overdrive and a big dummy driving......
What I find interesting on this car is the right side of the engine. At first glance, it looks like a distributor, but the more I look at it appears to be some sort of upright magneto??
Also, I like what looks to be an oil pump on the side of the block, but it is not connected on one side. Looks like a basically original 1913 runabout-you don't see many of these.
The ad says it has a two speed rear end, but the photo shows a regular rear end. The shifter looks like it's for an auxiliary transmission instead.
It is a nice looking car, though. So far the price looks OK. It'll be interesting to see what it sells for.
In the pictures, it looks rough. I can imagine how rough it really is in person.
It does not have 1913 wheels. The ones on it are demountable rims.
A lot of things are not correct on that car.
I like it a lot. Appears to be an early accessory magneto and odd oiler setup. Much of the hard to find 1913 parts are in place. It would make a great driver with some mechanical work and some auxiliary brakes.
Just looks like a lot of work to me, especially since it's starting to look like it'll hit the $10K mark. But that's me. At this stage of the game, I'm content to buy 'em as restored as possible, and then just do the "little things"...like an occasional engine rebuild!! (by Joe Bell of course)
That is a Wico JEM magneto.
I thought it looked like a Wico magneto. I've got one on a Model A. I'd like to see the lower part where it mounts to the timing gear cover on this car. I haven't seen a conversion like this on a T before.
The last thing I need is another car, but I just talked to the owner and I'm going to have a look and take some pictures Saturday morning. If you're interested in the car and would like a better picture of something, post it here and I'll try to get a good photo of it.
I agree with Royce. It looks like a decent '13.
Yeah Larry, as hard as it can be to do some days, I agree with Royce. I'd love to have that car. Of course money is always an issue but I like the car! Also please understand, hell would be freezing over before I'd care if my Model T was correct and would cause all the judges to salivate all over themselves when they see it!
Yesterday I drove over to Oxford and took a look. In addition to the items others have mentioned, a couple of glaringly wrong items caught my eye (pinion bearing spool and stepped DS tube), but the car is mostly correct. Admittedly my knowledge of pre-15 T's is limited, but it looked mighty good to me. The seat is original and looks pretty delicate, as you'd expect after 101 years. The car is missing a speedometer, and it needs work and parts to make the lights operable. I didn't think to ask about the Wico magneto. Don said he and his wife have done a lot of local driving in the car, but no long trips. He's selling the car because he's had his fun with it and he's more of a Model A guy. He's had several "buy it now" offers, but will let the auction run out and end however it ends. If I didn't already have too many cars and no space, I'd be bidding.
I didn't see any brand name on the tyres, but they're Aussie. Obviously not new.
The lack of wear on the foot controls might indicate a very low mileage car considering the original upholstery condition. Appears to be a later 3 dip c.c. and not the correct narrow snout so hard to tell about engine mechanical condition.
Glad to see they utilized a later spool and torque tube to install the Warford - early torque tubes with the cast spool flange getting a bit harder to locate - overall a very nice '13 !
I like the double wishbone. Shows common sense by the owner.
Steve- Thanks for the nice photos.
Great pics Steve, anyone thinking about that car, certainly has the good oil on it now... l'd certainly have it if l didn't already have one !!!
Per engine number,.....built May of 1913. Very interesting car, and great photos Steve! Can even read accessory brake manufactures's name,...."Stronghold". Can't say I've ever heard of that one, but neat accessory, and as someone else said, besides the double wishbone, the accessory brake set-up, which looks like it's been there for a long time, shows that, as Ralph said, someone was definitely concerned about safety. Altho' the accessory emer. brake installation does look a bit questionable. Mismatched bolts, useless castle nuts with no cotter pins, cables instead of brake rods, etc. but I'll bet those brakes work though, and cleaned up and properly rebuilt and re-installed in conjunction with a rear end rebuild, I'll bet those brakes would work just fine. I'd sure try to re-use them and I'd also retain the magneto set-up as it obviously works, and is a really neat period accessory. Boy,...If that ol' girl could just talk, huh? Got to wonder who and why and when somebody opted for the magneto? It's not like the car shows any real "speed equipment", right? Your great photos make this thread a real "study" Steve,.....thanks for taking the time to check this car out and share your "findings" with all of us Steve,.......harold
Has a good looking '15 - 19 coil box. Could probably sell it for what it would cost to buy the right one.
Gordon,....one other thing,......you're right about the "demountables", but that was a very common "upgrade" to lots of early brass Model T's. Just think how much easier those flat tires would have been to deal with, especially considering those horrible muddy roads back in the day! To me, "demountables" make the most sense of any of the period "upgrades" and I'd sure keep those right along with the magneto!
I see demountable tires as only a delay in the changing of a clincher tire. Either way I will have to do it.
Those demountables can be sold for about what Stutzmann charges to build a set of proper wheels.
