Rear End Evaluation and Rebuild

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Rear End Evaluation and Rebuild
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 08:25 pm:

I decided after the front axle rebuild, that it might be time to check the rear axle and drive line. The Front was so worn out that one can only conclude that the rear was in the same shape. I purchased a rear wheel puller and decided to get started.

First, there was no need for the puller because the rear wheels were both loose already (The first sign of trouble). Both Emergency breaks were full of grease and looked to be original 1 piece designs that had maybe broken into a two piece design.

Brakes 1

Brakes 2

I grabbed the axle shaft and moved it in and out and measured about 3/16 inch of play (In and Out) on the axle. (The second sign of trouble)

I dropped the drive shaft and rear axle. I split the differential cases and found that everything was original. But there were No babbit thrust washers, just two steal washers on each side.

No Babbit

They were both gone and not much derbies present, except for some random pieces in the teeth here and there.

Here are some pictures after everything was cleaned up and measured. I don't have a rear axle book yet so I don't know any of the true numbers or specs I need to be looking for. I got a few of them from the MTFCA video series though. I added my measurements to the pictures.

Left Axle

Right Axle

I will have to look at the key way to see if its loose or not but depending on the conciseness here I might need a new axle?

The Gear teeth looked good to me.

Left Axle Gear Teeth

The Key way might need to be looked at on this left side.

Left Key Way

What does everyone think about the Spider Gear case and the rough spots found there and on the Axle gear surface?


Right Axle Bearing Surface

Spider Housing Cover


As I cut the safety wire to the Ring Gear and started taking out the bolts. They were all loose. I took each one out by hand. One of them was broken in half. Here is my ring gear. It does not look good nor does the Pinion Gear. I was able to take the Pinion nut off with my hand as well. It was just held on by the cotter pin.

Ring Gear 3

+++ jpeg +++ 434200 +++ Ring Gear 2

In this picture you can see some rough areas and a chip near the thrust washer pin. The pin is loose and I can almost take it out with my fingers.

Ring Gear Housing

+++Pinion

My spider gear teeth looked good. My only concern was a rough area on one of the three pins and the inside bearing surface of one of the gears. See pictures below.

Spider Gear Pin

Spider Gear


My questions:

Given the measurements and pictures. What can I save and what has to go? The Hyatt inner bearings measured about .4975 on the left inner and .4984 on the right side inner. I think the outer bearings are done.

Let me know if anyone needs any other information or measurements. I will post my Drive Line Findings in a separate Thread for Drive Lines.

Thanks for looking

Adam Corts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:15 pm:

I love the welded up pinion gear!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 09:30 pm:

Looks like you and Stan are in the same neighborhood. You might get in touch.
I posted Hyatt's in classified better then yours and have at least one matched ring and pinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:00 pm:

Adam, I'll be in town all next week, give me a call if you want to come over and dig through my gears and center carriers. I've got a big pile of stuff, as you know. I'd just replace they carrier. A new ring and pinion is a good investment but if your budget is a little short for one I have stacks of used ring gears and boxes of pinions to go through and find something that will work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 10:03 pm:

Your thrust washer were probably still there. Occasionally you find them like this.



More often they look like this.



But many times they look like this.


Thoroughly ground up and mixed with the oil.

There seems to be a slight variation among axle housings, so Hyatt bearings with .003 to .005 wear may be OK to use if you put them in with new sleeves and find no play. When you have the axle book, Glen will give you all the numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:29 pm:

Les: The Pinion Gear was not welded but one tooth was broken and another tooth was chipped, the chip just had not fallen out yet.

Steve: The Thrust washers must have been all ground up and possibly the rear end oil was changed out. I really didn't find much in there. Just thick oil. I did find small chunks between gear teeth here and there.

Stan: Thanks for the offer. I will try to compile a list of parts I need besides the usual rebuild items. What did you think of some of the parts. What should I look at replacing.

What did you guys think about the axle shafts? Should I replace them? I will probably be looking for a new carrier too. What about that Axle Bearing surface picture (The portion of the axle gear that rides against the Carrier Housing).

What are peoples thoughts on that spider gear and pin. Do they look ok to run with those pits in the bearing surfaces?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 11:55 pm:

Adam
Sorry, it looked like one I encountered that had been welded up, which then proceeded to break out again and do nasty things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:02 am:

For now I'll leave it to others to comment on your parts, but I will show what the outside of the carrier, where the thrust plates and washers ride, should look like...




