Is your car's flag Model T correct???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Is your car's flag Model T correct???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 10:04 am:

Here are the correct flags for your Model T. If you're not prepared to use the period correct flag perhaps consider a more modern car...hehe


USA (46 stars In use 4 July 19083 July 1912):





USA (48 stars In use for 47 years from July 4, 1912, to July 3, 1959):





Canada 1868-1921:





Canada 1921-1957:





Australia (correct flag for use by civilians during the Model T era):



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 10:06 am:

Very cool I have the 48 star flags that come with the flag holders I manufacture, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 10:17 am:

I believe the main reason why early brass cars demand much higher prices is because you can use the 46 star flag...hehe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 11:52 am:

The 46 star flag is what was flying on the Titanic's fore mast as she left Queenstown, Ireland 102 years ago today......

Bound for a destination she would never see.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 11:51 pm:

I find it interesting that a British ship would be flying the American flag, was this a courtesy for the next port of call?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 12:03 am:

That is a typical thing to do, so probably was.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 09:11 am:

The White Star Line was American owned at the time. More or less. It was owned by International Mercantile Marine (IMM) with J P Morgan in control. Why the American flag was flown I'd guess is because of JP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 09:27 am:

You all are correct White Star (a British company) was owned by the IMM (a US monopoly controlled by J.P. Morgan) but the reason the US flag was flying from the foremast was that the US was her next country of destination. She flew the French flag crossing the Channel the day before when she stopped in Cherbourg. The flag on the stern was of course the Union Jack country of registry. Flying from the rear or mainmast was the White Star burgee.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

I bought an old decal back in the '60s with 48 stars. It's on my windshield to this day, and looks like it has been on for much longer than it has.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 11:42 pm:

Correct danish flag 1219 - present:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 05:36 am:

Hey Constantine, that Australian flag is the red ensign and as far as I know its for civil craft and found on Australian shipping and other boats, it is not the National flag which was passed in 1909 and current today, the blue back ground is the national flag and is correct for sticking on your car, I watched people put the giant rat with gloves on their car or other event which is very down grading.
Go and check you books on that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 07:10 am:

1901 to 1954, the red ensign was used as a civil flag by state and local government, private organisations and individuals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 07:48 am:

Hi Ray,

Correct, the red ensign is still used today for Australian merchant ships.

In the Model T era though, three flags were being used as the Australian flag; blue ensign, red ensign, and federation flag. Also the British flag was still widely seen. There was much confusion in the early 20th century about which flag should be used. Many postcards, posters etc. from WW1 often used the red ensign not the blue.

Below quote from quick Google search:

"From 1901 to 1954 the Red Ensign was used as a civil flag by State and local governments, private organisations and individuals. The Blue Ensign was reserved for use by the Commonwealth Government, the Australian Olympic team and the military as a saluting flag at all reviews and ceremonial parades. In 1941, Prime Minister Robert Menzies stated that there should be no restrictions on private citizens using the Blue Ensign on land and, in 1947, Prime Minister Ben Chifley reaffirmed this position but it wasn't until the passage of the Flags Act 1953 that the restriction on civilians flying the Blue Ensign was lifted after which use of the Red Ensign on land became a rarity."

So based on that, I think it's fair to say that's it's more likely that someone in 1913 (the year of my car and yours) would have flown the red ensign from their car.

The good thing is that the red ensign flag is still easy to find. Saw a good sized one at the Vic Market on Sunday for $7.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 07:51 am:

History of the Australian flag

"In August and September 1901 judges appointed by the Commonwealth government worked through over 30 000 competition entries to select a design for two Australian flags one with a blue ground for official use, the other with a red ground for merchant ships. The judges, representing naval and shipping expertise, chose a design for these flags as submitted in five of the entries. The blue flag was first flown from the Exhibition Building Melbourne on 3 September 1901 when the winning design was announced this was a huge flag (36 by 18 feet), made to order for the occasion.

