OT - I found a 1907 Packard parts list at Chickasha. Part comparisons with Ford "K"

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - I found a 1907 Packard parts list at Chickasha. Part comparisons with Ford "K"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 01:04 am:

I found a 1907 Packard price list at Chickasha. I thought there were some interesting comparisons between the Packard "30" and Ford "K". Unfortunately, some parts or components aren't similar enough to compare and some parts were not listed (for example, the Packard book didn't list a frame, while the Ford book does). I also have no idea how the two companies approached markup on parts.

Packard reported making 1129 cars, all Model 30 for 1907 while Ford produced 457 Model K along with several thousand Models N and R and a few hundred Model S (Ford fiscal year):


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 01:12 am:

I should have added, I believe the Packard engine was "cast in pairs." That's why only "2" is placed in the Cyl/Piston/Ring column for Packard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 06:15 am:

I thought the model 30 was a four cylinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 07:38 am:

Rob,
That's what I was referring to in the post directly above. They are four cylinder, cast in pairs. The price is given per pair of cylinders (since you must buy the cast pair to replace a bad cylinder), so I multiplied by two (instead of four). A little confusing, but the total shows what two "cast in pair", or four cylinders total with pistons and rings cost.

I'll post a specification comparison between cars in a bit.....
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 08:16 am:

Gotcha. Thats what I get for posting before my morning coffee


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 08:27 am:

I wasn't very clear. Should have just posted the per cylinder price of both.

I did find in 1908 Tariff Hearings where Packard testified that the chassis minus tires cost $2300 to produce (before any overhead).

Ford financial records show the model K costing $1600 to build before other overhead (complete with body and tires). I'm not sure how those numbers reflect on the comparison, but maybe someone with a better business sense will draw a correlation (or not).




1907 factory drawings of each car:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 09:40 am:

Comparing a Packard 30 to a Model K Ford is sort of like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Dodge Challenger.

The parts prices don't reflect cost - they are retail prices. Likewise the sales price of a Packard 30 being 30% higher than a Model K Ford doesn't have any relationship to the cost of the car. The Packard sold for more money because it was a more prestigious car. Packard averaged over a thousand of them sold for five model years. Meanwhile the Model K Ford averaged 300 a year over three model years, with sales so low in 1908 that the Model K was discontinued unceremoniously.

The import tariff discussion is a bit of muddled trivia Rob. The panic of 1907 (actually begun in 1906) caused all sorts of problems for the United States and its trading partners across the globe. Reading what our politicians say here in the USA doesn't necessarily mean what we are reading is true or even relevant. Sometimes they wander off in their discussions just to create doubt or speculation based on facts that are irrelevant to their case but interesting enough to impress the uninformed. Politicians and lawyers only say what they think will help their case. This is unlike what a historian would say. A historian would present all the facts and not try to draw only the conclusion he favored before researching the issue.

Packard and Ford are not being sold to the same customer in 1907. The Packard customer is willing to pay a significant premium just for the name on the car. Ask the man who owns one!



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 10:44 am:

Actually, the Packard "30" was 150% more than the Ford "K" (1.4 X $2800 = $4200), not 130%.

Ford had an aggressive rivalry with Maxwell for the small runabout market. Ford challenged Maxwell to a series of contests to determine which car (Model N or Maxwell two cylinder) car was best. Both companies bantered about in newspapers however I don't believe a FMC Maxwell sponsored contest ever occurred.

In the same manner, Ford challenged Packard to company sponsored contests. I think Henry Ford recognized Packard was the leading maker in mid to high end cars, and took them on as a result. Many articles appeared written by both concerns challenging the other and claiming superiority.

Following are a few examples:









Like it or not, it looks to me as though the two concerns were directly competing with each other..........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 11:05 am:

You gotta admit that the Ford 6 is a better looking car than the Packard Thirty based on the drawings above. Two things that stand out are the large headlamps and the long sleek hood on the Ford. How well they looked side by side in person might be a better comparison, but if you were judging on pictures alone, Ford wins.

Does anyone bring a Packard to the New London to Brighton run in Minnesota? Maybe to the Old Car Festival?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 11:20 am:

Dave,I hope not as we might be required to wear a tie with our bibs!! Bud.PS/BS Is the Packard Trans and Clutch cost double the K?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 01:32 pm:

Dave,
I agree, the styling looks better to me. The last two years a 1909 Packard has been at New London to New Brighton for the pre tours. It's newly restored and a beautiful car. It looks more expensive, with more brass and trim work. Side by side, I thought the Model K looked larger, although the specs show the wheelbases are similar.

Bud,
Yes, the transmissions cost about the same, but the separate clutch is almost as much as the K transmission. As I said earlier, I don't know what the "markup" on parts was, so it's hard to know how close we are to "apples to apples". I'm not sure why the "Clutch Assembly" costs almost as much as the transmission?

