The big story in China is the loss of the Malaysia Air 777 that went down off the coast of Vietnam headed for Beijing
Some are saying that it is the result of terrorists because two of the passports are for people that died a few years ago.
No matter the cause I feel sorry for the families of those that were on the plane.
It is interesting to note that this is only the second crash of a 777.
The other was in San Francisco and was caused by pilot error not equipment failure
I flew thru SFO a few days after that crash and was a bit uncomfortable looking at the aircraft still on the runway as we landed and took off on the runway that was next to the crash
I dislike the hassle of luggage and body checks at the airport even though I have "trusted traveler" and have "Global Entry" status that allows me to by pass checks, but understand that they are just trying to protect me from idiots
I will be returning the the US on a United 777 on Wed and hope they are not over reacting again!
I landed in Shanghi about 3 hours ago and the " security " that has been heightened after the train station killings now this actuall make you feel safe and appreciate what has been done since 9/11 in the USA to make traveling safer.
Only my opinion but I fly a lot and I'll take the security hassles anytime as a trade off for being safe
John are you staying in Shanghai?
I have to be in Hangzhou at 5 PM Monday for 4 days and decided to just punch out the w/e in Wuhan doing nothing.
I could have headed over to Shanghai on Friday! Oh well, as I've said before, one of these days our paths will cross.
Geeze ---- We could have had a Model T good time in Shanghai
All that would be missing would be the put put and smell of oil and gasoline that omen from all real a Model Ts.
We could have even gotten the put put on YouTube so all we would be missing is the smell
Maybe we can figure a way to put it in a can!
Essence of Model T. There is nothing like it!
Yes I am here at the hilton downtown for a whole 24 hours. Flew in this afternoon and home tomorrow. Short version is a customer wants to give me a rather large order and asked that I come and sign the contract personally.
Here I am !
George - ya just gotta let me know when you are going to be in country or else I will have to come to NJ and make you by the beers
Damn I am at the Crown Plaza near the Waigaoquaio free trade zone aka Pilot free trade zone about 45 minutes from you. I assume that your headed to sleep after the looooooog flight
If not we could meet at the Flying Fox across from the Ramada next to the Marriott
Yes, have to do that...I'm equally guilty of not saying where I am at! I'm probably just like you Fred...when my post say I am at work...I only have here...haha! Beer? Hmmm...the folks from the Shanghai office say that I may be old, but I'm still strong! Last time it took me 18 bottles to make the last of them drop!
Now Fred, excellent idea...I should make up a replica T and drop a put-put engine in it! Or we could have fun at the 'store' if you'd ever spend time here outside Wuhan. I'm casting blocks and heads for one of the Chinese 4-banger makers...doing integral pumpkin rear axle frame single pours for Dong Feng...making ductile rod caps by what seems the millions for somebody else...doing the integral turbo intakes for the VW 2.0 simply because no one else in the world seems to be able to make them right...doing brake disc and caliper frames for Benz (and also Brembo)...and as of 2 weeks ago doing steering housings thru full machining for somebody else big on the home side of the pond. If I manage to live long enough, the people I work with might even get to the point of being able to kluge/kit-bash a car together )
Aren't customers with big checks nice and demanding? Know the feeling. One time got a call from my branch guy in Switzerland saying he expected to close a big one at dinner that day. Called back at dinner his time and said customer felt that for what he was spending, I should have showed up in person and in fact customer was willing to wait until dinner the next night for me to make my presence. I hopped on a plane not 2 hours later...had that lunch and dinner with the customer and booked the order. I rewarded myself on the way back to NYC...took the Concorde
While my w/e was a burner...I did start a list of what I'm going to do with my T's come spring break back home at Easter-time. Spent all the time getting there and then decided it was nearly the same list as last year. Promised myself 30 days of morning coffee and then frontal assault in the shop. We'll see...one phone call and as usual I'll drop everything and tear someone else's T apart for them probably.
Wuhan? I almost had to do a seminar there for Lenovo last weekend but my pass port was tied up because I needed to update my visa.
As it was we had to get it back without the updated visa because this emergency trip was "super important" or something like that. I got to China on Tuesday and the emergency was not real except I might have to go Shenzhen before I leave
Got to get back to the US so I can rest up for a trade show in Vegas. At the end of the March. Life is hard !
You need a second passport. When I started travelling to China frequently I applied for a second one. It took a month or so but it allows me to have one passport at the Chinese consulate or wherever and still be able to travel with the second one.
I would not read too much into the news that two people are travelling on stolen passports between two dictatorships. My first guess when I hear Malaysian Airlines is incompetence, either pilot or maintenance or fueling crew. If you travel on Malaysian, be sure your insurance is paid up.
Look into what the company was working on. A swallowable microprocessor. Hmmmmmmm. Strange indeed.
Every time I hear about a crash such as this, I wonder about the people I know that fly a lot (after thoughts for the families involved).
Personally, I have only flown major commercial about a dozen times in my life. Not enough for me to get used to the hassles of flying and security. I think I will try to stay away from it most of the rest of my life. (I do want to consider a "bucket list" to an Australian rally or London to Brighten).
I am pleased to see the two of you handling it well!
Drive (uh, fly?) carefully, and enjoy, W2
I personally do 80,000 + airlines a year and live about 20 minutes from New York City. Everyday on my way home I see the freedom tower, and think about that day in 2001.
I have also flown the same Malaysia to Beijing route and others in Southeast Asia, you just take what comes and it's like a different gear of patience. Like driving a "T" you just have to pace yourself. You get no where fast.
You meet awesome people from all over the world, make fast friends with whomever is sitting next to you anywhere your at, and especially in china, you may be the first non-Chinese person young children have ever seen in their life. A smile and wave goes a long way.
Off to sell .....
I flew 130,000 last year, 140,000 the year before, and 120,00 the year before that. I am approaching 1,000,000 miles on United and that does not count AA, Delta, etc.
