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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Newbie to this forum
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 01:54 am:

I am about to take the plunge into the brave new world of the model t. I have always been a fan but never thought of owning one until i came across this 22. Let me know what you think i should look for while inspecting this 92 yr old restored beauty. thanks.PICS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 03:08 am:

It seems you are so excited you can't sleep. That is a nice looking T. You will really enjoy the T hobby if you get one bought. That 22 doesn't seem to need a diaper placed underneath it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 03:28 am:

Thanks Michael,...i appreciate the advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 03:55 am:

It looks like a heap of fun to me from a long way away!!! '22 is a good year, electric starter, generator, demountable rims and electric lights!!! I hope you join the ranks of being a model 'T' owner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 06:48 am:

It looks nice in a picture, but close personal inspection is a must. Mostly the outward appearance matches the inside but there are many exceptions - sometimes museum vehicles are only given a good looking outside without proper mechanical repairs.
Has it been toured with regularly?

I would have tried to look at the condition of the wood in the body as much as possible - that and the sheet metal condition would be the hardest to fix in my opinion. Look at the wood rails under the body, are they in good condition? A magnet shows if the nice paint is backed by steel or bondo.

Contact the closest Model T club and ask, maybe someone living close to you can go with you and have a look at it.
http://www.mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm#ma

Even when there are some mechanical problems with a car you buy after some use, it will only cost some work and some money, parts are always possible to find :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 06:57 am:

John,

Welcome !

That is a beauty to be sure ... :-)

As mentioned above - contact a neighbor in your local MTFCA Chapter.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 07:02 am:

And about prices, there are still some truth in this post by David Grant in 2003. Prices may be higher than his estimations on very early brass cars, but black T's stays at low prices.

"Cars and original depot hacks and pie wagons 1917-27:
Parts car only, not restorable: <$1000
Not complete, restorable with a lot of work, engine may or may not run: $1,000
Mostly complete, correct, disassembled, restorable: $2,000.
Mostly complete, correct, recently assembled, restorable: $2,500.
Complete, correct, never disassembled, restorable: $3,500.
Runs, drives, correct, needs total restoration $4,500
Runs and drives, mostly correct, looks like a 10 year old used car: $6,000.
Everything works, not correct (wrong year engine, etc.), looks decent: $6,000.
Everything works, almost all correct, looks decent: $7,500.
Show room condition, correct, needs nothing functionally or cosmetically: $10,000.
Completely "restored" but with incorrect "upgrades" such as pre-1919 starter, incorrect accessories, etc.: $10,000 but buyers will be a different group than previous item.
Rip van Wrinkle: Car stored inside since new, less than 1000 miles: $20,000.
Complete factory type restoration, every nut and bolt reconditioned, completely correct: Ought to be worth $20,000, but the market will not pay much more than $12,000.
Trucks other than original pie wagons: Deduct 50%
Depot hacks, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%
Speedsters, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%
Town cars with original bodies: Add 100%
Pre-1917: Add $1000 for each year down to 1909.
Body only: 60% of the value of the car. Chassis only: 40% of the value of the car.

Generally, cars needing total restoration are overpriced because they are a liability, not an asset, and the cost of restoring them far exceeds their finished value. This is unfair, but true. Generally, cars restored with thousands of hours of expert work are under-priced, but no one will pay their true value. Again, its unfair, but true. If you want to make money restoring cars, the best way to do it is to buy a car that is complete, original, and basically sound, but does not run. Spend 50 hours and $500 on it fixing only what is broken and give it a nice paint job so that when you're done it runs, everything works, and it looks decent, and advertise it for twice what you paid for it. If you want to do it right (partial translation: take everything completely apart), forget about making money. Subsidize it with your regular job. Buy a good working car to enjoy until you get this one done. It will take longer than you thought. It will cost more than you thought. It is impossible to restore any part without complete dismantling. You never know what you have until you take it apart. Caution: For any car that has been "restored" request a photographic record of each stage, and information on the experience, background, and motivation of the restorer. The word means ten different things to ten different people."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 07:24 am:

