I am working on a 23 coupe and pulled off both wheels to restore. The rims that the spokes / fellows go into are very different and I wanted to know which would be correct for a 1923. I have 30" X 3 1/2" tires.
* Measures 22 3/4 from edge to edge across the center of the Hub
*Where the fellow joins the rim , there is an actual hole in the steel that the fellow tip goes thru to rest.
* There is a simple hold in the steel to allow the valve stem of the tube to rest in.
*Measures 23 1/4 from edge to edge across the center of the Hub.
*Where the fellow joins the rim is a metal recessed divit that the fellow rests in.
* On the outside of the rim that would be facing the Demountable rim is a small piece of steel in the shape of a "C". It surrounds the opening where the valve stem would stick thru.
Which would be the correct rim?
I welcome your comments.
Scott, most likely the rim A would be correct. I think rim B is after market, I don't remember the brand though. I would probably try to go with rim A as it will be easier to find spokes for. I have several of the B style and see no problem with the dimple style spokes if they are tight, that applies to either style. KGB
I would recommend posting a few photos as that will make it a lot easier for some of us or at least me to better visualize what you shared using only words above. I may be the only one, but it sounds like you may be using the terms rim and felloe interchangeably in some sentences. The pictures would probably clear that up for me or it may not even be a factor for other folks.
Below is a typical Kelsey wheel and felloe which came in other variations also:
Below shows a typical Firestone/Cleveland/Ford felloe and a typical Hayes/Ford style felloe. Note some of those had variations in design.
Please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377 and especially the ones that Peter Kable posted:
By peter kable on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 10:51 pm: and By peter kable on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 11:12 pm: that discuss variations in the Hayes fellow.
If you post some photos showing the felloe (the metal part that the spokes are pressed into and that the demountable rim attaches to) especially the valve stem area and the area where the lug bolts go through, it should be much easier to figure out what you have.
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Hap I think he was mixing terms some what but was actually referring to one type that you show that the spoke has a tenon, the other type simply has a rounded end that fits into a dimple in the felly. KGB
I do not yet know what years the spoke with the dimpled felloe were used.
Yes, I think you are correct that is probably what Scott is talking about.
Minor correction, it appears that Ford did equip some cars from the factory with that type of spoke and dimpled fellow arrangement. Below is repeated from a previous posting.
Longer answer: Ford had many different wheel suppliers who made the wheels that were put on at the Factory (or branches if assembled there). Which manufacture(s) and when they made the 30 x 3 1/2 wheels with the demountable fellows with the dimples rather than the holes for the spoke tennons (dowel shape) to go through – I don’t know yet. Also I suspect but I can’t document it one way or the other, that Ford may have sold some cars that way with the 21 inch balloon tires. And of course there probably was an aftermarket maker as well as another car company that had a similar design. So the wheels you have may or may not actually be supplied by Ford. But if they have the Ford hub – they surely could have been supplied by Ford. That style was probably not used as much as the more common fellow with the hole for the spoke tennon / dowel to fit through. Several folks have reported seeing only a few of them and there are only 4 or 5 postings on both forums concerning them.
Below is a drawing that Tom Mullin posted on the MTFCI forum [possibly Ford factory number T-3420-A?] . It clearly shows that Ford had a factory drawing for that type of spoke. Note it is an optical illusion. If you look at it sometimes the drawing has a bump on the top and sometimes it appears to have a depression on the top. Based on the use of the spoke – it really has a bump upwards that fits into the depression/dimple of the metal fellow used with the demountable 30 x 3 1/2 rim.
That complete thread was located at: http://www.modeltforum.org/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config_512.pl?read=94832 but appears to no longer be available. If you have access to the original thread please be sure to read it all as some items were corrected later in the thread.
I would like some help in tracking down a little more information.
1. Would someone please provide pictures of the actual fellow showing the dimpled area? Also where the rim bolts would go so we can see if any of them have the raised slit areas for the Kelsey 88 lugs [see the photo earlier in this posting]. Also of the valve stem area – is there a cup for the valve stem to fit through or just a hole in the felloe? –
2. Does anyone have a 21 inch demountable with that style of fellow with the dimple?
3. Any other markings on the rims or wheels to indicate which company manufactured them or the year they may have been available?
4. Any dates for the T-3420-A drawings etc.?
Some related items:
Looking in Bruce’s Parts CD – Ford evidently never listed individual spokes for sale in the parts list. The factory number (not part number) T-3420 was used for the front wheel spoke for the non-demountable 30 x 3 front wheel in Ford’s factory catalog dated 1920. T-3421 was listed as the spoke for the rear wheel 30 x 3 1/2 in that same document. So I would guess that wheel rebuilding wasn’t encouraged by Ford or that the local blacksmith could do the job for so little that there was not a market.
Measure twice – order once. While looking for this information I ran across where an owner took his wheels apart, sent the metal parts off to be sandblasted and powder coated. He ordered the spokes for his wheels. After sanding and varnishing the spokes he discovered that the spokes he had would not fit the wheels he had. It turn out that some of the wheels that Ford sold on the cars do NOT have replacement spokes offered by the major vendors. For example: – the spokes with the bump rather than the tennon are not listed in the vendor catalogs. The spokes for the wood fellow wheels are not being offered. The spokes for the metal fellow non-demountable are not being offered.
Don’t throw the old parts away -- Unfortunately the owner above had already thrown the original spokes away, so they were not available as a sample to compare when the new spokes arrived. Also they could not be used as a pattern etc. any longer.
Any additional clues would be welcomed.
One owner of the dimpled felloe wheels reported his dimpled felloe wheels had tight spokes and worked great for him for the 8 years he owned the car.
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Scott, in Hap's first picture the felloe (also called felly) is the black part. The tenons of the spokes fit into it. The rim (the part which holds the tire) isn't shown.
I agree with Hap, it would help to show pictures for those of us who have trouble picturing verbal descriptions.
Hap, I will try and take some pics of the dimpled felly tomorrow, I have a couple and will have to dig them out. KGB
Sorry Guys. It was late and I didn't want to mess with trying to upload the pics. I them attached and sorry for the "guess work".
With that notch over the bolt hole, Felloe B looks like the ones I've been using with Hayes rims. But I've never seen one of those with only dimples before.
The black felloe is for split rims. The one in primer is for clincher rims. You can almost see the notch by the bolt.
Here's a better look at that notch over the bolt hole. I gather this is a Hayes wheel because the Hayes clincher rims fit it so nicely, but I really don't know. Maybe somebody who knows wheels better than I do can confirm or correct that.