King Edward VII's approval of the chosen design, slightly simplified, in 1902 was gazetted in February 1903. In June the same year the Admiralty authorised the flying of the red merchant flag on ships registered in Australia. (From February 1922, when the Navigation Act 191220 took effect, this was compulsory.) The design was further modified in 1908 to give the Commonwealth six-pointed star (each of its points representing a State) another point to represent Papua and any future territories, making it consistent with the star in the Commonwealth Coat of Arms authorised that year.

The Commonwealth Government, at the time the design was approved in 1901, regarded the two Australian flags as colonial flags, with the Union Flag, usually called the Union Jack, continuing to serve as the national flag. Within the British Empire, blue and red flags (called ensigns) served primarily to identify ships at sea the blue indicated a government ship and the red a privately owned vessel. That is why the British Admiralty controlled their design.

Only after pressure from Australian nationalists, especially Richard Crouch, Member of the House of Representatives, did the Commonwealth government begin to use the blue Australian flag for Australia's naval forces in 1903. After the House of Representatives passed a special resolution in June 1904, the blue flag was also flown from post offices and Commonwealth buildings in Melbourne and Sydney on national occasions. However, that flag did not replace the Union Flag on forts until 1908, and on the jackstaff on the bow of warships until 1911. Despite these changes in the regulations, the Australian flag was sometimes overlooked. Its absence at the ceremony at Fremantle to welcome the arrival of the first Australian cruiser from Britain in 1913 caused an outcry by nationalists.

The Commonwealth government's reluctance to use the Australian flag also reflected disapproval of its design. At the time of its selection in 1901, some critics, especially in New South Wales, thought the design too similar to Victoria's flag, as the designers had simply removed the crown above the Southern Cross constellation on the Victorian flag and added the Commonwealth star. Many of those critics preferred a flag widely used in eastern Australia during the 19th century, which had become an important symbol in the Federation campaign. This British white ensign featured a blue cross bearing white stars. Edmund Barton had in 1898 persuaded the Federal Association of New South Wales to recommend this flag as the flag of the new Commonwealth. As the first Prime Minister, Barton forwarded this design, as well as the winning design from the competition, to the British government. Later Prime Ministers, John C Watson from New South Wales and Andrew Fisher from Queensland, also thought the selected design unsuitable.

The First World War popularised the use of flags, especially Australian flags, on land. More people also wanted to put Australian flags in state schools, where the Union Flag had largely flown unchallenged since Federation. There was widespread confusion about which was Australia's national flag the Union Flag or an Australian flag. In the volatile politics of post-war Australia, an Australian flag, unless accompanied by a Union Flag, became a symbol of disloyalty, since the Union Flag was widely regarded as the national flag. That was the flag used to cover the coffins of Australia's most popular war heroes, Sir John Monash and Albert Jacka VC, in 1931 and 1932. There was also confusion about which Australian flag the red or the blue could be used by various levels of government and by the people.

In 1924 the Commonwealth government, after much indecision, advised State governments that the Australian blue flag was for Commonwealth use only. Protest forced reconsideration of the issue, and the concession that State governments could use the Australian flag if State flags were not available. However, private organisations and individuals, and even state schools wishing to use an Australian flag were expected to use the red one. Strangely, the official painting of the opening of Parliament House in 1927 features the red Australian flag.

The Victorian Government challenged this direction in relation to State schools in 1938, and, unable to get a response from the Commonwealth, legislated in 1940 to allow schools to fly the Australian blue flag. This increased pressure on the Commonwealth government led it to announce in 1941 and again in 1947 that there was no longer a restriction on the use of that flag.

