OT-Model A question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT-Model A question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Hycner on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 09:20 pm:

Just bought a '31 Deluxe that was well restored. When I checked it out everything was fine. Now after the first drive it is pumping oil out of the rear main area and coming out of the hole in the bell housing. It leaves a big puddle in minute. The inspection plate was almost dry. I pulled the pan and saw the drain pipe is in place and that the engine was just redone. It has a new forged crank,cam, pistons, etc....my question is how can i determine where the leak is? I did not see any gasket cement on the oil pan gasket corners or the main cap. Could it be leaking between the cap and block by the shims? Is it possible pull the cap with the bellhousing in place so I can check the bearing clearance? If it is the rear cam gasket is there a way to check this?
Lastly how do I re-install the oil pump and pan at the same time? is something supposed to hold it in place? it just fell off with the pan.
I'm used to my model T and not this newfangled modern stuff......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Schreier on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 09:52 pm:

A simple thing to check is to make sure that your oil filler pipe is not constricted or plugged up. Also make sure your oil fill cap is not seating all the way down on the filler pipe as this would seal in the crankcase pressure and force the oil out somewhere.

Another thing to check is that the oil tube on the rear main cap is not screwed in too tight. If it is screwed into the cap too far it will restrict oil flow back to the sump.

As for installing the oil pump. I put the pump shaft into the block and have someone else hold a 1/4 rod inserted into the side plug hole. Some guys will put a set screw in the side plug hole but I don't like this because that side plug hole is fine taper pipe thread, and if a bolt with the wrong thread size is used it will damage the threads and will leak oil out of that plug hole.

I recommend buying the Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook by Les Andrews. It has step by step directions with pictures for pretty much anything you'll ever need to do to your Model A. You can get it on the MAFCA website for $35. I got the idea for installing the oil pump I mentioned above from this book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 10:22 pm:

You can remove the rear main but let me tell you it is a pain in the a#$!
You can also tie the oil pump in place with a piece of thin wire wraped up around almost anything on that side of the block. When the bolts are started you can cut the wire and oil pump will stay in place. If the pan gaskets are the rubber/cork type you might think about changing them now while the pan is down. The regular cork type sold by the suppliers work the best. (my op after doing a few)
If there was too much oil put in the crankcase it will pump it out the rear.
You may not be able to check the drain tube as often they are welded into place to keep from turning.
I find there is a lot left out and some wrong information in Les's books (again my OP, I have been working on Model A's for the only for the last 3 years) but they will help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 11:10 pm:

You donít mention if the engine has recently been separated from the flywheel housing,
but it would not be the first time the gasket (that covers the rear camshaft bearing)
has been damaged or left out.

http://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_model_a/model-a-ford-flywheel-housing-gasket.h tml


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 01:00 am:

To hold the oil pump in place when you put the pan on Snyder sells an A-6621-R, or you can copy theirs with a fitting and bolt from your local hardware store. The hard part is getting the slotted plug out of the block. The plug is a 1/8 Pipe thread not a bolt thread. The slotted plug dose not hold the pump after assembly it only fills the hole.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 02:59 am:

Jim,
I've done a LOT of A engines, actually made a living at one time restoring As.
Oil pump--easiest to hold it up in place with a bolt through the plug hole. I used a threaded bolt that fit a little loosely in the hole, so as to not damage the pipe threads--I forget what size, but the threads on the bolt help hold it in against the pump so it doesn't fall down while you are putting in the pan--which is a bit difficult, as the spring on the bottom of the oil pump has to be compressed a bit to get the bolts started. The most difficult part of sealing the pan/engine is the rear part around the main bearing, the cork square piece needs to be a little long so it compresses in the corners tight.
Yes, you can drop the rear main, but, as mentioned, it's a pain to do! Think you need to, as the rear oil seal originally was a slinger that runs in a groove cast into the cap--and the upper part is an aluminum piece that fits into the block--maybe it is missing. The cap has an oil galley running from that groove to the front of the cap where a drain pipe is screwed into it, and was originally spot welded to keep it from coming loose. I usually grind the back side of the pipe's threaded area to insure that the oil has a free-flowing path. If this pipe is missing, the motor can pump oil out the back of the rear main.
Also make certain the oil return tube on the side of the block is clear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 08:34 am:

If it is rebuild with a lot of "improvements" the rebuilder May have installed a modified seal or used a crank without a oil slinger. The slingers are often removed to accommodate the modern-day seal.
Or just hang a can to catch the oil :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:58 am:

to hold the oil pump i drill a hole thru an 1/8 pipe plug and tap 1/4 threads so you can screw in the plug, then screw in a bolt thru the plug. on the rear main the shims must be right up next to the crank or they will leak


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 07:01 pm:

I have known guys to use the wrong (longer) flywheel bolts which will break the rear main part that contains the oil slinger. They screw the bolt in, find out it is too long and then find the right ones. By that time the rear main is broken.
There is a modification where you turn the oil slinger off the crankshaft and sretch a thick rubber band over the flywheel flange.
This works well if the machine shop doesn't forget to polish a part of the crank where the seal rubs that is often left as the crank was cast.
I have found it best to put it back together like it was made in the first place.
You need to take your time and use some RTV on the rear main flange and on the ends of the square gasket cork material that goes in the rear main groove.
The rear main cap is NOT a struggle to take on and off.
The oil pump and pan installation is simple enough too.
Hold the pump up with one hand and screw a bolt through the plug hole with your fingers into a hole in the oil pump.
After the pan is bolted up remove the bolt and screw the plug back in.
Seems to me that to tie up the oil pump compressing the spring would just make an easy job difficult.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Hycner on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 07:51 pm:


I took a few photos if it well help at all. Took a closer look today with a mirror in the bellhousing and the back of the cam gasket area is dry so I think that is good. The drain tube is clear, i pushed a piece of copper wire all the way through. By the look its obvious the engine is fresh and appears to be well done. the only thing I see is there was no permatex or sealer on the ends of the pan gasket or main cap gasket. My thought is the oil was coming out in the corners.It did not drip at idle only when I drove it and left a 8" round puddle when parked.
Great trick on the oil pump, I will try this when it goes back together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

Normally there will only be sealer on the corner where the rear main seal and pan gasket meet. It's a good idea to use an anaerobic sealer between the block/shims/cap area to keep oil from migrating out on the rear main. The cork gaskets both for the pan and rear main are installed dry otherwise.
Did you have the dip stick pushed all the way in? I ask that because I have seen cases where the dipstick was installed where the folded over end was riding on the outside of the block and was overfilled because of a wrong reading.
I would only fill with 3 1/2 qts of oil to start then run the engine then check and fill as needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:15 pm:

Jim, I posted to your question on the Fordbarn with how to check the rear bearing and possibly solve this problem. I would like to see some pix of the cap and bearing after it is removed. BTW, you have a stock original crank that has probably been reground at some time.


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