Removing rear end

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Removing rear end
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 07:55 pm:

Hi Guys..

This is a follow up to the newbie trouble pulling hill thread

I'm still trying to sort out why there is so much drag on my 16 touring. I've decided to take down the rear end and see if there is something binding in it.

Turning the wheel with the car jacked up is much harder than it should be. I've disconnected brakes ( both RM and hand ) and I do have the car in neutral. I'm pretty sure something is binding.

Than said, I'd like some tips on removing the rear end. I don't have a chain fall, but do have jack stands and a good floor jack. Anyone have pics to share?

I did a search and saw Steve's pics, but that was from a while ago. I was wondering if anyone has further thoughts or ideas.

Thanks!

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Just a quick question related to the binding I have been referring to...

When I look at figure 331 in the service manual, I see that the lower joint housing pug is missing. Was/is this plug supposed to prevent any lubricant from running out, that may now be causing the binding?

Thanks in advance,

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Have you loosened the brake band in the transmission?
Is this a new problem on the hills?
It's not likely your rear axle is causing the drag you feel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 08:30 pm:

Hi Ted,

no, I have not touched the brake band at all. I will say, though, that it already seems loose to me - as far as I understand things (again, I'm a newbie). The reason I say that is because I need to push the brake pedal down pretty far to get braking action.

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 08:49 pm:

I prefer to be able to pick up the rear of the body and frame. There were some car lifts made of flat iron that hooked over the frame rails in front of the rear cross member and then came out the back of car under cross member to the center behind spare tire. They useally had a lift ring to tie them together in the center to hook a hoist to. If you can pick it up at the rear lift the car and tires off the ground. Then put a 2X4 wooden block under each end of the rear spring on top of rear axle housing. Lower the car down and the weight of the car will spread the rear spring enough to get the shackles off. (put it back in the same way) Then leaving the tires on and resting on the ground, pick the rear of the car up with the hoist just enough to make sure the spring is clear. After unhooking all the brake rods (which probably should be done first), unbolt the front of the driveshaft from trans. Then just roll the rear axle assembly out from under car. Be carefull not to let the front of driveshaft fall to the floor. I useally put some padding on the floor just in case. Make sure everything is blocked good and is safe to get under. We are working on Model Ts and should not be in a hurry, "Be Safe" ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 08:51 pm:

I just noticed you said you do not have a hoist. You can do the same thing with jacks on each side but it is more dangerous that way. Just be carefull ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

What about using a cherry picker instead of a hoist?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 09:21 pm:

All the bands in the transmission should be loose. They should bottom out about one inch from the floorboard. If any of them are too tight it will be a drag going uphill. It could also cause the drums to overheat and crack. That is the first thing you should check. It is also possible that the band lineing could have come loose and binding between the band and the drum. The bottom plug under the universal joint should be in place, but would not cause anything to bind.

Next thing to check would be the rear brake shoes. They could be binding even with rods removed. Both wheels should turn freely when jacked up and the brake released. They will turn in opposite directions because of the differential. If they bind, the wheels should be pulled from the axle to check them.

If these checks don't disclose the reason for the binding, you can remove the entire rear axle assembly. The chassis should be jacked up and supported. Either hang the rear of the chassis from overhead or place tall jack stands under the chassis just forward of the point where the radius rods go under the chassis on each side. Remove the wheels, remove the brake rods, remove the 4 bolts which attach the universal joint housing at the rear of the transmission. Remove Ruckstell shifter and shifter rod if you have a Ruckstell. Pull the assembly out from the rear. Be careful not to place your body parts under the car. Do not bump jack stands.

I would recommend that you purchase from the club the booklet Front and rear axle or the booklet Ruckstell Axle. It is well worth the money and will take you step by step through the process of checking and repairing the axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 09:35 pm:

Hi Norman,

I do have that book. Thanks. So far, I know the following:

With the brake pads completely removed and wheel put on, I get binding.

With the axle key removed and the wheel put back on with rm brakes still on, it spins freely.

I lubricated the axle bearings well yesterday and that was no help.

I'll open the hogs head cover and check for an issue with the brake lining.

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 10:03 pm:




here's what Norm is talking about. It can slow you down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 10:05 pm:

Michael

Before I would spend any more time on the rear end, I would make sure that's where your problem lies. Rear ends seldom fail in the "bind" mode. If the thrust washers go (by far the most common cause of a rear end rebuild) the symptoms would be the opposite of binding.

How about jacking up the rear end and having someone sit in the car with the lever in neutral and the clutch pushed in - that should disconnect the entire transmission, any binding at that point would have to be from the U joint back.