Finally, when arrangements were being completed for the presentation of an Australian flag to every school as part of the Commonwealth Jubilee celebrations in 1951, a decision had to be made as to whether that flag would be blue or red. The Menzies Government in December 1950 proclaimed the blue flag as the Australian national flag, and subsequently prepared the legislation which became the Flags Act 1953. The Prime Minister expected that the practice of flying the Australian flag and the Union Flag together on national occasions would continue. He also ensured that Section 8 of the Act maintained a person's 'right or privilege', defined in Britain in 1908, to fly the Union Flag."

from:
http://www.foundingdocs.gov.au/item-did-20.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 09:34 am:

Michael, Each August there is a Danish Festival held in Greenville, Michigan. It's a major attraction with many events. Many Danish settled in this area as the forest were being cleared and farming took over in the late 1800 and early 1900s. Danish flags are in abundance during the festival and we have them on our antique cars for our club car show and the parade. You can Google the Greenville Danish Festival for information and pictures.
Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 10:17 am:

Constantine, I think you need to check photos from the teens and you will not see one flag as you have shown, all my photos from the first world war show the English flag and again no Aus flag, Kerry I remember 1954 very well as we all were given blue flags to wave at the Queen, the streets of Sydney were a wash with them as for the colony of south Australia I really would not know. I would not be putting that flag on my car and and there is no chance in hell that I would put the roo flag on my car as I see it with total contempt.
As to the 1953 flag act, they could not even get that right as if my memory serves me for once with what I saw in the archives in Canberra the act had to be hand written over as the dates were wrong when presented to the Queen and changed to 1954 so she could sign it. I remember well as I sat in Bob Menzies office in parliament house and he had blue with white fringe on it. My flag is BLUE and my photos show blue so thats it. As for a good one at the markets, was it a 5' by 3' or bigger for $7. There is one in my shed hanging on the wall and its big enough to cover a car as it fell off the back of a bulk transport vessel also my first family members raised the first non British flag in the colony of NSW in honour of the victory in the battle of Trafalgar in 1805, look up the Bowman flag from Richmond.. Ray .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 11:39 am:

Ray; well, if I was you I'd without doubt have a Bowman flag on my car! That's great. Are you a direct descendent of John and Honor Bowman?

I wasn't around in 1954 so I'm sure you know better than me about that time, but there's no doubt the red ensign was being used during the Model T era and beyond, see:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-flags/red_ensign_2.htm

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-flags/red_ensign_3.htm

The red ensign at the market was I think slightly bigger than the size you mentioned; just the right size to decorate a Model T. Though, I'd of course love to have an Australian flag that was big enough to cover my car...long as it was the red ensign! It's just that having the blue ensign MIGHT open me up to the sleep robbing accusation of being period incorrect. Constantine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 11:46 am:



NX3048 Sergeant Richard Sydney Turner was born in Sydney in 1916. He enlisted on 28 October 1939 and served with 6 Division Supply Column, Australian Army Service Corps. After service in Africa he was captured by the Germans near Megara during the Greek campaign in June 1941, but escaped from the train taking him to Germany. He was initially sheltered by the Greeks but this became too dangerous when Italian troops offered large rewards for the capture of Allied soldiers and threatened to shoot anyone harbouring them. Turner and a companion hid in the mountains south of Thessaly during the winter of 1941-1942. Weak from malnutrition and malaria he was considering of giving himself up when he met Ioannis Kallinikos from the village of Livanatas, who sheltered him for the next year and a half. Turner joined the Greek resistance in the summer of 1943 and led a band of fifty Greek andartes. He later joined the British Military Mission in Greece (Force 133), which operated behind German lines. He was awarded the Military Medal for his endurance and service in Greece. Turner was killed by Greek communist insurgents, during the civil war which broke out in Greece following the withdrawal of the Axis forces, on 17 December 1944 while in a truck on his way to Athens airport to be repatriated to Australia. Turner carried this small flag throughout his service in North Africa and Greece.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 12:43 pm:

Sergeant Tom Derrick hoists the Australian Red Ensign at Sattelberg, New Guinea



Thomas Currie "Diver" Derrick VC, DCM (20 March 1914 24 May 1945) was an Australian recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest decoration for gallantry "in the face of the enemy" awarded to members of the British and Commonwealth armed forces. In November 1943, during the Second World War, Derrick was awarded the Victoria Cross for his assault on a heavily defended Japanese position at Sattelberg, New Guinea. During the engagement, he scaled a cliff face while under heavy fire and silenced seven machine gun posts, before leading his platoon in a charge that destroyed a further three.

