Newbies 22 mystery update

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Newbies 22 mystery update
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 08:21 pm:

Last week i was here and got some great advice about inspecting a t that is listed and titled as a 22. Many of you commented that it looked like a 23-25 with the slanted windshield,fenders,and splash pan. Well today i finally got to see the car in person and take some pics. Now comes another mystery as the door has the lower protruded hinge 23-24?, but the engine number when i looked it up was June/1925. My question now is why this would be titled as a 22 when the engine# states that it was made in 25? I have seen the title and it definitely matches the engine# and the car was registered. Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:26 pm:

Having problems with pics..aaargh!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:38 pm:

John,

As others have said welcome to the forum.

Lots of folks over the years swap parts around. My Great Uncles swapped their Model T bodies back in the 1930s because they each wanted the other body style but wanted to keep their own original chassis. I've swapped bodies and engines -- especially when I was much younger and on a very limited budget. I could have two cars that needed some work before they could be driven or one drivable car and one car that needed lots of work just by moving the best parts to one car.

Also if I someone had a title for a 1922 but the car wasn't drivable and they had a drivable Jun 1925 car that needed a title before they could register it for the road, they would probably use the 1922 title. They could legally put the 1925 engine in the 1922 and have the title changed to reflect that. Then they could move all the best parts to the 1922 car (body, radiator, hood, rear axle etc.). Or they could take the lazy way out that technically probably wasn't as legal and just say they changed the engine out and have the 1922 title updated with the 1925 Jun engine number and drive the 1925 without moving any parts. Most police would not be able to tell the difference between a 1922 and a 1925 T.

And there are numerous others ways it could have happened.

If you post the additional photos especially higher resolution photos it would be easier to tell if your car started life as 1925 or not. For example the hinge could have been changed out -- especially if the door and hinge got damaged -- just replace them both. Any 1915-1925 right front door will fit. And any 1915-1925 right front door or left rear door hinge will fit. But the late 1924 and the 1925s had the equal length hinges. One item to look for is how many screws are holding the door striker to the body? Iíll try to hunt up a photo of that and post it later.

Again welcome to the hobby!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:39 pm:

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a Model T would be incorrectly titled. It happens all the time. My 1924 TT project was sold to me as a 1922. A bit of study showed me that was wrong. Whether you do anything to correct it depends on your jurisdiction. Here in Kansas I have no qualms about correcting the record when I get around to it. But some states love to complicate things, and it may be better in such cases to let sleeping titles lie.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:39 pm:

Something about that pic John. I saved it and turned it around but, when I went to post it, I could see it was going to be upside down again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:42 pm:

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:50 pm:

According to the engine number, my 1923 touring / pickup conversion is really a January 1924 production car.

However, the previous owner in Illinois had it titled and registered as a 1923, so I chose to leave it that way when I registered it in Missouri rather than try to explain it to the DMV.

As one of my former bosses in the Aerospace industry used to say about meetings with the customer, "when you're explaining, you're losing".

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:51 pm:

John,

The photo of the front of the car clearly shows the 1924 Model year style front fenders with the lip / folded over front edge that matches the apron under the radiator.



Below is a photo of a typical 1924 - 25 model year front:



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (That has the 1924-1927 style fenders with the lip/folded over edge. One of several parts that were changed out over the years.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:53 pm:

Thanks Hap and Steve!..I feel better knowing that the person has the title in hand even though it doesn't reflect what year this actually is. I have some great pics from today that i downsized to fit, but keep coming out sideways and upside down, really aggravating,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:04 pm:

Mark, i totally agree!..I think as long as i have the title, and all the numbers match it will just be our little secret between me and the always competent RMV.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:13 pm:

Dave, i did the same thing with the same results, very weird! Still trying though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:14 pm:

Here's another clue to the year. Up through 1923 you have a low radiator. Measure it like this.


The low radiator will be just under 17". A high radiator (1924 or later) will be a little over 18".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:17 pm:

John,

As others have said...happens all the time and in some States, you can't fix it!

My son has a '24 Coupe according to his numbers matching title.

Guess he can call it a prototype as it has a one piece windshield that tilts out at the bottom...a real drivers door...nickel radiator shell and a hood that is bigger...along with the mono-trunk :-):-):-)

His grandfather bought it close to 50 years ago...bought it specifically because it was titled as a '24 (the year of his birth) and it took several years but he was disappointed when he found it was really a '26. We all said, that's OK, you can say the car is titled the year of your birth...and its' a nice looking 26, eh?' :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:23 pm:

Thanks Steve, I'll be sure to do that, thanks for the tip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:25 pm:

John,

If you take a look at the door latch striker the 1925 would have had one held on with two screws while the earlier 1916 to 1924ish would have had four screws. Photo below by Larry Smith, from "The Vintage Ford" and copied from Bruce McCalley's "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia" available from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853



There are several other items that would help you confirm if it was a Jun 1925 car or not. For example Steve Jelf previously posted this photo of a mid 1925 to 1927 emergency brake quadrant. Note it is only held on with two rivets.



