1922 T with VIN and Missouri Title Challenges ... HELP?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1922 T with VIN and Missouri Title Challenges ... HELP?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Hacker on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:20 pm:

Recently purchased (3 months now) a 1922 Runabout. Was given a receipt, with the title to follow "when found". Seller's grandson never could find it. Sellers contacted DMV and could not produce evidence it had ever been titled by the former ELDERLY owner. There is NO number on the block above the water inlet (a replaced engine?) so I finally contacted Missouri DMV and was eventually told that I should go get a Declaratory Judgement from our Circuit Court to petition the Missouri DMV to issue a title. I have got an attorney, visited with our county Sheriff who is to come by and verify the car and write a statement saying none have been stolen, am getting an Affidavit from Sellers that they have owned it for ___ years. Any advice??? Would like information on the exact identification of the car if possible such as identifying characteristics of a 1922 and where any other markings might be. What is the difference in a low/tall radiator? "Radiused" windshield? The "T" has the steering column support bracket, the floor starter button, and a metal dash... information?Ford Runabout with pickup bed built for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, March 08, 2014 - 04:49 pm:

We need some good photos of car to identify it. 1922 is a transitional year. Pics of both side of engine, photo of arm rest end cap, is gas tank round or oval, is windshield sloping or straight type. does it have a wood or steel firewall. That should give us a good indication as to actually what you have. In Arkansas all you need is a bill of sale and 3 receipts to show you have worked on it to get antique tags and a title. If you know someone in Arkansas to title it in there name and then resell it back to you may work. good luck...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 05:16 am:

Yeah that's a problem, like Donnie said, 22 was a transitional year. You'll find things that are both 21, 22 and were carried on through 23. My car didn't have a registration either...it was never registered. Places like Missir-ah and as in my case Oklahoma (especially if there was a farm involved) good chance they were never registered, because they were considered "farm equipment". The fact that your motor doesn't have a serial number on above the water inlet, means it was replaced...but not by a dealer otherwise they would've stamped the old engines serial number on the new motor.

Your car has a lot of the same characteristics as my car does with the exception of the fancy paint job, lol. But judging by the front fenders, I'd say it's a 22...the 23's have a small skirt along the front leading edge of the front fender where it mounts to the frame under the head light, yours doesn't appear to have that.

As for the DMV I think you're being jerked around a bit...a bill of sale should be all the proof you need and if they needed more a signed affidavit (notarized) that they sold it in "as is" condition, to you on whatever date, should pretty much cinch it. All the DMV really has to do from there on is assign a vin to it and mount a plate on the metal someplace (preferably someplace the hood covers...like a sill plate), then take your money and issue the tags. That's what they did to me here in Calfunny.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 07:15 am:

Larry, "I have an attorney" Is this a special att. or
just anyone? This may be my soution as to sue
this dump state for making my like misrable. Here
paper work noterized, inspected signed by police,
a blood sample is no good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 10:03 am:

Larry: If it was me I would also try and find a junk, cracked , scrap engine block for the year you finally decide it is. Then stamp that # on your block. It would make the car more correct and would be easier to resell later. I would also check into the "title" companys. Titles Unlimited is one that comes to mind. I used them years ago, but not sure if they are still around. For a small fee they title the car in their "bill of sale only" state and then retitle it back to you. You could also find a good complete engine to use for a spare and then use its engine number for your car. good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Hacker on Sunday, March 09, 2014 - 04:59 pm:

Thanks ... it's such a "hassle" that I'm ready to let someone else deal with it and forget the whole deal. It takes the fun out of it entirely!

As to finding another block with a 22 number, I'm afraid that number might bring a new set of issues with it and then I would have my block STAMPED for those issues next!

I appreciate all the assistance and welcome anything else anyone can tell me about this T, or the titling challenges...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, March 10, 2014 - 04:28 pm:

I know this is going to sound simplistic and I'm sure you have probably thought of this but .....
If you've only had this car 90 days, you obviously didn't put the license plate on it, right?
Somebody's name is associated with that license plate and somebody had to show proof of ownership to get it. Follow the license plate as far back as you can. Somewhere there has to be an engine number or a state issued serial number associated with that license plate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Hacker on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 12:05 pm:

Nope ... that plate is just an "old 1922" plate that was put on it to display. If you are saying to trace THAT plate back, who knows what year car that was on? Maybe a truck, maybe a 1916, maybe a ...?

There WAS an Historic tag on it that I "thought" was the solution. Turns out the elderly man who owned this car previously had it registered to some other car and was just driving illegally on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 12:42 pm:

