Still dragging

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Still dragging
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

Hi Guys,

Newbie here - 16 touring restoration.

I'm still trying to figure out why I'm having so much drag. I was looking at the model t lubrication chart and noticed my front drive bearing didn't have a lubrication fitting. It only had a cap on it ( labeled 'A'). The bottom only had a cap as well, but I replaced it with a grease fitting (bottom view labeled 'c')

Should there be a fitting in the spot labeled "A"?

if so, what size fitting should I order? It appears this is were the pin is that holds the drive shaft onto the universal.

What am I missing here? Please excuse the lack of depth of field - not much light down there :-)

Thanks so much for the help!

Kind regards,

Michaeltop viewbottom view


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 02:33 pm:

Michael, it appears your torque tube was installed upside down. The zerk fitting should be on the top. The plug A is just an access hole for the U-joint pin. Also, there is a hole in the ball on the end of the torque tube that is supposed to line up with the large grease cup. Since the torque tube is upside down and the ball joint cap is not your U-joint is not going to get any grease. The ball joint cap needs to be rotated 180 degrees so that the grease cup is down.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 02:43 pm:

No, the A hole is for installing or removing the pin that holds the U-joint on the drive shaft. There's another hole opposite it in the bottom, of course. You see the plug for that one in the second picture. C is the grease fitting for the drive shaft. Originally it was a cup but yours has a modern grease gun fitting. Somebody has installed the housing upside down, with that grease fitting on the bottom. Mister Ford had it on top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 02:52 pm:

Stephen types faster than I do. :-)

Here's the stock grease cup arrangement. My U-joint pin hole has the wrong plug in it. Yours is correct.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 02:55 pm:

That someone is me! Holy smokes! So do I need to take the rear end off and flip it over? I'm guessing this could be the reason for the drag, no?

Yieks. How embarrassing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:01 pm:

Michael, either you can flip the torque tube over or simply turn the ball joint cap. I think I would flip the torque tube to make sure that when you grease the U-joint the grease goes directly onto the U-joint rather than filling up the bottom of the ball.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:11 pm:

I agree on turning the tube over. You can't flip the whole rear end because that would put the spring perches on the bottom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:17 pm:

ok.....so what do I need to do to turn the torque tube over?

am I the first one in history to do this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:29 pm:

Another newbie question here - why can't Michael just remove cap A and pump grease into the cavity from there, then reinstall cap A?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:47 pm:

Grease in from the bottom or top, the cavity needs to be filled. It would not be the first nor the last time this has been done. The only problem, if the grease cup is on the bottom, the hole in the bell may not line up with it. I would pull the cap off as Mark suggested and pump the grease in to be sure.
To see if the two holes lineup, take the grease cup off and look, if they do, you can ether replace it with a Zerk or use the original cup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:49 pm:

I haven't done that (yet) but I'll bet somebody has. To turn it over you'll need to move the rear end back about an inch. Then remove radius rods; remove spool nuts; slide the tube forward an inch; rotate it 180; apply new sealer to the rear of the tube; bolt everything back together. I hope I didn't leave anything out.

Mark, B is for the U-joint and C is for the drive shaft bushing. A is between them. In theory you could fill them both from A, but I'd rather have grease applied directly down in those two places.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 03:57 pm:

A grease cup or a Zerk will not fit A. It's a different thread, for a different purpose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 04:45 pm:

Steve - Your statement " move the rear end back about an inch " has me a little worried. Is that possible without taking the whole rear end off? I'm wondering if I should so so anyway to chase down this persistent drag I'm having.

Is there a gasket on the rear end of the torque tube?
Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 05:00 pm:

It will not hurt anything to have the zerk on the bottom. If you install a Warford transmission you have to have it upside down. I would just leave it like it is. Its a good idea to crawl under the T once in a while anyway. Now you have a reason to inspect the underside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 05:21 pm:

Michael,

There are a bunch of things that could cause binding. When, where and how are noticing it? If its a new motor it could have been set up to tight. The clutch is also an area that will cause binding. Transmission bands to tight will cause it as well. Let us know more and I bet that the forum members can help you find it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 05:43 pm:

Hi Paul,

I started another thread about the drag issue a couple of months ago:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/429799.html?1394680296

I thought I might give it a while and try and run the new engine in. However, I'm still having the same issue after fifty miles or so.. I'm pretty sure the rear end is going to have to come off at some point, but I'm thrilled for any other suggestions.

