1915 Model T First Time Out of Garage in ?? years

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1915 Model T First Time Out of Garage in ?? years
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodney Aspenson on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 03:53 pm:

Found out what loose steering linkage can do as we turned onto the backstreet... squealed the front tires going around corner and almost went over the curb...
Be sure to turn volume up!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3vHaHKbb24


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:10 pm:

Laughing and smiling....thats what it is about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:49 pm:

Looks like a '14 runabout with a couple happy guys inside. Nice!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:54 pm:

Rodney,

It almost looks like your kingpins are pitched forward. In other words, I'm asking if your caster angle might be reversed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 05:43 pm:

Neat! Sounds like things are falling off or fan is hitting the radiator. So what is the build date? Could be an early 15 with left over 14 body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

Rodney,

From your profile this looks like your 15th posting. From the U-Tube it looks like another chassis with wheels and tires is parked in front of the garage and there are spare wheels with tires on them in the garage along with fenders etc.. And in a previous posting you said “It's been on my '15 for about a year…..” And a different posting “I put a "Z" head on my 1915 Roadster Pickup last fall.” So if you are an old head with the T’s that’s great and please skip the rest of my posting – it has some safety comments about the steering etc. which as an old head with Model Ts (also the N,R,S, & SR cars were virtually the same set up) you will already be familiar with.

First, I would recommend do not drive it again until you get the steering corrected. A couple of quick observations. First the car’s steering appears to have gone full lock to the right in less than 1/2 second. Second, you mentioned that it was the first time out of the garage – implies first time driven as currently set up. Third it appears to have the below the axle wishbone. In general I believe the below the wishbone is a better set up please see Joseph Galamb one of the original Ford engineers for his take on the improvement at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31231.html the page posted from “Tin Lizzie.” But if you do not look at the instructions on how to assemble the front axle it is very easy to install the spring perches incorrectly. That was politely mentioned by Jerry Van above. If you have those spring perches installed incorrectly you front axle will have a negative rather than a positive caster. And like the front wheels on an American shopping cart, the wheels will try to turn around. They will be stopped by the spindle arm hitting the front axle – but it will try to turn the front wheels 180 degrees around. [Another caution for new folks – when you are backing up the Model T that has the front axle correctly installed and adjusted back up slowly and hold the steering wheel firmly. The caster is 5 1/2 degrees (pre-balloon wheels) when going forward – but that is a negative 5 1/2 when backing up. The wheels will go hard over / max turn very easily.]

For a detailed explanation of how to set up the front axle/front end/steering please see one of the many posting such as: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40382.html



Two photos below were posted by Mac Cole showing the proper installation of the spring perches with the boss to the back on passenger side:



Below shows boss to the back on driver's side:





It is easy to install it wrong – see:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80333.html?1233523419

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/43451.html

You can also install the spindles on the wrong sides. The outer bearing should tend to loosen as the car goes forward rather than tighten.

Also the drag links were different lengths over time see Royce’s excellent posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/300409.html Be sure to use the proper one for your front end set up.

Note worn kingpins, worn tie rods, worn drag link and oval shaped rather than round ball on the pitman arm, worn steering gears, loose steering column, flexible dash, loose steering connection at the frame, worn steering shaft key ways, loose steering wheel, or loose pitman can also lead to a similar problem if there is a lot of slack in the steering. In that case you have all the slack taken out as you initially turn the steering wheel to start the turn. But as soon as the T gets started turning the front wheels can jump a little bit further so instead of the steering wheel pushing the wheels in the direction of the turn the spindles are now starting to swing further into the turn until the steering wheel now stops the wheels from turning further in the same direction. With minimal to no play in the steering things work well. With a lot of play it can become more of an issue. And with a lot of play and the caster set improperly you can flip a T at a slow speed and very easily flip it as the speed increases. So with your T parked, when you turn the steering wheel you should see the front wheels start to move (yes in the proper direction and not reversed – see Royce’s “Why your steering could go over center above.”)


It appears your steering went hard over to the right when you made the turn. Looking at the video it appears to me you were going slow. It looks like it took under half a second between the time the front wheels just started to turn until they went full lock to the right. I believe a more top heavy T could have easily gone over or if you were going faster you may have rolled. That is not good for people, cars, or our relationship with the public. And it is not typical of a properly adjusted Model T.


It is easy to install it wrong – see:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/80333.html?1233523419

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/43451.html

You can also install the spindles on the wrong sides. The outer bearing should tend to loosen as the car goes forward rather than tighten.

Also the drag links were different lengths over time see Royce’s excellent posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/300409.html Be sure to use the proper one for your front end set up.

Note worn kingpins, worn tie rods, worn drag link and oval shaped rather than round ball on the pitman arm, worn steering gears, loose steering column, flexible dash, loose steering connection at the frame, worn steering shaft key ways, loose steering wheel, or loose pitman can also lead to a similar problem if there is a lot of slack in the steering. In that case you have all the slack taken out as you initially turn the steering wheel to start the turn. But as soon as the T gets started turning the front wheels can jump a little bit further so instead of the steering wheel pushing the wheels in the direction of the turn the spindles are now starting to swing further into the turn until the steering wheel now stops the wheels from turning further in the same direction. With minimal to no play in the steering things work well. With a lot of play it can become more of an issue. And with a lot of play and the caster set improperly you can flip a T at a slow speed and very easily flip it as the speed increases. So with your T parked, when you turn the steering wheel you should see the front wheels start to move (yes in the proper direction and not reversed – see Royce’s “Why your steering could go over center above.”)


It appears your steering went hard over to the right when you made the turn. Looking at the video it appears to me you were going slow. It looks like it took under half a second between the time the front wheels just started to turn until they went full lock to the right. I believe a more top heavy T could have easily gone over or if you were going faster you may have rolled. That is not good for people, cars, or our relationship with the public. And it is not typical of a properly adjusted Model T.

Below photos taken from the U-tube. Times are in yellow relate to the time on the video.





Image below is 1:16









Below is first 1:17 shot







Below is first 1:18 shot -- you can see the driver's head and blue shirt over the top of the shed.



Also it appears the emergency brake is not connected on the passenger’s side. If that is also true on the driver’s side, if some items fail in the drive line (axle key, ring gear, rear axle thrust washers etc.) you will not have any brakes during your test drive. [Note when I was younger and bullet proof, I didn’t car much about the brakes – they just were not that important to me back then. My goal was to drive and who cared about having a back up for stopping. But reading more about the regular brake failure due to several different items in the driveline failing – a set of lined emergency brake shoes sounds like a good investment.]

Again the above is for new folks to Ts. If you already know all that great. And it looks like you will have a nice running T.

Respectfully submitted in case you are new to Ts.

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rodney Aspenson on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 12:27 am:

Thanks for the EXCELLENT & helpful information!!! Actually the test drive was from Sept.11, 2010 Since then we've done a major restoration of the vehicle and the steering linkage is really nice and tight now... Crankshaft broke last fall, so I put a Skat crank in and soon as it warms up enough up here in Wisconsin, I hope to finish the rebuild and get it on the road again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 08:06 am:

Rodney,

If you have a chance, would you please let us know if you found out what caused the hard over steering to happen back in 2010? I.e. do you know if the spring perches were installed correctly when it happened? Or do you think it was caused by the worn other parts?

Also if you have a later photo showing the progress on the car, it would be nice to see how it came out. I'm glad you got it sorted out and hopefully the weather will warm up sooner rather than later.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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