About the brakes
Royce - Not trying to be argumentive here, but I guess I'm talking about why the car might have been fitted with "demountables" way back in the Model T era! You're talking about dealing with a flat clincher nowadays, probably on pavement, and most likely, during good weather on a club tour, or in your shop or driveway. I've never seen anybody deal with a flat clincher tire as easily and efficiently as the way you do it Royce, but I'm talking about those ol' timers that had to do it with most of the bottom half of the wheel/tire buried out of sight in the mud, and the top half of the wheel/tire full of mud and slop and the poor guy's hands and tool also soon to be covered with mud! I guessing that you never tried to deal with a flat clincher tire under those conditions, right?
Every time I change a clincher it is 100 degrees out side. Makes them softer! The exercise is good for me.
Back in the day when you bought a new tire or tube they probably had a "boy" at the tire store who got paid to do nothing except install tires. I can't trust the local tire store to install tires on my modern cars, trailers and trucks most of the time. They find a way to screw it up somehow. No way I would trust them with a T tire and rim.
The demountables get changed the same way as the non - demountables. The cars steer and handle better with the non demountables, probably because they weigh a lot less.
Royce - This thread that David Dare started, and that Steve Jelf added so much to is about the '13 Runabout for sale, and you and I are kind of "cluttering it up" with this discussion we're having,......for that, I apologize guys. But Royce, I just have to respond to something you just said in the first line of your post above:
"Every time I change a clincher it is 100 degrees outside. Makes them softer! The exercise is good for me."
The exercise??? Ha! Excuse me, but I've watched that video of yours several times,....the one with you, comfortably sitting on a stool, fixing a flat tire, and your Dad, comfortably sitting on the running board, probably "needling" you with comments like,...."what's taking you so long?"
The part that just "kills me" is the fact that you make it look so easy, and that the only "EXERCISE" I see you getting is your fingers! I'm sure a big part of that is the 100 degree temperature you speak of that makes the rubber soft, and, probably expands the tire a bit too!
Anyway, again, not to be argumentive Royce, but my whole point was that any early Model "T", even the early brass ones, would never get any criticism from me for having "demountables" on it, because I'm sure that such cars were fitted with demountables because somebody had to fix one or more flat tires out on the road, in wet, rainy, muddy, cold and/or blizzard conditions, maybe more than once, and expensive as demountables were, even back in the day (maybe ESPECIALLY back in the "T" days) and swore that they would NEVER do that again, so they spent the hard earned bucks for demountables so they could deal with the flat clincher easier out on the road, in the mud or whatever, and fix the flat AT HOME, IN NICER WEATHER AND NICER CONDITIONS,......or,......as you say Royce,.......pay to have "the tire boy" down at the tire shop take care of it!
Again, I would never be critical of any Model "T" wearing "demountables", because the demountables just may have been put on that Model "T" sometime during the first few years of it's life! In other words, I think demountables are a very, VERY,...."period correct" accessory!
And now, David and Steve, I promise not to further clutter up this very interesting thread about this very interesting Model "T" any further! And Steve, I think you should quit fool'n around and buy that car (that's so close to home for you) and sell your '15 "bitsey" if you can't justify one additional "T", either storage-wise, or $$$-wise! I'm betting you'll always be glad you did! Again, thanks for the great post David, and thanks for the "follow-up" Steve,.....harold
I agree with what Harold Schwendeman says. People were not stupid in those days about improving their Ts. I think I drag in as many old chasis as any one on this forum and I find as many or more demountable wheels on them as I find nondemountables. It seems like no matter how nice someones T is if it has demountables some one is going to criticize it.
Ralph - Well, I'll be darned! I wanted to mention in my much too "wordy" post above that demountables came out pretty early during the "T" era, but couldn't remember where I'd seen an early ad for them, or how early demountables actually did appear. Your post is exactly what I was thinking of. (The one you posted even kinda' shows that Royce Peterson "finger exercise" I was talking about,...ha,ha.....)
Say I haven't talked to Steve Tomaso since he and Diane got home from Bakersfield, but he wrote something in the forum recently about the fact that you were one of the guys that he enjoyed visiting with at the Bakersfield swap meet. Made a mental note to ask Steve how you're doing. Stay strong Ralph, keep on keep'n on and think "milk shakes",...."SUPERSIZED". I knew a guy years ago that went a long, long time and fooled all the doctors, and milk shakes was one thing that helped him a lot! FWIW,......harold
Thanx Dave,....we were typing at the same time!
what kind of oiler is that on the forward part of the engine in one of Steve's pics?
Hey Ralph, your photo of the Firestone demountable wheels is a bit interesting to me. I've got a set of 21" Firestone demountables with the 5 lugs. I've got the lugs too. What I don't have is the 21" rims, but would like to find a set only because of the uniqueness of having them.
I don't criticize anyone for their choices. If it were my car it would get original wheels because I like the way they look and drive with the lighter wheels.
Perhaps you missed me changing out a worn out tire on the Texas T Party tour last year. Click here and scroll down to post #5 - 9:
9800.00 final price
Well, okay Royce! I'm now convinced about the "excercise! In those pictures, I can almost hear the "grunts" & "groans"! I gotta' admit though, I don't see any tools or tire irons! And by the looks of your shirt, I can see that it was "HOT"! Oh, wait,....that sweat is just from driving as it's only on your back!
final price: $9,800
That is one very very cheap 1913 runabout..
Well done to the buyer, hopefully we'll see it appear here sooner than later.