Once in awhile I will think about what would happen if the plane had a problem over the North Pole but figure that there is little I could do about it. I also think about how amazingly safe it is to travel when I see all the big planes waiting to leave Chicago or Kennedy or Shanghai or Hong Kong, etc. Sometimes I think that the airways must be worse than Boston traffic during rush hour then realize that the pilots have to get a license before they can drive. so it has to be safer
On the other hand I am at peace with my faith and am not afraid of what will happen to me when I die.
My real concern is my family and how they would feel
Its amazing when you bring up the large Asian hubs, a commuter plane from Beijing to Shanghi is a 777 or 747, and they load it in 20 mins flat, and takes off on time.
I have thoughts about it happening to me and your right, it's my family thats of concern.
One perk of all the travel on united... Boarding " group 1"
Safe travels !
Well these airplanes are getting so big and carry so many people if they crash even near a big city,it is a overwhelming mess for emergency personal and hospitals to manage.
I hope they stop with the 777 and quit trying to haul half a city on 1 plane.
Trouble over the north pole? better be ready to be frozen with them big elephant looking furry creatures.
Yes boarding with Group 1 has advantages such as not having to be concerned about overhead luggage space.
Another perk is the upgrades - I get complimentary first class upgrades on 95% of my domestic flights and 6 "system wide" upgrades to business class per year on overseas flights.
If I don't get the upgrade on the overseas flight they usually put a block the seat next to me in economy plus so I have a bit of extra elbow room.
Mack - Yes the flight to Shanghai from Newark goes directly north, from Chicago it goes across the northern part of Alaska, and the San Francisco flight goes along the Aleutian Islands to Tokyo before looping south around N Korea. The other flights usually go thru Russia and stay north of N Korea until they get near Beijing before turning South
When you think hard about the details that have been released to date ( ie very little to none ) two things come to mind , one- a terrorist act - lets say a bomb of some kind exploded on a plane of that size - would leave millions of small fragments scattered on the surface - pretty easily to see from the air and surface level, to date nothing but two small oil slicks ( presumably jet fuel )samples will either confirm or reject this, the inner door skin has now been rejected as not authentic.
QUESTION - can a 777 location beacon / radar ID location marker be switched off from outside of the cockpit, ie the services room way down under the cockpit ???
No debris after two days, no details, this all sounds very strange indeed.
oil slick - not jet fuel - ship oil- still no debris, no bodies - nothing
Seems to me the terrorist spent alot of time finding the weakest link in air travel and took advantage of it.
The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. The people who use it want maximum publicity, as in crashing a plane into a city or blowing up a major building. This case seems more like a non-terrorist sudden failure of some kind. So far there's no way to know which kind of catastrophe it is.
Scary thought, David. A stowaway in the E/E bay with a little training could create all kinds of havoc. The imagination runs wild.
Starting to sound like a sci-fi movie.....
They claim they can find a stolen new $30,000 car in 30 minutes. School buses now have cameras. How is it in 2014 we cannot find a 300 million dollar airplane. Why is it the owner would not put a camera in the cockpit which continuously feeding data back to headquarters.
Steve, please look at what it would take to equip every airliner to transmit data worldwide. Satellite comm cost is not trivial. Disappearances like this one are almost unprecedented.
I am returning to the US tomorrow. (Wed)
Tonight I will go to a store and try to find some garlic to put in a bag around my neck for the flight
You never know - maybe a vampire made the plane disappear
I might even get a bit more elbow room if my neighbor doesn't smell bad already
Too bad that 777 wasn't equipped with one of these:
Airlines don't have unlimited budgets, unlike the USAF. Airlines have to make a profit. Cost to equip an airliner would easily exceed $100K - more like $200K. Annual maintenance would be costly, too, as well as accidental deployments.
There are something like 1300 777 flying, with only one gone missing: 1300 x $200K = $260 Million.
There will be a solution when the decreasing cost of electronics makes it pay.
Agree with Steve. It's kind of quiet for terrorist activity. Unless they James Bonded the plane to some location. Seems impossible but right now there's more lost at sea than a plane full of passengers.
Sad event regardless of the cause.Aint there about 200 people on it?
$260 million for the cameras.?
239 passengers families will receive 1 million dollars each.
Gents, I am proud to say that I worked the 777 program as a Quality Assurance Avionics inspector and QA Manager since 1994 until my retirement in 2010. It saddens me to know that an airplane that my hands touched has disappeared from the face of the earth along with all those souls aboard. My heart goes out to all those families stricken with the grief of not knowing what happened or the thoughts of not seeing their loved ones again.
We as employees took great pride in the 777 from the very beginning. The work culture was a lot different(and better) at the Boeing Company for that aircraft under the terrific leadership of Alan Mullaly now the CEO at Ford. The reliability and flyability of a 777 are becoming legendary. From my perspective I hope that the plane can be found so that some of this mystery can be solved. At this point every opinion is just that.
To answer David Dare's question there is nothing down in the E-E bay below the main floor that can "turn off" a locator beacon, but to Ralph's point there is a lot of "black boxes" down there that can cause a lot of problems if pulled out. Communications, flight controls, navigation are just some of the electronic boxes. But, to get to that lower area from the cabin takes a carpet, or vinyl flooring removal and then an access door removal. That kind of disruption cannot happen without flight attendant/crew knowledge since the access is at Door 1 just behind the flight deck and adjacent to the 1st class galley.
Mark Strange the DFDR or Digital Flight Data Recorder on 777's is similar to the DFIRS and has it's own locator beacon on it, but the 777's also have an ELT or Electronic Locator Transmitter if the the airlines opt for it in the aircraft. The DFDR and the ELT and not located together and not located in the lower E-E bay. Escape slides can float and if deployed they are equipped with a locator beacons when activated. The use of all the above are dependent on an action taken by someone on the aircraft, and a debris field to look for the parts. So far there were no MayDay's to alert the ground, and no debris field to start looking. If the aircraft went straight into the ocean, then it was done with a completely disabled flight crew that could not communicate their distress to folks on the ground. Mack if the cabin was full it would have about 270-300 souls on a 777-200 depending on seating configurations.
