Does the engine no. on an early 13 match the engine no.?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Does the engine no. on an early 13 match the engine no.?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 07:39 pm:

I have an early 13 touring.....engine/serial #184994 with a body stamped #F196910. It has the 12 style frame, muffler and early 13 style tail lamp bracket. The head lamps are brass (12 Style). Side & tail lamps are black & brass.
The Son of the owner who bought the car which was stored in a garage around 1950 removed the firewall mounted I.D. plate before his Dad traded the T for a POPE chassis.
The Son put the I.D. plate on his built up roadster he was building and will not sell it....I have tried!
Our 13 was never a frame off restoration...they painted the body while still on the frame. The touring also has a Sleeper style folding front seat back with side brass latches.
The missing I.D. plate left an outline on the firewall approx. 3-5/8" L. x 2" H. with four small holes located above the steering tube flange.

Does the body no. seem correct for the engine no. ?
Would the I.D. plate have the same no. as the engine no. ?
If not, does anyone have an I.D. plate that would be correct and would be willing to part with it?
I have looked at repro I.D. plates listed in vendor catalogs but no size is given....not sure what to order?

Appreciate your guidance and help.

Thanks,
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 07:46 pm:

The ID plate would never have matched. Normally the engine VIN is higher than the body (missing) patent tag number. The Fisher number is unrelated to the engine serial or body patent tag number.

I would guess the headlamps are either replacements, or they were originally painted black and someone liked them better in bare brass.

The early style frame was used for all but the last of 1913 production, it is expected. The tail lamp bracket is expected with that engine serial number.

I think it all sounds like original stuff. The headlamps should be painted black except the rims and chimneys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 07:47 pm:

Boy, did I screw up the Topic title...should be "Engine no. match the I.D. plate no."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 08:09 pm:

According to the engine no. listing, the car would have been made 4th. of Jan. 1913. Could it be possible that the car came with brass front head lamps. How many were produced with the 12 style muffler? With out dated parts being used up to save costs.....can you be sure that no 1913 model T's produced in early January left the production line with brass head lamps? I understand that some may have even left the production line with brass windshields?
Not looking for an argument. Is there a listing for my car that would define what lamps came with the car? I know....general knowledge....that 13's were black & brass like 14's. However, with very early change over years, there still some question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 08:10 pm:

Henry announced, at about the end of Fiscal 1911, that the I.D. numbers would no longer agree with the engine numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 08:11 pm:

According to the engine no. listing, the car would have been made 4th. of Jan. 1913. Could it be possible that the car came with brass front head lamps. How many were produced with the 12 style muffler? With out dated parts being used up to save costs.....can you be sure that no 1913 model T's produced in early January left the production line with brass head lamps? I understand that some may have even left the production line with brass windshields?
Not looking for an argument. Is there a listing for my car that would define what lamps came with the car? I know....general knowledge....that 13's were black & brass like 14's. However, with very early change over years, there still some question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 08:14 pm:

Les, unfortunately, the Ford shipping records that generally listed the brand of items on the car no longer exist, except for early 1909 through about 1911.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

Your serial number plate for the dashboard should be at least 10,000 earlier than the engine number. It appears your car had the later plate on it, BUT, you can't be sure the plate that was on it was the original either. Most T's of you vintage, had the large serial number plate on the firewall, and the tailamp bracket should have taken off from the back left hand corner of your body. Those large plates do show up from time to time, so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 09:21 pm:

Thank you for your guidance. Will be looking for a serial number plate at the Bakersfield swap meet. I will be in space O & P. Any one having a subject plate that would work for my car.....or seeing one at the swap meet.....please let me know. Now knowing that the plate should not match the engine no......would like to find an original vice repro. Also, the tail lamp bracket is as you described Larry.

I plan on keeping the 12 style brass head lamps that were there in 1950. The car is very much the same as it was when found. It also came with leather upholstery. Has a 1915 Calif. badge style plate still on the firewall....do not know why it was not removed also. Has a small black steel frame holder....like what an early registration slip would be retained in. Do not know how original that is. I put together a set of Bud wire wheels that are round and truer than the original wood wheels. Much smoother when driving. Will keep the original wheels and other items I have changed on the engine for the next owner.

Ordered a SCATT crankshaft.....did they ever go up in price. No more $1250.00 SCATT crankshafts! Should have included one for me when building engines for others. Yesterday's high prices are today's bargains.

Larry, do you have a serial number plate in your stash that could be available to another 13 owner?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - 12:24 am:

Larry, What made the Serial Number plate on the dash be at least 10,000 earlier than the Engine Number??? My 1914 Runabout numbers are even wider apart. Engine # 395707 12/16/1913
Firewall Plaque # 371928 11/13/1913
Engine Cast date 11/22/13
Thanks Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - 04:21 am:

Maybe Ford was selling complete numbered engines as spares, thus the difference between car numbers and engine numbers increased as more and more old T's needed new engines?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - 11:23 am:

Why was the firewall plate even numbered? What was the significance for each plate having a different number? Were the firewalls outsourced along with having the plate attached? Interesting that a 13 model T would have an engine, body and firewall plate number all having different numbers.
In Califunny....the DMV can be a real pain....If one of their VIN tech's realized that....you may never get a model T registered.

As an example....a 1910 2cyl. Maxwell has a I.D. plate attached to the front kick panel which should match the engine number....this makes since!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Woolf on Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - 12:03 pm:

Les,

Our '13 T has an engine number of 183,XXX with a casting date of 12-13-12 if I remember correctly. It has the large ID plate, but someone stamped the ID plate to match the body number. I understand that the body number and ID plate would not have matched from the factory. I assume the previous owner found an NOS ID plate and stamped the number to match the body.

Dan


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