Looking again at the photo, the leaning windshield and the turtle deck looks more like 1923-25 style. The 1923 body with leaning windshield came in november 1922 on the runabout. Then the shape of the cowl looks like a high radiator car, but I may be wrong there - it's hard to see. If it has a high radiator it's a '24 or '25 body, they came in the summer of 1923. Mabe it is a '23 made in the last months of '22 and titled as a '22, Maybe the engine was swapped sometime to a 1922, maybe the car was pieced together, maybe the only title the restorer could find was for a '22 - doesn't matter much for the value if everything fits and works. Please post some more photos from various angles and under the hood and check if there are any numbers on the car that matches the title, if not, the car can be a can of worms..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 09:04 am:

Looks like a high hood to me (23-25). Welcome aboard John. Check the motor number on the driver's side above the water inlet and look in the encyclopedia section of this site to determine when it was made. Compare that number to the number on the title. If there's a match register it "as is" whether it says 1922, or 1912, or whatever. Don't try to change things as you transfer, it will just make you grow old fast! As for price--go into the deal knowing it's an expense for your enjoyment--it's not an investment for your future. If you and the seller are both satisfied, then that's what it's worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:04 am:

Welcome to the club! There is no better place to find info on the Model T Ford than right here on the MTFCA Forum!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:23 am:

Nice car! It does like a 23-25 era T Roadster to me as some of the others have said.
It could very well be a 22 that was registered in early 23.
Don't worry about it. Dating Model T's is not an exact science. If a Model T is 90-95% correct its probably as close as you can get.
Even a fully documented Model T that has never been altered in any way can have minor year differences. Ford would use parts that were generally used for one year into the next year to use them up. He wouldn't waste anything.
And remember Model T's weren't all black either! That's another story!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 11:12 am:

John - take a close look at the door hinge - if both hinge pieces protrude form the body the same distance it would be a 1925 body along with the all steel (as opposed to wood) vertical uprights on the interior next to the firewall and a two rivet data plate (as opposed to a four rivet) also riveted on the passenger side inside firewall. If the lower hinge piece protrudes farther than the top one, it would be a '23 - '24 style body. Could have had an engine swap in the past to be titled as a '22.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 12:28 pm:

Thanks for all the great comments and info,its greatly appreciated. Will try to post some new pics asap to figure out if this truly is a 22.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 05:23 pm:

John,

I didn't see it mentioned so far, but some other things to consider might be:

1. Dont purchase a Model T as a financial investment but as an investment in fun and meeting folks with similar interest. While old cars in general tend to hold there value and go up -- you don't want to be disappointed if they do not. The 1970s muscle cars were appreciating a lot more the last time I checked the old car market. The Model Ts appreciate some but I anticipate more and more of them will be coming up on the market as the "Greatest Generation" passes away. I know my Dad's cars would have been sold if I had not wanted them. I'm sort of emotionally attached to them -- most of the ones I have are NOT a great financial investment -- but they do have a lot of great memories.

2. I would recommend you not rush into purchasing a Model T or Model TT truck before you have had a chance to look at several that are for sale and had a chance to ride in and drive a few. A short ride in a few vehicles will give you a lot better feel for how they perform. The words slow (T) and slower (TT) come to mind. How you plan to use the vehicle should have a big impact on what type of vehicle you want.

3 The Model T is considered a hard riding antique compared to modern cars. We had a club member that loved his 1912 touring but as he grew older and his arthritis got worse, he stopped enjoying riding in his T because it physically was uncomfortable.

4. If you are single and dont want to take but one other person for a ride at a time then the roadster is a great choice. If you have 4 grand kids or kids, and you want to take all of them at one time then a touring, depot hack, or sedan (they had different versions), etc. car would be a better choice. You used to be able to pile them all in the back of the truck bed (I was there as a kid) but depending on the current laws in your state, how well the kids will sit still, and how high the sides are it is often nicer to have a seat with a door helping to keep them all in. You could replace the turtle deck on the runabout (also called roadster) with a wooden pickup bed lots of folks did that back in the day.

5. An enclosed car is nice if the weather is bad but do you plan to drive your T when the weather is bad? If not then that probably isnt as high a priority as if you were going to drive it in the sleet and snow.