Some of the more recent higher dollar 777's builds do come with cabin camera viewing for the flight crew to view and know what is going on behind their access door, but Malaysia Airlines did not opt for that capability. W
Wayne, thanks for your post. I worked at Boeing in St. Louis on the F/A-18 program for several years. The feature about the DFIRS I was trying to highlight was that it automatically detaches from the airplane and activates its beacon if the pilot ejects or it senses an impact, and then floats to the surface if the airplane went down in water.
I just read a news clip that the passengers cell phones still ring when dialed up. I think that is strange as if the phone was underwater it would not be on and the caller would get a not avaliable message?
There was mention of a cloaking device and a black hole to.So the Daily.mail.uk may not be the best source. :>)
Wayne, My daughter works for the largest machine shop in Oregon. They make many parts for Boeing and you should be proud. Every part made is checked and marked as to who made it and when. Boeing sends someone to the shop checking credentials and quality of the machinists. Daughter said he is very sharp.
Very strange. All these "you can't turn them off" black box locating devices and none of them worked. Have you seen the latest speculation? They may have flown 350 miles west after dropping off the screens?
The "ring" that you hear in the phone when you're calling someone is not the sound of their phone actually ringing. It's a tone that the phone company sends to you while you wait for an answer.
Search area now widened and 10 chinesse satelites in use, a possible site of interest has been located.
see below for some disturbing insights from Mal Air.
Tuesday, March 11, 11:30 PM MYT +0800 Malaysia Airlines MH370 Flight Incident - 13th Media Statement
Malaysia Airlines has become aware of the allegations being made against First Officer, Fariq Ab Hamid which we take very seriously. We are shocked by these allegations.
We have not been able to confirm the validity of the pictures and videos of the alleged incident. As you are aware, we are in the midst of a crisis, and we do not want our attention to be diverted.
We also urge the media and general public to respect the privacy of the families of our colleagues and passengers. It has been a difficult time for them.
The welfare of both the crew and passenger’s families remain our focus. At the same time, the security and safety of our passengers is of the utmost importance to us.
Were they possibly hauling nasty batteries in the cargo hold? A UPS 747 caught fire and crashed near Dubai a couple of years ago, hauling nasty batteries that shorted and caught fire.
Yesterday I was amazed that they included the area that is now in question as part of the search but it was low priority. It is interesting to note that the US was - is looking there.
Given the politics and stubbornness of the people in this part of the world it would not surprise me if the US told them that the flight path changed and the plane went down in that area but they decided to ignore it because it was not their information I have seen it over and over again. They get something in their head and will not let go. In fact they can become very belligerent. When you finally get them turned in the right direction they will never admit that they held the original position On the other hand Europeans and N Americans usually admit their mistake or misunderstanding - laugh about it and go forward
Half the passengers on planes these days are streaming netflix through the planes wifi. Almost 100% of passengers are carrying phones and cameras. My pickup has a camera on the end gate.
Steve is dead right.
I have been saying for years there is no excuse for not streaming live camera feeds and data to the tower on every flight.
Again...likely dozens of full length movies streaming on every flight as it is. Temp data storage is not an issue nor is technology.
There is great resistance to this and it isn't money.
...continued...one smart phone streaming a FaceTime camera in the back of the plane to the tower would answer a lot of questions here. $350
How many towers are there in the Pacific Ocean?
Satellite. Just got back from Maui. Island surrounded by the Pacific Ocean.
Perfect satellite transmission and reception to the mainland.
Netflix...no extra charge.
Flight tracking can be that hard. I am sitting in the Shanghai airport waiting for a plane to arrive so I can get in it and go to Newark They say it is running about 90 minutes late. I can go to flight view and see where it is. I also get updates about the status from united every 15 - 20 minutes
ain't technology great?
Transponders give most of that info Fred. Without transponders, tracking is limited.
Isn't most radar coverage "line of sight" ? - much like cell phone coverage....waves go in straight line, don't bend with earth's curvature.
However, it's been rumored over the years that the U.S. Military does indeed have the ability to "see" over the horizon, and in fact can "see" everything over the Atlantic. I have no verification of that - one of those rumors that persist...
Find a trustworthy news source like www.Bloomberg.com and read the articles linked to MH370. You will get a better idea of the state of the art and practice in the airline world.
Satcom works as long as the plane and its antennas are line of sight and locked onto a geostationary or LEO satellite. That's not so easy if the plane goes into a spiral dive. If a system doesn't work in all circumstances, it is far less valuable, and probably not worth incorporating.
Hi all, in Australia tonight a major TV network ran a one hour special on what happened to it and I have never heard so much BS in my life, I was waiting for them to tell me that Captain Kirk and Scotty had beamed it up. We have a bomb in the cargo, a fire ball over the gulf, a low flying plane at a few hundred feet off the ground heading to north Vietnam or china, the cabin pressure was wrong and they all passed out, aliens have taken it, a foreign power wanted some of the passengers and its been hijacked and the Rolls Royce engine monitors are saying the motors were still flying 4 hours after it crashed, I think I will stay with beam it up Scotty.
I am happy to report that I made it back to the states without a major incidence.
I was a bit concerned because I could not get garlic to hang around my neck for the trip and was concerned about a possible vampire attack.
The only thing that happened was I asked for a cup of coffee on the Newark - Boston leg and they had to brew it. They finally handed it to a few minutes before the seatbelt sign went on for the landing and I was stuck holding a too hot cup until we landed. I didn't drink it because it was still too hot when we finally got to the gate.
Dave - Be careful - The is a rumor that the IRS heard that that Model T owners in NH were having a T party and they are considering calling them all in for an audit.
I repeat: All this "stuff" and it can't be found. Mostly because they don't know where it went after losing radio contact. The real problem here is these aircraft & crews are expected to do 1, 2, 3. If 1, 3, 2 happens there's no way to track or explain any thing. Fly the exact course on the expected schedule or you're gone. No way to find you, no procedures or equipment to help either. Not supposed to happen so it won't. Cheaper that way too.
Aw shucks Fred,
Mentioning that Gov't Agency on this friendly site...not nice. ....glad you're back, just the same !!
Charlie - it will be found - just hard to find things in water (if indeed that is where it went).
