When did the new body with the rounded doors replace the old square "1913" model in the US?
There was some discussion on when the 1914 style body first appeared in this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/364863.html?1372370570
Ken Parker wrote: "I have 312,500- and it is a '14 style touring. A friend of mine has 335,000+ and it is a '13 style touring. They seem to have been building them at the same time."
Apparently they overlapped, maybe some body suppliers were earlier than others with the change during the summer of 1913.
As an alternative to the "overlap" theory, I suggest that Ford made no effort to utilize and install engines in numerical order. Accordingly, it's not just possible, but likely that "newer" engines (those with higher serial numbers) were installed before some of the "older" engines (those with lower serial numbers) were installed. This could explain why some cars with newer bodies have older engines.
Back then there were also car numbers stamped onto patent plates on the firewall, not connected to the engine #, so if engines were stored in warehouses and installed in a mixed order like last in/first out, then car numbers would always be higher on 1914 style cars.
An engine serialized 335,000 is from late August 1913 when both 1913 and 1914 bodies would have been in the factory. It does not seem unreasonable to believe Ken Parker's friend has a car with its original 1913 body.
Since Ford had so much trouble with the '13 bodies, I'm sure they introduced the '14 style earlier than normal.
Now comes the crunch, does anybody know when Canada changed over?
I don't know when the last 1913 style or first 1914 style was made (I assume they could have overlapped), but our 1913 style Canadian touring was assembled in August 1913.
Hi John, have you an engine and body number? It will help us collate further Canadian information.
My touring car is the 1913 style. Body by Beaudette. The engine number is 326,955 (August 12, 1913).
When was C6150 assembled? I have November 1913. Ray Green from Bathurst, are you out there?
According to the Encyclopedia, C5736 has a casting date of 10/20/13 so C6150 would have been assembled later than 10/20/13. Does it have a 1913-style body?
Our car is C2617 with a 3/28/13 casting date. The car appears to have many late 1913 features. We have a letter from Herman Smith that says they found a ledger for the first year of engine production in Canada and engine C2716 was assembled on August 12, 1913. I don't know if he transposed the engine numbers (2617 vs 2716) when looking it up or when writing the letter.
I've been trying to find that engine ledger - any help would be greatly appreciated!
Hi David, Im just traveling through and saw this thread, on reading this there are a few points that come to mind but remember my interest is only in Canadian cars that were shipped to the British Commonwealth which are a rarer vehicle, having four doors was one feature.
Number (1) when it comes to engines in Canada or the US there can be no order to when they were used and the blocks could sit in the warehouse for a few months or all of winter before use as its was not first in first out which has be proved so many times its not funny any more and Peter Kable has paper work to prove it.
(2) Bodies, there really was no over lap as production was not on the same scale so Detroit. The only over lap was when a dealer did not sell fast enough to move the older model out here.
The 1913 body came from three places for Canada from what I can find in the paper work I had and gave to the Ford archives. Many of the bodies were made at the plant with all the left over parts and fitting being dumped there from Detroit ranging from left over 1912 to 1913 parts to start the plant and to be used up while the US plant went into the new body stile near the end of 1913 production. My car has many 1912 parts on it but was not made in the US or Walkerville plant, from the ID plate on the car it came from FORD CITY plant which was really the brass production area for Ford, the plate is a different shape and states Ford Motor Co. Ford Ontario and the number was stamped by hand as one number was stamped in the reverse then re-stamped again on top. There is enough paper work in the archives to prove the amount of bodies shipped across the river and I sure Hap could supply that in what he has but the new bodies hit around the end of September that year and the last of the old bodies was used in October with the engine number around C6500 from memory and the old stock ran out or was kept as replacement parts which when you read the 1914/15 parts book it lists both 1913 and 14 bodies. If I get a chance tomorrow I will go up to the loft and see what I can dig up for you David.
To John, According to my lists on Canadian numbers C5736 dose have a casting date of 10/20/13 but so dose C6461 and C 6479 which backs up the block storage from made to use. All these numbers come with in the old body stile so it would be interesting to see what body is on C5736.
I will attempt to find the owner but that was many years ago.
(Quote) Our car is C2617 with a 3/28/13 casting date.) Block casting date 3/21/13 was made seven days before yours and it has a engine number of C1202 which was 1400 engines before your number so your block sat at the back of the pile once again.
(Quote) We have a letter from Herman Smith that says they found a ledger for the first year of engine production in Canada and engine C2716 was assembled on August 12, 1913. I don't know if he transposed the engine numbers (2617 vs 2716) when looking it up or when writing the letter.)
I have no faith in Mr Smiths expert findings as he is proved wrong so many times which you have pointed out in the last part of your quote as C2617 was assembled in June/early July 1913 at the latest as by August the numbers had reached C3838 and that number came off a block that is owned by a club member and sits in line with what Bruce wrote in the book. Ray
David, Block C6150 was used around the end of August to early September and from other blocks around that number were delivered to Queensland motors but as some things never are as seen a few could have ended up in other states as we use to ship blocks around the country for cash. I purchased many from the later teens in Victoria and sold them in New South Wales and Queensland and so did other collectors like me bring blocks from Queensland back here. There was a glut of NOS 1915 and 1918 blocks on the market here in the 1970's and 80's. with no engine numbers and I have seen the 1918's chiseled into 1913 but they never looked correct... Ray
We know that the Canadian blocks were used in a seemingly random order, but unless the casting date was done wrong, we can be pretty sure that the engine and associated car were made after that date.