As for chain falls, cherry pickers, etc - not really necessary. I pulled my rear end a few months ago with nothing more than two jack stands lifting the frame just forward of the radius rods. No problem at all - easy work. You may have to block up the jack stands as most are not tall enough. If you do this MAKE SURE YOU STANDS AND THE BLOCKS ARE STURDY!! I really don't remember having to get under the car at all, the axles can be disconnected from the springs from the sides and the driveshaft can be disconnected from the tranny from the floorboard area.

Let us know what you find!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

Steve - thanks. I'll check there next.

Bud...no, I have not had someone sit in the car with the lever in neutral and the clutch pushed in - will try that tomorrow. Thanks makes sense to try before pulling the rear end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 11:39 pm:

The brake lever should release the clutch when its pulled back if its properly adjusted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 12:59 am:

well...I took apart and adjust the handbrake per the instructions. Now only to figure out how to get that last little screw in that holds the bendix gear cover - the inside screw. After working on it for two hours...headed to bed. Good grief.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 01:11 am:

Bud....to do your test to disconnect the entire transmission, shouldn't the brake lever be all the way forward and then the clutch pedal depressed to disconnect the transmission? If the brake handle is in the neutral position (straight up), as you suggest, and one presses the clutch pedal, that is low speed gear, no? Or, did I misread your suggestion? Thanks for the help!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 07:55 am:

Michael,
re. Bendix cover screw
Are you trying to put the screw in after the cover is in place?
Notch the cover screw hole to the outside of the flange. Put screw in partially. This allows the cover to be slid under the screw head .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 08:58 am:

Regarding the bendix cover screw - if for some reason you don't want to notch the one cover hole, try sticking the screw to the end of the screwdriver using chewing gum or tape. Once the screw is started, you should be able to easily pull the gum or tape off and finish tightening the screw.

The bendix cover on my car must be an aftermarket replacement, because all four holes are notched.

cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 10:39 am:

With the clutch pedal partially depressed you should be in neutral regardless of where the brake lever is. When you pull the brake lever back from the full forward position the clutch pedal should move forward slightly if the linkage is correctly adjusted. Holding the pedal at that position and then releasing the brake lever will keep you in neutral. Again, this assumes the linkage is correctly set.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 11:53 am:

Michael,
From what you have described, I I think you can rule out the brake shoes as the cause of the binding. If you have both ends if the axle on stands and the keys in place can you turn one wheel freely while the other turns the opposite direction? If it binds, try removing one wheel at a time. If one wheel binds but the other doesn't the trouble is in the wheel which binds, Try a tapered shim between the axle and the hub. If that solves the problem, use the shim. Usually when Rocky Mountain brakes are installed a shim will be necessary, because the small drum is pushed closer to the backing plate.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 05:46 pm:

A screwdriver with one those little spring clip thingies that grips the head of the screw works good too. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 06:36 pm:

Michael, in your second post you talked about one of the plugs in the u joint housing is missing. That's one of the access holes for riveting the U-joint pin. I don't think any significant amounts if grease was lost there, but you may fill the cups and screw them down several times to be sure the U-joint and the front driveshaft bushing are properly greased. Until you find a correct plug, you can use any screw with the same thread - just fill it up with washers so no more thread goes into the housing than with the proper plug screw.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 06:37 pm:

David
Where can you get that type of screw driver with the clips you mentioned? I have only seen one in an orthopedic surgeon tool kit in the operating room.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:05 am:

Two different types - here's one:

http://www.amazon.com/Eazypower-82783-Phillips-Screwholder-Screwdriver/dp/B002ZG7QQ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395201635&sr=8-1&keywords=screw-holding+screwdriver


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 12:24 am:

I was able to get that screw back on in about 5 mins this afternoon. Shows what a good night's sleep does!

Dan Hatch is coming by in a couple weeks to drop off my next project, so he will be able to help trouble shoot this issue. It may just be that the car is 'tight' from being so 'new'.

I did change spark plugs today as I found the old ones to be coated with carbon - there certainly seemed to be more power and the car was much better on the hills.

Also, I determined I don't have the 3;1 gear ratio - which is good.

Thanks again for all the help!

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 01:23 am:

Tim, I think one of the newer ones was made by Channel Lock, not sure. The one I have, I found in an antique store several years ago. (I go to antique stores a lot) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 08:37 am:

That's a neat accessory, but since when did Model T's (and Model A's for that matter) have any phillips screws to need one? I'll get a set for the rest of my stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 - 08:38 am:

OK, dummy me...I looked again and see they also have a slotted one too...figured they would


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