Too much obfuscation in that part of the planet. Methinks there is not a whole lot of cooperation over there...everyone is "protecting" their turf.
Humans can do most anything - and can do more when there is cooperation. Seriously, not that long ago Henry put together an assembly line staffed by humans...have you seen the video on the manufacturing of the Tesla? Not that I want one, nor do I wish to go to the moon or take a trip to Mars, but someone else will one of these days.
Nothing is impossible - it may very well be that the aircraft has already been found - the finder(s) just aren't telling.
What's per perplexing is according to Rolls Royce the engines sent data back to their maintenance division for five hours after they disappeared.
I read this via the Wall Street Journal by the way.
The Malaysian airlines people say none of that happened. The question to them is, why isn't the wreckage where it should be then?
Terrible, tragic mess...
Terrible. I have to admit I am starting to think terrorist weren't involved because face it, if they were able to make a huge plane totally evaporate, they would be bragging like school kids by now.
Regardless, I think the turf guarding mentioned above is really going to hamper both helping the people and plane be found and hampering the truth ever getting out.
Ok, my thoughts on this is the plane crashed or was stolen-inside job. If crashed it will be a very long time b4 it's found.
Hi there, Jerry, according to our TV network in a poll taken in the US, 53% said they believed that Scotty had beamed the plane up and the rest agreed not to agree. I have met nut cases like that out here so they should be coming out of the wood work by now.. Terrorist kill and blow things up as thats all their brains can understand and there is no mileage to be made out of this for them.
There are planes left over from WW2 and Vietnam that came down and are just being found now so it could be any were. Ray
OK time to be serious about this--
It is tragic that 260+ lives are in question - most likely lost
It is also tragic that countries can't corporate so that the truth can't be found.
It is tragic that the news media makes mountains out of mole hills so they can increase rating.
It is tragic that the public allows the media to do things like that
I am still convinced that a vampire did a dasterdly deed and it could have been stopped if someone had bags of garlic tied around their neck.
Dave - I realize that mentioning the gov't's audit of T and T party folks is dangerous but I needed to warn you about it.
I heard that a small group of T owners are planning a tour to Nothern NH where people still believe in "Live Free Or Die" and they they intend to spend the remainder of there lives driving the back roads away from modern civilization.
Should be fun. I'm hoping to join them - if the snow ever melts around here!
Trouble is, this modern civilization is sometimes needed - growing season is short here, and well stocked grocery stores sure are nice - as are medical facilities - AND friendly folks that have T parts and T knowledge that can assist as needed. No, I don't think that I can become a hermit...
Agree with you on the tragedy of humankind.
A simple inexpensive feature would be to design the transponder so that it cannot be turned off when the wheels are up. I fly small airplanes and I can turn off the transponder if I choose. There shouldn't be an "off" switch.
The transponder OFF switch is for the benefit of air traffic control. Airliners have dual transponders for redundancy, but a single control that selects which to use. In the rare case of the control going mad with the 4 digit pilot selectable code, or other failure, ATC can instruct the pilot to turn his transponder off if it is interfering with other traffic radar returns. That is very rare, but so is hijacking.
There was one case of a transponder in a small private jet being turned off accidentally, and Brazilian ATC forgot them. The transponder is also one half the link for the Collision Avoidance system. They collided with a 737, and brought it down.
Believe me, most of the scenarios have been encountered and considered in the modern cockpit. Still, there is a lot of inertia to overcome in the industry.
The pilots' groups and the FAA were guilty of lack of imagination in the years leading up to 2001. Airliners have a checklist for every eventuality, including hijack. Hijackings of US planes had been by homesick Cubans, so the first line in the Hijack Checklist was, "Cooperate with the hijacker."
Electrical fires onboard an aircraft are very serious. Anything running off electricity should be able to be turned off if needed
Hey Mack - if they were good enough to do it in the first place, they're probably not the kind to brag.
I think it was alien abduction. Aliens enjoy trolling around in primitive technology of a B777 just like we enjoy our Ts.
Slightly related: Aljazeera America will air a program on Sunday that re-examines the bombing of PanAm 103. From the hints in the previews, Iran is to blame instead of Libya. Ch 347 on DreckTv.
Hmm, two Iranians with stolen passports...
I was listening to the old am radio I have on the work bench in the shop tonight and John Hanndy was talking about this and a caller said it is probably in Iran.Makes sense.
I coulda sworn the station id was Wphd 1220 but I cant find a Am station by that id useing google,so i will have to listen again 1 night and write it down again.
It's as if somebody aboard wanted the plane to disappear forever. He might have succeeded.
I remember my flight from Amsterdam to Mumbai a week after 911. When I looked at the countries I would be flying over I started to shake. I've dealt with a few tremors since. It was weird flying in and out of Cam Rahn Bay a few decades ago. But there were a lot more guys in fatigues and rifles at Mumbai. What I didn't know at the time was that the plane was going to fly around any hostile air space and there were jets within spitting distance of us throughout the flight. Then came the milk run from Mumbai to Coimbatore. There's nothing quite like sharing a seat with an old Indian man with a basket full of laying hens and a goat.
If you wanted the world to know that you had taken/stolen/hijacked a passenger airliner of significance, my guess is that you would fly it somewhere preplanned ( within the fuel range ), have a multitude of cameras ready and crash the plane where it could be videoed and sent to every news network in the world ... just to say we did it and you are next - to date - there is still nothing.... strange very very strange.
Can you imagine how the families feel?
With all the rumors their is still a small hope that their loved ones are still alive.
If the plane did land safely somewhere, were the passengers executed or are they OK?
Hearing that the plane flew for 4 hours after it made the turn makes it possible that the passengers went thru 4 hour of panic before it crashed.
This has to be tearing people apart!
I don't know how I would handle it if it were my loved ones
There are fresh clues this morning. Satcom ping at 8:11 am puts the plane on a narrow arc, either into the southern Indian Ocean, or over China toward Kazakhstan.
They now say it had fuel for 7 hours beyond the last known point. That seems like a lot of extra fuel for a five hour flight. Did the Capt. order extra fuel beyond the need, or were they tankering to save fuel cost?
