read the damn thing......

Then, show me the reference that says Charles Sorensen was provided a driver by Henry Ford between 1906 and 1908.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 03:22 pm:

I've answered the question. Your newspaper clipping from 1905 has nothing to do with the photos in this thread, all of which were taken from 1907 - 1910.

By the way, here's a picture I have not seen you post. It is the 1907 Model K owned by the Henry Ford.





Object Name: Automobile

Object Type: Objects

Date Made: 1907

Summary: The expensive Model K moved Ford Motor Company into the high-priced market, something Henry Ford didn't like. Priced at $2,500, the six-cylinder vehicle was a slow seller, further convincing Henry that low-priced cars targeted to the mass market were the company's future.

Creator: Ford Motor Company

Place of Creation: United States, Michigan, Detroit

Material: Metal | Wood (Plant material) | Brass (Alloy) | Glass (Material) | Leather | Rubber (Material)

Dimensions: Height: 67.5 in | Width: 73.5 in | Length: 169 in |

Keywords: Ford Motor Company | United States, Michigan, Detroit | Ford automobile | Automobiles | Cars | Touring cars

Object ID: 00.3.2425

Item Location: Not Currently on Exhibit

Credit: From the Collections of The Henry Ford.

Link:
http://collections.thehenryford.org/Collection.aspx?objectKey=202993


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 05:26 pm:

Royce,
You, and THF, ARE WRONG.

It is obviously a cut out of the photograph at the top of this thread, and is not a photograph of Henry Ford driving his quadracycle in 1910. This photograph appeared in the January 11, 1906 Motor World:



The volume heading, page 825, dated January 11, 1906.



Either Henry Ford not only invented a working car, he also invented a "way back machine", or you are wrong.

Which is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 09:50 am:

Rob, I prostrate myself before you in apology. I should never have believed what I read on the Henry Ford web site.

Now let's see if you can be intellectually honest. Please accept the fact that the Model K's planetary transmission is cheaper and inferior to the sliding gear transmission used by the majority of the automotive industry for cars of that class.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 09:58 am:

Apology accepted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:41 am:

Well, I have learned a few things from this thread. Wayne, you are correct, I forgot to reverse the car. We are seeing the side closest to the window (reflection, so I think the car is actually facing the other way, and the steering and shift lever are on the right side:



As Jerry said, the steering column angle looks too upright and the body too short for a Model K. Yet the car does look large, and it appears to have a shift lever like NRS and K.

Due to Royce posting and writing that it was a 1910 photo, I was able to find a publication showing the same image dated January 11, 1906. We also know it is in front of the Ford branch store in New York. To make it to press my guess is it is at the latest the first week in January. We also know the Quadracycle was in New York and seen (news report) at the Ford branch before December 31 1905.

And, with the photo Royce posted, we now see the hood for the first time:



The radiator definitely is not the early "pig nosed" radiator the first few Model K had. It does, however look similar to a Model B radiator.

So, maybe it's a Model B parked in front of the Ford branch store?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 05:33 pm:

The window trim of the building behind the quadricycle in the first picture of this thread is different from the other pictures. I also believe I see some architectural differences in the reflected building. Now some of these differences could be attributed to a span of a few years, and still be the same (or very close to the same) location (by very close, I mean a few yards away).
Just some observations, There's some interesting sleuthing going on here.!


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