6. Do you want something that will keep up with modern traffic or at least get out of the way of modern traffic? If so a modified engine and better brakes with a light chassis (speedster or roadster) would be something to consider.

7. Will the car fit in your garage? The roadster should as you can put the top down if you need to do so. Caution more than one top has be hit by a garage door when someone forgot to put the top down and they new then needed to do so. A depot hack or sedan may or may not depending on the height of the car and the opening of the garage door.

8. I would recommend joining the local T club so you could see what the different cars and trucks are like. Let them know what you are looking for. Dont get in a hurry, they made 15,000,000 plus Ts and they come up for sale often. If you have the choice between a newer model that drives nice and an older model that needs lots of work I would suggest the newer one that drives nice. The roadster in your photos looks nice but having someone help you check it out to make sure how road worthy it is would be a good idea.

9. If you are married purchasing a T that your wife likes is a big bonus for your future happiness.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 06:53 pm:

John -- I agree with the others that it's a high-hood car, probably a '24-5. A picture of the front of the car would show us whether it has some other '24-'25 features, notably the fenders and splash apron. And as Steve T. said, the door hinges will tell whether it's a '25 if they haven't been changed or it's a put-together car.

Regardless of the actual year, it looks like a nice car in the picture. My advice would be to find a Model T'er in your area to take a test drive with you. Does it have lots of pep? Does it over heat? Does the front end wobble? The answers to all those questions are relative, as compared with other Model T's, not to a modern car. That's why an experienced Model T'er will have a better idea of its condition than someone not used to T's.

I see you're in MA, which isn't a very large state, so you're probably not too far from Lang's Old Car Parts, which is the most comprehensive Model T parts supplier anywhere. Maybe you can take the car there and have someone take a test drive to assess its condition.

If there's nothing major wrong with it, go for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 07:35 pm:

Ask the owner if the radiator has been replaced or recored.
Also ask if the wheels have new spokes and tires or good older tires or if they are new. These are the 2 items you need if you really plan to drive it. Sometimes a 'restored' car has a good paint job and a general mechanical touch up. That's not the meaning of 'restored'.

Ask the owner a lot of questions before you decide to buy it. Ask the questions and don't feel like you have to apologize for asking them.

Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

My personal opinion as a newbie who bought my first T in June of 2013 and loves it:

If the current owner has a clear title and the car is currently registered, and you've never driven a Model T before, ask the seller to take you for a 20 mile ride in the car, that should be far enough to get the engine fully up to temperature. Make sure the car runs well on battery and magneto. Do you have a picture of the engine compartment you can post?

It's a beautiful and complete looking car, if it was me and the car ran well, I'd go for it! The folks here on the forum can help you work out any bugs with the car and answer any questions you have after it's yours.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Saitta on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

I drove my FIRST Model T for 500 miles before feeling comfortable with it. Have an experienced owner take you for your first EXTENDED spin. Be careful, however. They are like rabbits. They seem to multiply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:24 pm:

I really appreciate all the great comments and suggestions that have been provided here, you guys are great!..Here's an update to the 22? i have been wanting to buy. The gentleman who owned and had this car restored passed away a few years back and i am dealing with his wife for this possible sale. I was supposed to look at this car this week, but she is sick in bed with the flu, so the saga continues. Lots of people have commented that this looks like a 23-25 model especially with the slanted windshield, and the more i look at it the more i agree. Here's a few more pics of the car, hopefully this will help determine what this beast is, as i have yet to be able to see it in person. Again thanks for all the input.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert C.(Bob) Borden on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:25 pm:

John, Welcome to the wonderful world of Model T's.
the nearest exclusively Model T club is the Old Colony Model T Club.We meet at 7:30pm the last Wed. of each month at the 1st Congregational Church on High St. in Hanson, that's less than 1 mile out of Hanson center at the intersection of routes 14 & 58. Lots of experienced T people, all willing to help. We are active nearly every weekend April til November. You may come as my guest. Send me a PM.
Bob Borden


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:34 pm:

Thanks Bob, i might just take you up on that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:35 pm:

John -- The radiator splash apron and front fenders are '24-5 pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:42 pm:

Thanks mike, seems that the mystery continues as to why this is advertised as a 22. Hope this is not just a hodge podge of assorted years.I have another pic but am having trouble with the upload attachment thingy,I'll keep trying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 10:51 pm:

John,

It's a high hood machine, probably a '23. But...could have been a '23 Model registered in '22 and the title is then correct.