Born in the Adelaide suburb of Medindie, South Australia, Derrick left school at the age of fourteen and found work in a bakery. As the Great Depression grew worse he lost his job and moved to Berri, working on a fruit farm before marrying in 1939. In July 1941, Derrick enlisted in the Second Australian Imperial Force, joining the 2/48th Battalion. He was posted to the Middle East, where he took part in the Siege of Tobruk, was recommended for the Military Medal and promoted to corporal. Later, at El Alamein, Derrick was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for knocking out three German machine gun posts, destroying two tanks, and capturing one hundred prisoners.

Derrick returned to Australia with his battalion in February 1943, before transferring to the South West Pacific Theatre where he fought in the battle to capture Lae. Back in Australia the following February he was posted to an officer cadet training unit, being commissioned lieutenant in November 1944. In April 1945 his battalion was sent to the Pacific island of Morotai, an assembly point for the Allied invasion of the Philippines. Engaged in action the following month on the heavily defended hill Freda on Tarakan Island Derrick was hit by five bullets from a Japanese machine gun. He died from his wounds on 24 May 1945.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 08:50 am:

Hi Constantine, "Im Back" now Sergeant Tom Derrick has raised his flag after the Japs had left we do not know if it was red or blue so lets say red, and he acquired it some were. By the way done believe all that you read on the internet as it was put there by individuals with no proof reading but lets dig a bit deeper. now here are four attachments to check out, No.1 is a blue flag but made of silk like cloth but the blue has turned purple from the light or age and I will not tell you who's office this came from. 1950's
No.2 is a drop pamphlet from WW2 that was dropped over the jap held islands and bases telling them to lay down their guns as the Americans have just taken their surrender. 1945 to 46.
No.3 is the photo of the magazine printed for the ANZACS in 1915 to 18 Note the colour of the flags.
No.4 is the flag from the WW1 that was flown over the troops and carried by a Sergeant S Higlett 5th light Horse and 54th bombardment Regiment.
He had it in his back pack the day he was blown up in the Somme area and taken back to England.
can we see what is not there, red flags and as all photos are black and white we will not know, I can keep finding bits to add here and so can you, I use history books, not the internet and thank you as its been fun in the jousting but I do not have time to play for the next few weeks as I have two very large WW1 displays to set up and type out and the a historic vehicle display at the up coming show. so I will be out till the 6th may but you know were to find me for a chat as Im home most nights and as a OT my grandmother was John Bowman granddaughter Maria E Bowman.. Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 01:58 pm:

Ray, I will not ask how got managed to get your hands on the PM's now purple ensign. Looks rather big, was it hanging on a wall?

Books? They still make those? Joke...but you're quite right that not all info on the internet is correct; neither are all books for that matter.
The Australian War Memorial website can be trusted I believe, and I'm sure you agree. There's no shortage of proof there that the red ensign was used extensively from 1900 to 1950.

Poster published by the Department of Munitions in 1942, see:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/ARTV02273/


Framed Australian red ensign, Gallipoli. Sergeant P E Virgoe, 4 Light Horse Regiment (1915):

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL33224/


State Recruiting Committee poster (1916):

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/ARTV07335/


You wrote above that you would never put the red ensign on your car. That's fine. If you put the blue ensign or the Union Jack on your car that's perfectly period correct. I though think the red ensign is a better choice for a Model T because I believe it's more the likely flag of the three to have been used by a civilian (someone not connected to the Australian government).

OT - I have a quite a number British military books, maps and other items from WW1. Do you know much about these? I like to know whether I have anything rare or valuable.

Constantine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 02:35 pm:

Denmark has us all beat flying the same flag since 1219.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Phillips on Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 04:21 pm:

I'm with eddie

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 05:00 pm:

John, the Danes just have no imagination.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 16, 2014 - 05:19 pm:

Something else in keeping with the flag theme.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxZvDTnlvKM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 11:30 am:

Does anybody know where to find the small flags that will fit a radiator neck flag holder? I'm working on one for a class and would prefer using period-correct flags.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 12:58 pm:

Jared, scroll up this thread. On April 11, Bob Bergstadt posted about flags for a flag holder.


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