Here's what I know:

The engine starts and runs fine. I could tell there was excess drag as it had trouble pulling even minor hills.

When I jack up either rear wheel, I feel drag as I rotate the wheels - much more than there should be.

The engine is is fresh rebuild - However, I have all the faith in the world in the builder (Dan Hatch). I'm pretty certain he set the clutch properly.

The bands seem pretty loose to me- I have tightened the brake just a bit to have stopping power, and have tightened the low speed so it will engage.

I have RM brakes. When I remove all brake components - it still binds.

I have a single spindle shim on each rear wheel. When I remove the little bar that locks the wheel onto the spindle, the wheel spins freely.

The drag is throughout the entire rotation of the wheel, but is worse at some points of the rotation.

The grease fitting for the front drive shaft bearing was open until today when I put in a Zerk fitting and gave a few squirts of grease.

I don't see any scraping marks on either the large or small brake drums.

Happy to answer any question that might help chase this down.

Thanks so much!

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 05:51 pm:

While you have the rear end out check your thrust washers and the gear fit, the lash may be too close or the thrust washers may need to be fitted more.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Sunday, April 13, 2014 - 11:42 pm:

I agree with Rick I would pull the rear end, check ring and pinion depth.... If it's to deep it could bind up, to loose your ring and pinion will jump in a hard pull, check spider gears while your back into it, also check the drive shaft spool bearing and axle bearings...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 01:34 am:

Yes, if you don't know for a fact what's in there, you need to open up the rear axle and check everything.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html

If you need to do that job, get the MTFCA axle book. http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html.

While you're at it you can turn the tube right side up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 10:34 am:

Michael -- You should be able to isolate the problem if you pull the rear end. Get some experienced help putting the car safely on jack stands for this if you haven't done that before. As the others said above, if you haven't rebuilt the rear end, this is the time to do that.

With the rear end loose from the tranny, turn the U-joint using a wrench, It should be free to turn easily, without feeling the engagement of each tooth on the ring & pinion gears. If you can feel each tooth, put some more paper gaskets between the rear end housings and the pinion bearing spool and try it again. Try it with the wheels (and axle keys) in place and without them, to determine whether the wheel/brake/backing plate area is the culprit. If everything feels good with the wheels and brakes in place, then you can begin looking elsewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 11:20 am:

Thanks all....,

I'll keep you up to date


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 12:46 pm:

Michael,
Just to be clear, it is normal for the multi-disk clutch in the transmission to drag more then a modern standard transmission clutch. It will never turn completely free like a modern vehicle. Your drag may be completely normal.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 01:29 pm:

Hey Jim, if you read his other thread the drag he has going on is definitely not normal and not ok. I think he really needs to dig into the rear end and figure out what is binding up back there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 03:47 pm:

I'm still dragging too. Had a very rough weekend at work and again today so I'm still dragging.
And the rest of the week isn't looking much better!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, April 14, 2014 - 05:24 pm:

Seth,
Maybe if Michael rotates the drive shaft tube that would be an ideal time to isolate any dragging problem to the rear end or transmission.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 03:49 pm:

Michael Grady:

How many miles have you driven your new motor. Ford used to say that "it takes 500 miles to break a new motor in". It seems more like 1000 miles for me to break a motor in. Also you mentioned that going up hill it does not have much power. A STOCK 20 horse motor will not have any power going up hill. That is what Ruckstells are for. If you do not install an auxillary rear end you will NEVER have any power going up hills

up hill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 04:07 pm:

It would seem that if Michael were to find a small hill, get to the top, then go down the hill, pull the hand brake to find neutral (but not activating the parking brake) that the car should coast freely.

If it still drags, the problem is in the rear end.

If it coasts freely, then the problem is in the engine end.

If the problem is in the engine, then the problem could be as simple as a timing rod not correctly bent, and the timer slightly retarded, causing a loss of power, which will feel as though there is a drag. I've been there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 05:01 pm:

Hi Guys,

The wild card here is my not having a lot of experience in a 'normal', well running model t. I do know the drag as I rotate the rear wheels 'feels' like it's abnormal to my hands/arms.

Dan Hatch is dropping by this weekend and will take a peek for me. If it's in the rear end, and I'm guessing it is, he will help with the rebuild (as I look on). :-)

I'll keep you up to date..

m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 06:30 pm:

Have it ready for Dan to drive, 'cause Dan knows T's. He will know if it is dragging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 08:27 pm:

how will I know if Dan is dragging? :-)


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