This mornings one report lists that the pilot had a flight simulator in his home, now if true that is really an eye opener.
CNN is covering it extensively this morning. Coincidentally, their Richard Quest rode in a cockpit with the copilot not long ago, and they have footage of that.
6.5 hrs extra flight time after the transponder turned of, now even the media believes that it was stolen/hijacked by the pilot and co pilot, it may very well be still intact somewhere.
Malaysia is now asking for any country with a spy satellite to offer assistance in locating it..
Is it crashed or is it hidden ???
Are not all passenger planes ( large ) fitted with satellite phones ????
If it flew for maybe 6 hrs. after contact was lost what was controlling all the passengers with there Cell phones, Lap tops and other electronic gadgets. Seams strange that not a pep has been heard.
It either crashed into the ocean and disappeared, crashed into the jungle, or it landed someplace. If it did land someplace, the plane was placed in a hangar and is being packed with explosives and radioactive material in order to make a dirty bomb. It will then fly out again and fly nap to the earth to avoid radar, and slam into its intended target. If this is the case, the passengers may have all been killed unfortunately. I find it suspicious that Diego Garcia did not pick up the jet, since it was within reach, maybe that was the target?
By the way, there are 634 runways capable of landing the jet in that area, check out the map on the link. Plus, there are unknown number of leftover runways from WW11 in that area too.
Well,again,I aint the fizzest cold drink in the fridge but this aint a Cessna we are talking about.This thing is huge.
If this thing is refueled and loaded with bombs,it could very well wipe out a small country.
I know several folks here know about airplanes. It is such that ALL electronic devices are controlable by the pilot? As in NO remotely located computers or transmitters? Looks like the knowledge of that 1 simple fact would make most any plane a target.
We cant turn off the box in the modern cars that records speed of impact and seatbelt use after a wreck.So why would a airplane be different?
from a cargo of lithium batteries?
A fire on board would not have allowed the aircraft to fly five more hours
I agree with Ed. Whatever group now has that plane, essentially has a long range bomber. I'm afraid we'll see this plane again, and it won't be pretty.
If the pilots dropped the cabin pressure, the passengers wouldn't make a peep, ever.
That plane has been hijacked. Passengers were probably asphyxiated. (No fighting, no cell phone calls, everyone in their seat so they could not change the flight moment on the plane. That plane is in a hanger someplace being repainted as another airliner. Load it with some sort of a nuclear device and fly it into an airport near a huge city... one like Tampa with a Air base that is large and you will have something that made 9/11 look like child's play.
My God I hope NOT! Yeah... but I think we had better find that plane and pretty damned quick!!! Add everything up that we know... it is the only thing that fits!
Sorry to but in fellas.
FIRE, as I wrote above, is the reason for having ability to switch off every system in an airliner.
Hijack conspiracy is too far fetched. You can buy an old 747 Cargo plane for a few $Million and fly it anywhere - legally. It will hold more than a 777, and has greater range. Why hijack a 777?
Copilot had too little time on the 777 to attempt taking over. That leaves the Capt. If it was suicide, maybe he wanted it to disappear, which means the Indian Ocean.
Latest news seems to be that the Captain is suspect. I guess we'll find out eventually.
Apparently the Israelis don't think that its so far fetched….
OT - - Just watched the Aljazeera investigation on the bombing of PanAm 103 over Lockerbie in Dec. 1988. Among their interviews was Robert Baer, CIA, Ret., who is still mad about how the US distorted the facts.
PanAm103 was direct revenge for the USS Vincennes shooting down Iran Air 603 six months earlier, with nearly the same 290 pax. Iran hired a Palestinian group to do it. The CIA had all the goods on them, but Pres. Bush preferred to blame a single Libyan, as Libya was a small country with a hated leader, so the FBI took over the prosecution.
Bush wasn't the first rogue President we've had. LBJ declared there was an attack on a US Navy ship in the Gulf on Tonkin in 1964, before it became clear that there was no attack. You know what followed. "A little war will be good for the economy."
LBJ stopped US fighters from defending the USS Liberty spy ship as it was being attacked by Israeli forces during their 1967 war. One of the survivors is in our Old Bold Pilots group.
If an automobile manufacturers diagnostic engine analyser in DETROIT can reprogram an engines chip in AUSTRALIA [which it does] --I'm sure a sophisticated unit could reprogram an aircraft anywhere in the world.
If this be the case all it had to do was turn of the planes oxygen to all and take over the controls and fly it to any of over 300+ airfields in the planes fuel range.
There maybe systems that even disguise it from radar & satellite detection ?.
Amelia Earhart has been missing how long? But that was a tiny plane with very little technology on it.
I have actually wondered if the thing is in orbit but as someone told me the jets need oxygen so it could go high enough to kill the passengers but not high enough to escape the earth.
This should be a good lesson to the industry that even though they have all this tech, they are no better off than 100 years ago.
Ricks I understand fire hazard but no auto sos or anything when power is cut? Wow,vulnerable.
I wonder if a pilot could actually asphyxiate the passengers by raising cabin altitude to hypoxic conditions. I think the masks that drop from the ceiling are automatic. At least I would hope so.
Is it coincidence that this plane disappears around the same time a particular building is being finished in New York City?
Automatic, yes...BUT ...many new generation airplanes have "oxygen generators" which, by chemical reaction generate oxygen for a certain period of time - I've read 12 minutes - enough time for the pilots to bring the aircraft down from a high altitude to 10,000 feet or so, at which point supplemental oxygen would not normally be needed. Pilot's supply is longer - for other reasons - possibly several hours, depending upon usage (100% oxygen, or some lesser concentration).
Will, your short answer is YES. It's a shame, really....don't know the answer to the disappearance, and I'd rather not say anything more 'till the facts are known. ...speculation does not help - in this or any other instance, really.
Michael, the unfortunate fact is that although we humans can do wonderful, marvelous, awesome things, the same intellect allows use to violate laws of Our Creator, decency and respect for life and do some terrible, horrific deeds.
