Stationary power unit

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Stationary power unit
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 09:10 am:

When using a Model T engine as a stationary power unit what would the advantage / disadvantage be in using 15? / 20? / 30? volts AC as a power supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 10:29 am:

You cannot power the T ignition with 60hz AC power and expect good results. It doesn't work properly unless the AC voltage comes from the magneto.

So bottom line there would only be disadvantages to using any outside source of AC to power the ignition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 10:53 am:

Royce, do you know what the frequency is for the T mag? PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 11:05 am:

It is variable with engine rpm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 06:42 pm:

Let us see if I can get this right?
Sixteen magnets works out to sixteen poles.
Each full cycle involves a full positive half cycle, and a full negative half cycle.
That should mean eight full cycles per revolution.
At 300 rpm (idle speed?), that would be 2400 cycles per minute?
Divided by sixty seconds per minute should be (I think?) 30 cycles per second? (Trying to do this in my head, not as good as I used to be)
So 600 rpm would be 60 cycles? That would be too easy. I must have lost it.

To expand on what Royce said. AC power not only has cycles of positive and negative pulses, it has time between those pulses that may be ramping up or down in power. Part of that time, is basically NO power at all. Depending on the condition of the condensers and points adjustment, the coils will fire the plugs only a small part of the full cycle time (that is actually part of the secret of WHY a T runs better on mag and well adjusted coils). If you were to run an engine at 600 rpm, and run the ignition off of household power? Unless the timing match was PERFECT, the firing timing would constantly advance and/or retard. This could cause problems with engine power and cooling.
All of that may be different if your were to use an electronic "square wave" power system, but that is going way, WAY, off topic.

However. is Nicholas L asking about voltage power to provide power to the engine ignition? Or is he asking what sort of power for the stationary unit to provide for something else? In that case, it would depend upon what he is providing power for and how far away the wiring has to take that power.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 07:01 pm:

RPM divided by 60 times 8 equals frequency in cycles per second.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 09:25 pm:

Well, if you must you must but plenty of guys run their T's on 6 or 12 volt batteries. Seems the easiest thing to do instead of hunting down or building a proper AC source.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 01:48 am:

Charlie
Exactly correct. A stationary engine runs at moderate and continuous speed. Operating the coils on 6 or 12 volts with careful considerations should be fine.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 08:58 am:

The proper AC frequency for a given RPM is only a small part of the issue - you now have to have the AC signal exactly in sync with the piston positions so that the firing occurs at the exact time needed. Just feeding AC to the coil box will result in firings that occur at some random time after the the timer closes rather than at a specific time as when the AC is derived from the flywheel. The exact synchronized timing is what is key here - not whether the power is AC or DC to the coil box.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 09:03 am:

The proper AC frequency for a given RPM is only a small part of the issue - you now have to have the AC signal exactly in sync with the piston positions so that the firing occurs at the exact time needed. Just feeding AC to the coil box will result in firings that occur at some random time after the the timer closes rather than at a specific time as when the AC is derived from the flywheel. The exact synchronized timing is what is key here - not whether the power is AC or DC to the coil box.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 09:18 am:

You can say that again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 09:34 am:

:-) Sorry for the double post. Not sure what happened to cause that cause that cause that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 10:00 am:

John...you made me smile!
Just like when I installed your pinion bearing setup in my T.
When something just works I tend to forget about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 11:37 am:

Many years ago, I used an electric train transformer to power a Model T coil and make a few electrified door knobs which were exciting to open.

I suspect a 24 volt ac doorbell transformer would work if it had sufficient amperage. Why not use a 12 volt battery and one of Becker's alternators on the engine and keep the unit self contained.

If you do power it thru a transformer and AC current, be sure the assembly has a good ground.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

I want to see a sine wave from a model t magneto on an oscilloscope.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 12:55 pm:

Mike,
You can see a mag output at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/427579.html?1394796932

It is not really a sine wave.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 12:55 pm:

Hook the engine to a function generator and hook the cycles per second knob to a tachometer that runs off the front pulley of the engine and "variably" adjusts the cycles provided. Or, hook up a battery and use it to start the engine and then, well then your best bet would be to switch to magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 12:57 pm:

Jim, that's interesting to look at. I'll have to take some time this evening to read the thread. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 01:14 pm:

Ted: I use the AC out put terminals from a train x-former for coil testing too. Works well with one on a quick test. Don't think it'll do for running an engine though.


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