...and what it shouldn't look like. This is what can happen when that pin wears out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 09:43 am:

Adam, I don't know your financial options, that can dictate a lot (trust me I make choices based on what I can do versus what I want to do all the time). However, the rear end is one of the places where I pulled out all of the stops. I would get a new carrier, new ring and pinion, new axles, new brakes, new bearings. And in case no one else has mentioned it - you really have to rebuild the driveshaft assembly the same time you rebuild the rear end because they are so dependent on one another. Fun Projects pinion bearing kit is the way to go!! Anyway, I would highly recommend you save your money up and get of that stuff new, you won't have to rebuild it again for decades.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 11:05 am:

I agree with Seth on all but the bearings, unless he misspoke and means good used or NOS bearings. I've been told by one experienced T guy whose opinions I respect that the new ones aren't as bad as their reputation, but I'll stick with the old ones as long as it's still possible to find them in usable condition.

Here are new and old bearings side by side. Note that the new ones have only seven rollers.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 11:20 am:

By the way, nobody has mentioned countermeasures to oil all over your brakes. I'm installing three of the old style felt washers on each side. Some people find them difficult to install, but I'm told they really do help. Just in case any oil gets past those, I'm also using the new neoprene inner seals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 12:47 pm:

Thanks for the input everyone. It's looking like I need almost everything for this Rear End. I am about to post the Thread for the Drive Shaft and it is in about the same condition.

My concerns: What are the new Ring and Pinion sets like? Have all the kinks been worked out of them? I have read a few things about bolt holes in the wrong spots (Holes near the valleys and not the apex of the ring tooth) causing pinion teeth to hit the bolts, also Gears being to brittle and hard. I think I also read where a key way might be in the wrong area, I guess for the pinion gear. What are peoples thoughts on these? Is it better to go with good used ones?

If I get new axles why will stock dimension parts not fit. Are the axles ground larger in diameter? Where can you find original length axles (I see some are 1/16 longer than original)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 01:36 pm:

Adam- The new USA ring and pinion sets are great. Used are okay too but when you mix and match gears they tend to get loud.
The new axles are fine. There are some made where the key slot for the hub is cut too far inboard, stay away from those. Ford-N-More in Spokane typically stocks the correctly made axles, unless we've had a run on them. Texas T parts make the 1/16" longer axles to help people who have worn hubs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 01:55 pm:

Used parts vary a lot. Just about every Ruckstell I've rebuilt has had a new ring and pinion set installed. I've thrown away probably 50 sets that were better than what a lot of people are running because to build up a Ruckstell to sell I have to tear down at least one and maybe three or four rear ends to get axle gears, carriers, etc. I went through the housings a couple years ago and hauled any late housing that had wear, broken backing plates or other damage and still have 30 or so setting in a line on a board at the ranch. I hauled in several hundred pounds of rusty carriers, bad axles, driveshafts and tubes because I can't use anything less than the best I have for axle rebuilds and nobody wants the stuff. I probably have 15 or 20 sets of ring and pinion better than what some people would run and don't have much if any use for them. Part of the reason I'm not doing Ruckstells anymore is because my supply of rear ends to tear down is about dried up. They used to be all over, now I can't find a decent one anywhere. Not many auctions here anymore and scrap prices are cleaning up the old farms more than anything has in years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 01:56 pm:

Thanks for the info Mike. So the 1/16 longer axle is to allow the hub to push up further into the taper allowing a snug fit on worn hubs. Is that right?

What is a good way to tell if my hubs are still good and not worn? How can I tell if I am a candidate for the longer axles?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 02:13 pm:

Adam -- Here's what I'd do. Buy new axles in the standard length (Lang's has them, apparently so does Ford-n-More). Use new neoprene seals on both sides of the outer Hyatt bearings and new sleeves for the bearings, at least the outer ones. Measure your inner bearings' sleeve thickness; they might be OK to re-use. New bronze thrust washers, of course. It shouldn't be too difficult to find used Hyatt bearings with 5 thou or so of wear. Those will be fine with new sleeves.

Then I'd pay Unca' Stan a visit and dig through his bone pile. He has replaced a lot of rear end innards with brand new ones, so chances are he has some pretty good used parts (certainly much better than what you have there). Try to find a set of ring and pinion gears from the same rear end, as Mike R. suggests.

You don't need to buy all new parts to have a good dependable rear end. By using good used parts, that'll cut down on the new parts you'll have to buy, and your car will have a rear end which will probably last the rest of your life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 03:02 pm:

Adam, since you say your hubs were loose on the axles your hubs are probably worn somewhat. I would use the 1/16" longer axles.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 03:32 pm:

Adam and Steve, Great pictures!! Because of my interest in photography I'd like to know what camera you used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 03:36 pm:

I'm with Steve on the bearings, by new I just meant less worn than what you probably have, not necessarily the repro ones. Also, I have the new sealed roller bearings and I love them, they are smooth and quiet and easy to grease, plus the big oring seals they come with really lock the oil in the pumpkin and out of the tubes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 03:44 pm:

Hal, I am using a Nikon P500 I like it because of the built in zoom. Its a few years old and I take it everywhere on Fires and Hunting. Its been through hell and back. I think it would take better pictures if I took my time and knew what I was doing. A little proper lighting goes along way.