There is a lot of fun in owning a transition period car because all the self-made experts usually stay away from them but are willing to offer comment about what might be wrong.

Guess other than finding a new best friend in a local T club...start with the serial number.., located over the water inlet to the head as a stamping. Using conventional wisdom consensus and not actual fact...if the serial number is less than about 6,500,xxx then you may have to look lots deeper to see what it really is...if the serial number is about 6,500,xxx or above...it is a 23 when it comes to a Roadster. If the serial number is above about 6,500,xxx and lower than about 6,900,xxx then it is a 23 Model built in '22 :-)

There is a lot of fun in owning a model year transition car. So much fun you get a thick skin real quick about what is right and what is wrong...no sarcasm in that, fact. When someone tells you something is 'wrong' then it becomes fun to check it out. :-)

Here's a factory picture of a real '23 from Ford




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 11:04 pm:

Thanks George, you guys are a treasure trove of information! This newbies head is trying to soak it all in. Seems like i wont know what the real deal with this t is until i can see it in person and use all the advice that has been given here to make a conclusion to what i am truly looking at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 11:21 pm:

Danged, said that wrong.............

about 6,500,xxx and higher would make it a 23 model year for some but not all models.

about 6,700,xxx would make it OK to be a '23 roadster...

Below 6,900,xxx would make anything built before January of '23.

Start with the actual number and post it here. It's a fine looking machine, but if you are looking for pure then you will need some help. Clue #2 after the serial number is to look at the oil pan....3 dips or 4?

Then if you can, lots of pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 22, 2014 - 11:27 pm:

Will do George,..thanks. Still have one more pic but i cant seem to be able to upload it at the moment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 12:01 am:

Last pic i have. Does this help the mystery of my fabled 22? All the pics i have are out of the binder he kept of the restoration process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 12:24 am:

I agree with Bill don't expect to feel comfortable driving a T for some time -they are very different to modern cars. I sold my first one 3 months after I brought it as I felt so " out of control " driving it- I only realised how much fun it was to drive as I drove the new owner on his test drive! Thankfully I now have another which I don't think I will ever sell -Karl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 12:25 am:

It's very common for a Model T to be registered with the wrong year. One reason is that people confuse calendar year with model year. Traditionally the model year begins in the fall. So the new car you buy next October will be a 2015 car, not a 2014. That tradition goes back over a hundred years. Ford's practice, most of the time, was to begin the model year in August. So a T made in the fall of 1922 is a 1923 Model T. One made in August of 1923 is a 1924. But two other things add to the confusion or uncertainty. One is Ford's thrifty practice of using up old parts before using new ones. This sometimes led to a part from last year's model appearing on the the first cars of this year's model. That's further complicated by the various assembly plants using up their old parts at different times. And a final common source of confusion is changes brought by the passage of time. Over the past eighty or more years, many of these cars have been altered in some way for many different reasons and sometimes for no apparent reason at all.

So to determine the model year of a T (as much as it's possible to do so) you have to go by the serial number and the details of various tell-tale features. As you've seen, some of these guys have a good grasp of what belongs to a particular year, so posting the number and a lot of pictures showing the details here will usually pin down the model year as well as it can be done.

That said, I have my doubts about whether anybody can really spot the one-inch difference between a low radiator and a high radiator just by looking at a picture, especially from an angle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 12:49 am:

Thanks Karl and Steve, this insight and information is great! Am chomping at the bit to finally see this t in person and make a decision on whether to purchase it. Hopefully it all checks out,but i am determined to buy a nice one even if this deal falls through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 09:21 am:

It's a beautiful car, I sure hope you get it. Please keep us posted! :-)


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