Then again, there are those humans who would sacrifice themselves to save another - soldiers in combat, etc.
Enough from me....live as though you meet your maker tonight, and all will be well with the world.
Yes, the masks drop at a set altitude: 14,500, IIRC. They have only about a half hour endurance, however, and are not portable.
Even Airbus engineers, who believe pilots are idiots, would never enable remote control of an airliner. Guess I need what you guys are smoking...
This loss is unprecedented in modern times.
If that plane has been taken, and I'm leaning that way myself, you'd better be damn sure that there's future plans for it's re-appearance and the less insane people of the planet better be prepared to find it when it does. This whole story is getting very much darker than a simple crash.
That is indeed a very scary thought, rebadge a 777 and use it as a dirty bomb.... would you not also have to change the transponder or would flying it cloaked somewhat not alert the authorities ???? putting the passengers to sleep by starving them of oxygen certainly ticks all the boxes in so far as cooperation is concerned.. hmmmm terrorist activity at its worse, keeping all of the families of the folk on board staved of knowledge and ...... yuck l don't like that idea at all.
The pilot had a simulator at his house...Who was he training? The two guys with the stolen pass ports?
As a retired senior pilot yes, David, you can "label" a 777 or any other aircraft to be whatever you say it is, file an ICIAO flight plan , get clearance, and a valid transponder code. As LONG as you fly the flight profile (speed) of your fake aircraft no one should be the wiser. Example, buy a used 737 cheap , get it registered, then fly the much larger 777 full of a high grade explosive as the 737. Israel has already considered this. Unfortunately, It could launch from a desert strip 1,000 miles from a target, fly below radar and you would simply not see it on radar as most enemies know where the radar "holes" are.
We're probably going to see this thing reappear when it detonates a High Altitude EMP bomb and takes down a large section of the US grid.... or (scenario #2) the European missile defense shield which would give Putin free run without US intervention. No matter how much we sit here and speculate, I am afraid we are in the opening days of a terror hit that will dwarf 9/11.
What would stop the bad guys from buying an old 747 and doing the same thing? There are lots of them for sale. It would be a lot easier than this fantasy.
I'm open to logical possibilities, including space shrapnel knocking out some of the electronics and causing decompression, leaving a ghost ship flying until it runs out of fuel. A similar event happened to a 737 near Italy several years ago.
I understand that the bad guys could just buy an old 747 and accomplish the same thing, bomb wise. However, hijacking a loaded passenger jet that the whole world cannot find accomplishes much more. It sets multiple world governments into a frizzy and causes fear and concern to many. I believe this type of action is worth as much to them as the actual bombing.
Rick... I WANT to be wrong!!!!!
But there are just too many pieces of this puzzle fitting the way I do NOT want them to fit. I know this sounds ill logical but I have this strange thought come to me the other night while asleep. I would like the debris falling from space logic too!!! But cell phones still ringing, oil slick put down RIGHT where we went to look (surely by a boat). None of the passengers made any frantic calls because (they were gassed). How? You tell me! But it is a REAL possibility with the way everything has been going on in the world lately.
P.S. I don't smoke or drink alcohol. ( maybe I should start).
Rick, Hang in there ol friend were are still prayin hard for you.
The Malays have made such a mess of this search, it's FUBAR. They released the data on the final hour's Satcom ping, but not prior hours', from which you could construct more of a flight path.
Now the NYT is saying the left turn was programmed into the autoflight system while the plane was enroute. . How could they know that?
CNN is running this story full time, on scraps of evidence. Some of their experts should go back to chasing ambulances, for all they know about airplanes, especially Mary Schiavo. At least they're mostly discounting a Muslim hijacking and landing somewhere.
Dave Dufault answered the oxygen question.
The benefit of taking a fully loaded passenger plane is obvious. Once loaded with a bomb, it simply has to fly low enough to evade radar, or even fly below another similar passenger plane, becoming a ghost or hiding in another inbound passenger planes radar signature. Once inside a countries airspace, they could start broadcasting video of the screaming passengers, heck, let them make phone calls to loved ones, and force the target country to shoot down the jetliner, vaporizing all those people, while on live broadcast. A public relations nightmare for the target country, whether or not they hit their target.
Ed has hit the nail on the head.
That is 1 of 2 reasons why the bad guys wouldnt go buy a old 747 and use it.The other is money and paper trail to follow by investigators.
It is logical for a pilot to have a flight simulator at home to hone his skills if he feels he needs practice.
The whole idea is Terror.By whatever means necessary.
I'm not sure I can agree with you guys. I don't have the aviation technical knowledge that some of you have, but it seems to me that if a terrorist attack, as you suggest, is what's behind this wouldn't it have happened by now? It's been 11 days. I would think that at this point time would be the terrorists enemy. The longer they wait the better the chance they'll be found and their plan be foiled.
Of course the possibility exists that you're right, too.
It's really hard to fly an airplane when the sky is falling.
For what is worth I just came across this:
If it was known that those planes that hit the Towers or the Pentagon were going to do what they did they'd have been taken down. I don't care who was on them.
Air Force jets were enroute to shoot down the plane that went down in Pa.. Not saying I agree with that kind of tactic killing all those civilians but the outcome for them would had been the same.
The USN has a new $33 Billion !! 737 sub hunter on the search now, out of Perth.
A 737 couldn't even carry $33 Billion in gold. In fact that's 1,500,000 pounds of gold.
Oops. Should have verified CNN numbers. $33 Billion is total program cost. Unit cost projected is $275 Million, about the retail for a 777.
Real price for an airliner is about half of retail, maybe less for large leasing companies. Real price for a govt project is always higher than advertised - usually much higher.
A billion here - A billion there!
What's a couple hundred Billion amongst friends?
As Tip O'Neal said some years ago, "A few billion here, a few billion there, before you know it you're talking about some real money". or words to that effect.
Actually, that quote is originally attributed to Everett Dirksen:
Well what do you know. I always liked that quote, too bad I've been wrong about the source!
Maybe it wasn't even Dirksen..?