The earlier emergency brake quadrants were located in the same area -- but were held on with 4 rivets and were a slightly different shape. Either can be used -- the holes just need to be in the frame in the correct spot. But from the factory -- I believe a Jun 1925 would have the two rivet.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:28 pm:

George, i was a little freaked out in the beginning being that this was my first t purchase, but you and several others here have eased my mind over this numbers issue. I really appreciate it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:29 pm:

Note Ford did not switch all of the branches to using the new parts on the same day. They used up the old parts. For example see the posting:

Approximately When did Ford introduce the equal length door hinges that are commonly found on the 1925 touring and roadsters?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/114100.html

Note a Jun 1925 would have come from the factory with the equal length hinges -- but during mid to late 1924 -- it appears it was mixed during the change over.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:43 pm:

Thanks Hap, i have some great pics from today which might unravel this mystery if i can only get them to work. I can say this with certainty..It has a door with bigger hinges on the bottom, although in the book i have of the restoration it says the door was missing when it came in, and was replaced. The engine# is 1198xxxx. The oil pan does have 4 bumps, somebody here said that was relevant to figure out its age.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Murray - Anacortes, WA on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:43 pm:

John, I have a 1927 serial number on the block, but the car was titled as a 1926. Even the collector plate indicates '26. Like Steve, I let the sleeping title lie !!

TT


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:49 pm:

Thanks Wayne, that's exactly what intend to do. Love that color by the way!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:07 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:35 pm:

John, your partial serial number indicates Wednesday, June 17, Thursday, June 18, or Friday, June 19, 1925. That's about six weeks before the end of the 1925 model year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:44 pm:

Steve, So its definitely a 25 motor, now all we have to figure out is if my body is a 24 or 25?..thank you! this is fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:47 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:52 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:56 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:06 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:19 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:21 am:

The pics seem to be working..have a few more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:32 am:

I'm sticking with my original hunch...

This is a strong '25...and as Steve points out, the serial number still allows it to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:42 am:

You think so George? Do any of the pics i took today help with the analysis?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:48 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:51 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 01:42 am:

I want to thank everyone here that made a newbie feel right at home, and for some very insightful information. I have always been a car guy, but delving into years of the twenties has until now, been above my pay-grade. I found the car that is for me, or it found me. This t is absolutely beautiful and when i saw it today i knew i had to have it right or wrong. Life is too short, so here we go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 02:05 am:

John,
A true '25 body will have no wood forming the cowl area, and the door check strap is held to the body with a metal "clamp" screwed to the metal body framing with an oval head machine screw. These details are probably not changed on your car, even if the door hinges & door were. Also, MAYBE look at the door latch hook on the body, if it's two screws holding it on, it's a '25 body!
I should know other things to look for, but I haven't looked at Barney closely recently (although I have pushed her in & out of the garage a lot lately to get the tractor out!).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 02:23 am:

Thanks Dave, it seems i might have bought that proverbial red headed step child!..I am confident that i made the right decision, this car is amazing. Its an earlier restoration that was garaged after the owner died and not on the road since 06.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 07:41 am:

Nice car John! Black era Runabouts are my favourite. Looks like a 1925 to me and a darn fine one too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 07:41 am:

It looks like a great little car and you're going to have a bunch of fun with it :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:17 pm:

If the lower door hinge protrudes farther out than the top AND if there are wood uprights next to the inside firewall AND considering the engine number - it appears to be a late 1924 Runabout - nice looking one at that !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 01:04 pm:

John, from your underside photo it looks like you have cotter pins on the wishbone ball socket nuts. Please remove the cotter pins, make sure that the studs are fully screwed down into their holes, then replace the springs and nuts and safety wire the studs and nuts together. If you leave the cotter pins in, there is a chance that the studs could back out of their holes.

Here's an illustration from the service manual, the area of interest is circled:


wishbone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 10:16 pm:

Thanks Mark, i will be sure to check that out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 12:17 am:






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 11:55 am:

The photo Hap posted of the brake quadrant is interesting in that it indicates an early '25 when they were using up the earlier style frames. Note, the two inner holes for the old style quadrant are still there. This is probably a '25 manufactured in '24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 11:52 pm:

John,
Yes, it does look like you have a really nice car there.
Sometime look over the body cowl construction to see if it's all metal above the wood sills. A metal floor riser is one clue, also the kick panels are held in with metal edges on a '25 body.
Of course, the door check strap clamp would tell you a lot too.
Let us know what you find!
Meantime, here's some pics of Barney to help you out, I hope.

25 driver cowl
Door & firewall area

hinge detail
Hinge area

latch detail
latch area

firewall area
Firewall & cowl area

Cowl detail
Check strap screw receptacle and metal retaining strip for kick panel


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