One would think that a signed "Statement of Facts" (That's the California name for the form). That Details the KNOWN information on the car by a family member would get you a title. The FACTS needed are; Car was owned by the relative since XXXX date (if they only remember the year, have them randomly pick a month/day--who will ever be able to verify that!), was not operated on the highway/road since XXXX date (It's likely the owner was unable to drive it for some time if in failing health-and the family should be able to remember that), was stored at XXX address since that date, the owner passed away on XXXX date, and the estate representative (person filling out the form) has the right to sell the vehicle for the Estate. You also will need a Bill of Sale (another form) stating the price and date of sale And a Request for Duplicate Title asking for a title to be RECREATED for the vehicle (if you ask for a new title, usually that mucks up the works a lot, at least here).
Here in CA, that is enough to get a title--but results may vary in your state!! I have four titled cars done this way, as the paperwork on one was lost in a house fire, the other was lost due to death, the third was a ranch car that was never titled, and the forth was lost to history (car was sitting in a side field for decades, even the owner had no idea as it was there when they bought the property!
Good Luck--don't give up, and remember to NEVER volunteer information--just act dumb! If you are having difficulty getting the year of Manufacture, have a set of judging standards or the book, 'Car That Changed The World' either or both should suffice as knowledgeable documentation. Of course, somewhere along the line, the State will want to affix a number to the frame (a number attached to the body is technically not legal, as bodies can be changed). Under the floorboards (where Ford eventually stamped them) is a good place as it can be easily viewed, but normally is hidden.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 02:09 pm:

my way ah the power of a printer. print a 2014 on
any plate and go. You have seen my prior posts,
this can not be done in masshole. I'm just an old
man with his last ride. If I get stopped, arested,
car towed wow clean clothes food a shower then life
is good. Attention towel head bombers bomb Boston
RMV or I shall try Although like to get out of this dump i'm all broked up ON the good side of this
dispicabale weather been 3 weeks , one turn prerrs
like my cat............Oh David says never titled,
Mass dump wants me to dig a grave of 1943 for a
bill of sale from the women they want me to stick
a pin in her hand and sign it? not me so dont
worry just drive the thing... Again when caught
whatch tv Its called throwin a mokey wrench
in the defucnt system. I have spoken samuel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Mettling on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

Hi Larry,

I have a Missouri registration for a 1922 Model T on a paper card. Would this help you possibly? I don't remember if it has a VIN listed on it, don't think so. Would that help build your case?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 04:10 pm:

Do a google search of Broadway Title Company or go to www.broadwaytitle.com See if they can help you. I have never used them. I used to use Titles Unlimited several years ago. I could not find there info but this company does the same thing they did. They can not issue a new number. That is why I use a old junk block to get my number from. I never restamp the # till after the paper work is done. Your PM asked about maybe someone else having the number. If you have a block in your posession with an old correct number on it, the other person is the one in trouble. There is some risk of problems almost any way you go. good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 04:12 pm:

Larry, I have been told that you can get an affadavit from a company known as: Broadway Title, they are in Alabama. Alabama was a state that did not have titles until 1972. A person can contact them and they will get you documents to get a title. You can decide what year you want and you can use the block serial number. In model type, you could just put T. Contact them on the internet and see. I was told it cost around $150.00.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mat Klemp on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 05:47 pm:

if you search the SEMAaction network. they have a section of information for titles in each state. a bonded title might work in your case.
http://www.bipac.net/semaga/TagTitleToolbox_MO.pdf
Mat


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 07:38 pm:

i did the alabama title scam many years ago. what you get for your 200 bucks is a set of alabama plates, registered to that car, in your name, and a copy of the alabama dmv code stating any car older than 10 years old(or was it twenty?) does not require a title. then when you take that all to your dmv they look at you and say so what? every state is different, some hard, some easy. thank goodness its easy here in minnesota. good luck, dont let em beat ya


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 08:52 am:

I do not know how they are doing the Title thing here in Alabama. I used to be able to take a Bill of Sale to the Courthouse and get a tag for any car before 1974 with no problem. Now I have to have the car's VIN # (engine # for a T) checked by a clerk at the Courthouse. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 10:10 am:

dan, you get tags, but can you get an actual title card? when i did mine i always wondered what if i had moved here from alabama? maybe the state was just wise to the scam who knows but without an actual title i was just out 200 bucks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 11:09 am:

Clayton .. I believe Titles Unlimited did the same thing as the Alabama title thing you are talking about. But Titles Unlimited was from Georgia. I basicaly sold them my (1967 Chevy Impalla) for 300.00 on paper. They then titled it in Georgia in there companys name. They then sold it back to me for 450.00 (150.00 difference was there fee) I wrote them a check for 150.00 and then I received a Georgia title in Title Unlimited names that was signed over to me on the back side and with a bill of sale for 450.00 marked as "paid in full" The laws may have changed in Georgia is why I can not find them now. I do remember that they were in business for several years and not a fly by night company.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 11:34 am:

donnie, sorry i can not remember the name of the outfit i used, but alabama i'm sure. also, dont know about georgia, but i think many of these title companys are run out of states that do not require a title for older vehicles. new york, i believe is another, and more i'm sure. moral is just make sure you will get an actual title like donnie did, and not some useless papers and a license plate to hang on the wall like i did !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 12:01 pm:

Clayton: The way is should work is this. First, Alabama did not require Titles till 1975 ( I know, been here since 1957). If you brought a car made before 1975 that was Registered in Alabama, you would take the Alabama tags and your paper work (Bill of Sale, AL tag papers , NO TITLE) to you State DMV and they are required to honor Alabama Law and issue you a title from your state. Now, due to people trying to beat taxes and such, DMV's are looking close at all dealings. I think there a case in CA with a big name Rod builder and a title CO. in Alabama about Taxes. That was when all this stuff started changing here.


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