"Update, May 25, 2004. A gentleman who called The Center with a reference question relayed that he sat by Dirksen on a flight once and asked him about the famous quote. Dirksen replied, "Oh, I never said that. A newspaper fella misquoted me once, and I thought it sounded so go that I never bothered to deny it."
Interesting, thanks Roger! At least the senator knew a good quote when he heard it, even if he never said it.
Back to the top. Fred, this is the 3rd 777 hull loss.
The type's first hull-loss occurred on January 17, 2008, when British Airways Flight 38, a 777-200ER with Rolls-Royce Trent 895 engines flying from Beijing to London, crash-landed approximately 1,000 feet (300 m) short of Heathrow Airport's runway 27L and slid onto the runway's threshold. There were 47 injuries and no fatalities. The impact damaged the landing gear, wing roots and engines. The aircraft was written off. Upon investigation, the accident was blamed on ice crystals from the fuel system clogging the fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE). In 2009, air accident investigators called for a redesign of this component on the Trent 800 series engine. Redesigned fuel oil heat exchangers were installed in British Airways' 777s by October 2009.
The second was EgyptAir cockpit fire at the gate.
Asiana was first fatal.
Umm, this is 4th.
This is perhaps the nicest, most plausible, possible, speculative scenario I've read about MH370. OK, I may be proved wrong (heaven knows, I've been wrong in the past) - giving credit where it is due - by and large the pilot population of today is highly trained, dedicated, and extremely professional - think "Miracle on the Hudson".
Sully did not have the benefit of unlimited time to think about what to do, nor the altitude in which to do much of anything - other than a perfect water landing.
So, take RD's possible event - fire- incapacitating fire. Bad things have happened with a burning plane -again - RD's example - see:
A few years ago, there was a Swissair incident off the coast of Maine...before that, there was a cargo flight enroute to Europe and a fire broke out - the crew reversed course over the Atlantic, unfortunately bypassed a couple suitable airports and tried to make it back to Logan - but did not succeed...
fire is bad....maybe the Malaysian plane had a tire problem as one Goodfellow described.
It wasn't that long ago that passenger carrying planes did not have fire suppression equipment in the cargo holds because the theory was that those areas were unpressurized, and therefore had insufficient oxygen to support a fire. I do remember being taught that if indeed there was a fire in an inaccessible area, the solution was to done the oxygen masks, and run the cabin altitude up (Don't panic - no passengers on these flights) to a point that would hopefully extinguish the fire - this was when we flew freighters!
Again, by no means do I have an answer - I'd just like to throw out the possibility that the cockpit crew had the right intentions, but could not overcome the problem.
(Yes, there are exceptions to everything - I do remember very well 9/11).
It's been said that the modern "glass cockpits" are not unlike an arcade game....plus the inclusion of so many electronic controls. What if there was a fire - and an electrical one at that...think what stray electrons do to your home computer or laptop or "smartphone". Imagine what challenges the cockpit drew may have faced in a smoky cockpit, at night?
Bad news, terror, disaster, racy off color stories, murder, suicides, inappropriate actions by politicians, make headlines and sell newspapers....maybe, just maybe, the crew of MH370 tried to save their passengers & survive.
Dave. Swissair 111 crashed a short distance off Peggy's Cove Nova Scotia. An electrical fire brought it down in very short order. Went from smoke in the cockpit, to flames, to crashing in the Atlantic at full speed. Horrific. But it left a debris field that was absolutely unmistakable. And unfortunately unforgettable
Ah--how soon the memory goes.
Peggy's Cove - fairly close to civilization...and witnesses who called for help, didn't they?
Yeah, it is fairly close. It took us quite some time to actually narrow down a crash site, and that was with witnesses who heard, but didn't see the crash and radar tracking. I had the unfortunate luck to be a paramedic on duty that night. Longest night of my 17 year career.
I saw a small plane crash in a field just North of Minneapolis one morning on my way home from work. To actually say I saw it isn't really a good description. It went straight in nose first. I saw the dust cloud and the resulting fire. Apparently he was off the end of an airstrip because there was a rescue crew there immediately. I remember going home and to bed to sleep in preparation for that nights shift and I started shaking and couldn't sleep. I didn't know the people in the plane and it was a long way off the highway I was on but somehow it triggered something I couldn't shake. Years later I saw the debris field from a plane that crashed at the end of the runway in Detroit. As I recall the plane hit what appeared to be a berm on the end of the runway and there was garbage strewn all over the ground. I had heard about the crash a few days before and there had been no survivors. That one triggered some old familiar nightmares. My prayers are for the families that lost loved ones in the 777 ordeal.
I remember Everett Dirkson on the Red Skelton show. It was extraordinary. I think he recited "The Night Before Christmas". A great man. We need people like him in our government now. Unfortunately we don't have anyone like that.
The disappearance of the Malaysian 777 is a mystery that may never be solved. Any speculation as to where it is or why is likely completely in error. Don't believe anything you hear.
After a brief search I found this:
Australian PM reports finding debris based on satellite imagery. A plane is enroute to verify.
Dave wrote "It wasn't that long ago that passenger carrying planes did not have fire suppression equipment in the cargo holds because the theory was that those areas were unpressurized . . ." I have no idea when fire suppression may have been added to cargo holds, but the holds are - and always have been - pressurized. The entire fuselage is the pressure vessel. That's why it's (nearly) round. It would be nearly impossible to build a flat floor that could support pressurization on one side only that was also light enough to fly. If the cabin was at 8000 ft and the hold was at 35,000 ft, there's a difference of 7 pounds per square inch. The floor in even the smallest 737 would have to support nearly a million pounds just from the pressurization difference.
If cargo burns in a cargo plane, the procedure is to depressurize to 25,000 feet, which deprives the fire of oxygen. However, the Li batteries carry their own oxygen...
Yes, the Malays admit now that MH370 was carrying Li batteries, and those things can short internally, resulting in a chain reaction.
Unless they find the FDR and CVR, the Malay govt will probably find reason to blame the captain, who can't defend himself. That's probably their cheapest way out.
Sorry, memory lapse - should have used the words "...oxygen deprivation" rather than unpressurized.