Stan thanks for the offers. I might work up a trip to your place latter in the week if your around. It sounds like I need everything for this and my drive shaft.

Is there a sure fire way to tell if I have worn hubs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 05:45 pm:

Hal, my camera is a Canon Power Shot A640. A couple of months ago my old one died and I found that Canon no longer supports it. So I went on Ebay and bought one for $125 that's supposedly used, but it came with all the packaging and manuals and looks new to me. My 35mm film camera is a Canon F-1, but I have to confess I don't use it much because of the high price of film and processing these days.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Corts on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

Here is a better picture of my Right side Axle Gear.

Right Axle Gear

Is this trash? I think I will be getting new axles so I need to either transfer this to the new shaft or get a better one. Is this one serviceable or should I be looking for a better one? The teeth are good.

Right Axle Gear Teeth

Unfortunately it measured almost no wear on the housing bearing surface. (I hope I am saying this right but it the larger diameter surface just after the inner hyatt bearing that rides in the housing)What is this correct NOS measurement, I just want to make sure I have it right?


My Left Side Axle Gear looks good and the teeth look good. It does not have the pitting on the inner case surface like the Right Side. It has a small spot that you can see right below the number I wrote on it but not bad. The Bearing Surface that rides in the carrier housing measured 1.8065 as near as I can tell. That's the portion that is numbered in the picture (1.8065).

Left Axle Gear

Left Axle Gear Teeth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, March 29, 2014 - 09:48 pm:

In addition to all of the above, Be sure to check the alignment of the housings. When everything is together, without the outer bearings installed, the axles should be centered in the housing. If not, you need to straighten the housing. If these are not straight, they will wear the bearings and seals quickly and you will be right back where you started. It could even lead to breaking the axle shaft from constant flexing.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 12:50 am:

It is easy to say replace everything, but if finance is an issue then most can be reused, especially in T with a standard engine.

1. The pinion is shot and must be replaced.
2. The crown wheel is poor and a used one would be best. However the wear is due to the incorrect spacing and if set up correctly it would be usable, On balance find a better one.
3. The differential gears look OK but the spider is poor, find a better used one.
4. The axle shafts look worn but usable.
5. The inner bearings are usually OK the outer ones in poor shape. Wear down to 0.495 is acceptable.
6. When reassembling use bronze spacers, inner seals and SAE 90 or 140 oil.

This approach will cost lots less than all new parts and will give good service.
If it is for a customer who expects Toyota like warranty, then use all new parts (and hope the new stuff is better than the originals!).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Sunday, March 30, 2014 - 02:02 am:

Another thing - the ten bolts on the ring gear should be wire together in pairs. I have seen several ring gears with loose bolts when wired with a single wire that broke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, March 31, 2014 - 02:40 am:

Stan, I sent you a PM. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph A. Stearns on Monday, March 31, 2014 - 10:05 am:

Adam, I would add just one comment to the information others have provided. When you go to visit Stan, take all your parts with you. Pictures are good but a hands-on assessment from a trusted expert is the way to go.
There are some good assembly threads on "how to reassemble and set things up" in the history file to use as reference. You might want to add a small drain plug as Stan has suggested in the past.. I like the 1/8 longer axle shafts to compensate for washed out taper in the hubs--I see no down side to using them if you decide to replace the axles. I am no expert on this as I have only rebuilt three axles so rely on Stan for good advice. Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Monday, March 31, 2014 - 12:13 pm:

Adam,

Went through the same recently doing the diff on my 16. I was hoping for just a thrust washer change but ended up spending about $750 to rebuild my diff.

New axles, ring/pinion, sleeves, washers, brakes etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 11:32 pm:

Been through it twice on two different rear axles in the last two years. I agree, take all your parts with you when you go to Stan's. Consider used inner Hyatt bearings for replacements on the outboards. Check with Stan for used axle gears a little closer to nominal spec. Buy new "longer" axles. Replace the carrier and spider and spider gears. See what Stan's got. You'll want to machine the carrier to assure perpendicular it's between axle bores and ring gear. Chuck up on the outside narrow turned dia. And face the ring gear surface. At a minimum at least check it. It only take a thin facing cut. I've heard good and bad about Fun project's pinion bearing kit. I didn't use it for my rearend but only because I was made nervous by a guy who'd gone through a couple. I suspect the issue was deeper than the bearing kit but it's not for me to second guess. I suppose there's a way to put too many seals in but try. Replace your brake "shoes". I didn't get by with spending less than $650.00 on my rear axles. Replace all bearing sleeves with new. Of course new bronze thrust washers and that wobbly, loose pin is a pain, change it. Take your time and enjoy.


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