Pulling some data from the Encyclopedia and research done by others such as Ray and Peter Kable, here are some examples of engine numbers and casting dates:
C1-C324 was built after 05/20/13 (C1 build date - Ford Archives?)
C325-C3760 was built after 06/28/13 (C325 casting date)
C3861-C4710 was built after 08/13/13 (C3861 casting date)
C4711-C5735 was built after 09/03/13 (C4711 casting date)
C5736-C9644 was built after 10/20/13 (C5736 casting date)
C9645-> was built after 12/15/13 (C9645 casting date)
These would have been the earliest possible dates. In many cases they were much later of course. For example, a block with a 8/12/13 casting date had a C3861 engine number while a block with a 8/10/13 casting date had a C11650 engine number.
While adding some more engine numbers and casting dates can help, I'd still like to find a ledger or some other original source to better define when these engine numbers were used.
Ray - I'd be curious to know why you believe that the engine numbers had reached C3838 by August 1913 - is this from a shipping invoice?
Hi John, Well john, when Peter and I started chasing those numbers we saw a lot odd blocks and restored cars but Peter had access to the shipping manifests in the NSW archives which at this time I do not, it listed what came in on each boat also I know that C323 was driving the back roads out here in Oct 1913 as there is reference to it in photos from that time, I would need to check the NSW marriage register and I can pin it to a day.
A car that I saw in England when I was over there in 1980 was C3780 dated 7/7/13 which the owner had paper work to show it had been on the road before the end of 1913 in a English T Body.
From what I can find out is that some of the the C6000 series of car with those numbers arrived here in the end of 1913 and with a three to four month transport time and counting back it fits into August 1913. As Peter spent more time in the Archives than I did and held and read the import papers he could still have his notes or copies. There is one sheet of paper in a file in my loft with a count of cars and numbers that were unloaded in late 1913 so I will look for it, my biggest problem in having the actual record was that I gave a lot of my paper work to the Australian Ford Archives which is now unknown were it has gone plus I sent a copy to Bruce and I sold off a lot of it some time back as I was really pissed off with Model T's and other people. After I come home from town to day I will go and search for you... Ray
John, I should point out that the numbers were collected from the owners and from sighting the block, those numbers came from New Zealand, all states of Australia and England, C325 was from the owners admission but after the book was printed I had a chance to check and I am sure the owner was cross eyed as he saw a 6 and I saw the remains of a 3 but as the project was finished I have never corrected the sheets as it has no bearing on the data any more. C324 is here some were and it will be found one day in the records.. Ray
Hi Ray & all, I have an early 13 Touring....engine/serial #184994 with body stamped F196910. It has the 12 style frame, muffler and early style rear tail light bracket. The head lamps are brass. The side & tail lamps are black & brass.
The son of the owner who found the car in a garage in the early 50's removed the I.D. plate from the firewall before his dad traded the car for a POPE chassis. The son put the original I.D. plate on his 13 speedster he was building. Tried to buy the I.D. plate and he will not sell it.
The car was never a frame off restoration....they painted over the original paint....the Lacquer is pealing. The touring also has a Sleeper style front seat back with brass latches.
Does the body no. seem correct for the engine no. ? Would the I.D. plate have the same no. as the engine?
Don't know about your body # Les, maybe Hap recognises it - but your car # would usually have been lower than the engine serial #. They began to drift away from eachother on US built cars in 1911 and the distance between them tended to increase until car # no longer were recorded or stamped in the patent plate sometime during the 1915 model year. Maybe the difference was caused by the sales of complete engines as spares ?
Hi Les, first up the car problem has been sorted out and we are under way again so thank you so much for your help. Now as to your body number which is much higher than the one on my car. I have body number F 18293 and engine C323 and it falls in line with three other bodies out here on as you say "barn find" or original cars. Mine has brass lights all round but the tail lamp was never found in the remains of the shed or house so I fitted a E&J which looks out of place.... Ray
My question stems around what I think may be a very early Canadian assembled "1914" style car but assembled in 1913. Hence my question about the body change over in the US and then what we know about our cousins over the border.
Just to recap we know Canada changed to the "1913" car in November 1912. A surviving car here is #178294 and when found had all brass headlights, brass generator, all brass horn, he top frame of the windscreen was also brass but painted black.
I am now trying to sort out when Canada changed to the 1914 style body.
Listing what 1913 Canadian assembled data cars we know and the body numbers is quite revealing.
#178294, has body number F11536.
C323, has body number F13020.
C86X, has body number F175X0
C1651, has body number F18293.
C4010, has body number F19354
C5275, has body number F20033
C6479, has body number F28150
One significant facts from this information is it appears that only Fisher made the 1913 bodies, both touring and roadsters for Canada. Did they continue to make bodies for Canada into 1914?
Recently I was going through some photos of a car originally found in Tasmania, body number F32854. Sadly we don't know thre original engine number as the Canadian Patent Plate is missing. With only a single data point here we are stretching things pretty thins to say the least. We need more 1914 information. Can you lucky Canadian 1914 car owners please check their cars so we can add to our knowledge?
Meanwhile here are couple of photos of 1914 tourer body F32854...
Hey David, I am now cross eyed as I put the wrong body number, I'm starting to slip and that car could be looking for a new owner soon. my car is F13020.
I have to many photos on this dam thing. Sorry Les
to miss lead you, its all these long nights talking with the boy in Afghanistan and David I will be on the road for the next four days so catch you when I get home, will have the lap top with me if it works.. Ray