Schematic of a cargo hold inside a fuselage, and the FAA reasoning behind what was done - "in the day" here:
I do not know what "modern" planes have down there-
Lithium Ion batteries are not installed on the 777 so that's just a totally ridiculous comment.
Anything anyone is saying is pure conjecture. Don't believe a word of it. When - if - they ever find the aircraft it may or may not be possible to figure out what happened.
Who made that ridiculous comment, Royce?
.."MH370 was carrying Li batteries..."
Does "carrying" mean "installed on" in Texas?
They were cargo.
Look up UPS Flight 6, Sep 6, 2010: the 747-400 was the first fatal crash of UPS Airlines.
"On September 24, 2013, the GCAA released its comprehensive, 322-page report on the crash, which found “with reasonable certainty” that the fire which caused the crash originated in a cargo container which held thousands of lithium batteries. The report made more than thirty recommendations for safety improvements, including improvements to systems that warn pilots of cargo hold fires, and use of additional systems to improve pilot visibility during aircraft fire scenarios."
"In October 2010, the FAA issued a Safety Alert for Operators highlighting the fact that the cargo on board Flight 6 contained a large quantity of lithium-ion batteries and that Halon 1301 was inefficient in fighting fires involving them. The FAA issued a restriction on the carrying of lithium batteries in bulk on passenger flights."
That last sentence is chilling. The Malays said it was totally safe, however.
More bits and pieces, still no plane !!!
Saw on CNN last night that MH370 was carrying 200Kg (440 lb) of Li batteries. That's carrying, as in cargo, Royce.
Why was Malaysia Arlines doing that, in spite of the FAA restriction issued in 2010? . The US CONgress overruled the FAA in 2013. . . Thanks, RepubliCONS!
No, it's not been found yet that the Li batteries had anything to do with the crash, but it's a risk that should not be there. Any one battery can short internally, its heat causing the others to burn, too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the FAA has zero authority over flights that do not pass through US airspace.
My thought exactly, Rob. In fact, we here in the USA are merely observers in this whole thing. It's frustrating and I think we're being fed a load, but at the end of the day it's beyond our control.
ROW, Rest Of World follows FAA and Euro regulations, called JAR, Joint Airworthiness Regulations. US carriers are subject to FAA Part 121. Foreign carriers flying US aircraft are subject to FAA Part 129. Therefore, the Malaysian 777 is subject to US FAA regulations.
It depends on the class of battery and packaging as to whether or not they were legal to carry down below. You don't have enough information to make an accurate assessment of any wrong doing by the airline.
Please cite how any FAR was overruled / overturned by congress. Nice of you to jump in however with the usual political rantings at the most unfortunate of circumstances.
It was probably in the annual FAA Reauthorization Bill, Gary, where all the stuff gets hidden.
I didn't say the airline broke any rule. I say a safety rule shouldn't have been retracted by politicians.
Regardless, there were 200 Kg of Li batteries on a pax flight; an unnecessary risk. I guess it's ok to carry them on cargo planes, where there's only a couple of pilots at risk.
FAR Part 129 applies to US Registered aircraft being operated by foreign air carriers.
FAR Part 129 is completely irrelevant to the Malaysia Boeing 777, which is not US registered.
Again, there was no safety rule retracted by congress and your constant politicizing of everything is tiresome. You have been in the aviation business long enough to know that amendments to the FAR's are not part of the funding authorization.
I stated earlier that you don't have the facts concerning the power rating of the batteries, the packaging, or anything else yet you came to the conclusion that 1.) it was the batteries. 2.) the airline was somehow responsible. 3.) it was Bush's fault (ok, so you didn't implicate GW this time).
Please, let the chips fall where they may. One day it will be figured out as to what happened. In the meantime, stop making this one of your political rants.
I'm in Asia again and this morning I met a German guy at breakfast and he suggested that it was mistakenly shot down, or shot down on purpose for whatever reason. The gov't is covering up for whatever reason. Different slant on it.
Sounds like TW800, John. That's a whole 'nuther story. Just ask anybody from TWA, or people involved in the investigation.
Found this, Gary: http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/2013highlights.pdf
Full-Scale Aircraft Fire Tests with Bulk Shipments of Lithium Metal Batteries
A series of fire tests were conducted in the FAA Boeing 727 freighter test article to ascertain the hazards presented by bulk shipments of lithium metal batteries. These tests represent a culmination of research conducted by the FAA to characterize the flammability hazard associated with the use, handling, storage and shipment of lithium metal batteries. Previous small-scale tests have documented the fire hazards of lithium metal cells experiencing thermal runaway, including case temperature, auto ignition temperature, flammable electrolyte ignition sprayed molten lithium and explosive pressure. Also, in a typical bulk shipment cardboard box, it was determined that a single cell in thermal runaway produces enough heat to cause other nearby cells to also go into thermal runaway. This process propagates through all the cells within the box as well as to adjacent boxes, until all cells in the shipment have been consumed. Halon 1301, the fire suppressant used in all passenger aircraft cargo compartments, is ineffective in stopping the propagation of thermal runaway, though it does suppress the ignition of released electrolyte and prevent fire spread to other combustibles.
This research has been the basis for action taken by the Department of Transportation that banned the bulk shipment of lithium metal batteries on passenger aircraft, as well as an FAA Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO): 10017: Risks in Transporting Lithium Batteries in Cargo Aircraft.
The bulk shipment of lithium metal cells is only permitted onboard cargo aircraft. The involvement of lithium batteries is suspected in recent accidents resulting in the loss of two Boeing 747 cargo aircraft...
You guys selling your smarts to the ChiComs would do well to fly only US flag carriers.
Maybe - maybe not....time will tell...
Amazing what can be done when countries cooperate...the resources deployed to "find the needle in the haystack" is awesome.
I can't help but think what a great planet this would be if ALL humans worked together - instead of so many fighting each other. Improvements in all technology, not only the T, but everything we see or feel or hear or smell (or dream about) is awesome indeed! (What's a more stupendous word than awesome?)
And the thing is Dave, all humans are built with that ability,but dont,cant or wont use it.