Packard 30 trans:



It was interesting to see some items similarly priced such as the radiators, while others such as springs were quite a bit different. Engine parts seem comparable, for example the four cylinder three main crankshaft is $99, while the 6 cyl seven main crank (Ford) is $120.

Flywheels seem quite a bit different considering the similarity. The four cylinder flywheel should also be larger and heavier than the six cylinder Ford flywheel, but that doesn't seem to be reason for such a big difference.

As for the tariff article, I used that piece to show what Packard reported as their cost of production. Sometimes one has to think outside the box to find 100 plus year old data (or just make it up as you go).

Next, Magneto comparison...........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 01:44 pm:

It is irresponsible to compare the transmission prices above without comparing the cost of the braking systems and clutches. The Ford transmission includes the Model K's main braking system and clutch. Rob needs to add in the prices of the clutch and braking systems if the comparison is intended to be a valid one.
The Packard transmission also does not include the clutch or any part of the braking system.

The Ford Model K two speed transmission is cheaper than a Packard Thirty transmission because it offers fewer forward speeds and less content by weight, size, features, cost or price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 02:12 pm:

" Rob needs to add in the prices of the clutch and braking systems if the comparison is intended to be a valid one. "

Royce, the clutch system is provided. It would be helpful if you read the thread before commenting. I've spent hours and invested money gathering information I find interesting (as do others on this forum). If you feel additional research is necessary, do the work and post the results (with references).

Meanwhile, you said above "Packard and Ford are not being sold to the same customer in 1907". Following that, I provided three examples of articles where Ford and Packard are comparing their six cylinder and four cylinder cars. Do you still stand by this statement, or do you agree the two appear to be competing for the same customer?

In today's dollars, the Ford K sold for the equivalent of $72,000, the Packard for $107,000. Performance was similar at best (although I suspect the Model K is probably a faster and equally comfortable car to drive). Without a doubt the Packard is more refined with more amenities. So which is it, the high performance less expensive Ford, or the $35,000 more expensive (in today's dollars) and prestigious Packard? Obviously there were buyers for both. I would like to know how many 1906-1908 Packards survive if anyone has any idea (Packard club members)?

A comparison of some specifications:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 02:25 pm:

This 1908 Model 30 sold on an RM auction at Amelia Island in 2011 for $165,000. It's the only 1906-1908 Packard sale I've found so far:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 03:08 pm:

You need to park your K in between a Packard and a Pierce, so you can measure and compare, not to mention the great photos you will have.

p.s. Royce will be Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 03:11 pm:

If they are direct competitors you can see Packard kicked Ford's tail soundly in sales. The Packard is a much more refined car, with better trim throughout, better brakes, better transmission, and more customers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 03:46 pm:

The Packard 30 was made from 1907 - 1912, while the Ford Model K was canceled after 1908 due to poor sales.


Auction results for Packard 30 sales:

1908 Packard Model 30
Sold for $319,000 at 2008 Gooding & Company
Serial number 6186


1910 Packard Model 30
Sold for $192,500 at 2007 RM Auctions
(No serial number listed)

1912 Packard Model 30 7-Passenger Touring
Sold for $330,000 / 2009 Gooding & Company
Serial number 20150


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 03:46 pm:

Dave,
I hope to do that. I missed an opportunity to compare and photograph beside a 1907 Stevens six and the Packard at New LondonnMN in the past. At that time I didn't know much of the background of the Ford K or the other larger cars of the period. Hopefully we'll have other opportunities to tour with similar cars.

Royce,
Ford was making three and four models during the "K" period, selling thousands of cars. Packard made one model during the same period, averaging 1000 to 1500 cars a year. Who was kicking whose tail?

Packard says they will build 900 cars for 1907. Ford produced 457 Model K, 2464 Model R and 5214 Model N for 1907:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 04:09 pm:

I think something needs to be clarified. The Model K line was never cancelled due to poor sales or for any other reason in 1908. Ford contracted for 1000 cars, and that was it. Period. Case closed.

In 1908 Ford was producing Models N, R, and S. They were also gearing up and concentrating on producing the Model T. By then the Model K was history, just like the original A, etc.

Enjoy reading your research Rob. Keep it up, but spend a little time with Holly and the girls. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 05:41 pm:

Thanks Dave. A quiet (and cool) day at home this afternoon. I did start the 13 T for a little while.

I like this article from a Rockford IL dealer. Apparently he thought he could compete with Packard:




I especially like the line "Winged Palace of Power"

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Sunday, March 23, 2014 - 08:03 pm:

Rob,

Wonder if the service guarantee is still honored?
:-)

Larry


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