From number 2500 on, are there features on the 1909 block that are different from 1910 blocks? I once had a mid year 1909 block that had a threaded vertical opening on the left side.
I took few picks of our 09 block, #290X. I'm not sure of differences with later 10 blocks:
If there is a specific thing to compare I'll take a pic and post it,
Sorry for the two "r" s. Auto-correct strikes again...
On some 1910 blocks, but not others, there is a threaded boss on the driver's side about 4 inches up from the bottom rail just below no. 1 cylinder. The block I saw that had this feature was no. 24,XXX. The block on my current 10 is no.27,XXX and doesn't have it.
Could you post Pics?
rob. I would like to talk to you about you 1909 block call me at 417 394 2788.charley
Previous discussion about that "mystery" threaded (or not) boss:
1910 block discussion.
The 1909 - 1911 open valve blocks have some typical characteristics that you should expect to see.
The red arrow is the mold number found on original blocks.
The yellow arrow shows the pattern line found on original blocks.
Watch out, there are probably more reproduction open valve blocks than real ones. The absence of these features means it is not a real one.
This is an original 1910 block. Same features as the 1909 block, and again, this is an original one.
This is an original 1911 open valve block. Again the same typical features. Note the casting line is also present on the driver's side of the block.
All the early blocks I have seen have the big casting number on the passenger side of block as Royce has said, I have seen some really good fakes out of later blocks but a good eye can tell!
It appears the shape of the lifter boss is a big difference between real and faux . It's hard to put iron where there is none.
In about November 1911 (1912 model year) the blocks had another distinctive feature, a hump in the timing gear area indicated by the yellow arrow:
The enclosed valve covers came much earlier in 1911 of course.
In 1913 the timing gear area was completely reworked, as were the pan bolt mounting bosses. Look at this boss on all the original early 1909 - 1912 blocks. This is a distinctive feature of 1913 - 1919 blocks indicated by the yellow arrow:
Great tutorial, Royce. You really have to do the research to keep from getting burned on these early cars.
Great stuff Royce. Interesting that the early closed valve blocks don't have that mould mark down at the bottom bolt line.
Royce, could you run you eye over this and tell us anything? Fellow club member dropped this in my shed for babbitting, restoring a 11 or 12, I'm not sure which, engine # and casting date up at the water inlet and no hump on the cam housing, note that the casting date is up side down. 3-15-12
(Message edited by adminchris on May 13, 2014)
That's a neat variation you find very rarely. It would have used cast aluminum timer.
I don't think that style lasted more than a month. Great pictures, I would love to see more.
My 1910 block has the #1 not a #3 and it has a small circle underneath it.
Royce, some more photo's, as can be seen, this poor old T has seen some action over the years, several welds from throw-en rods, cracks and all the head threads replaced.
(Message edited by adminchris on May 13, 2014)
My engine# 33435 November 1910 also has the pattern line as in the yellow arrow, number "2" mould number just above it as in red arrow but doesn't have the boss on the other side. It does however have the round boss just under the brass valve guides as in Rob Hyen's photo. Unfortunately the casting stampings have long gone.
Alan in Western Australia
The mold patterns had numbers to be able to track defects in castings if one ever happened. Undoubtedly there were multiple sets of patterns with different numbers.
In my opinion, the round boss under the lifter would only be there in a cored pattern. There is no reason to use a cored pattern in that area on a open valve block. That would be a big red flag for me.
Darel also asked about the flat threaded hole on the left side, is that where the oil filler/vent was on the early engines?
Alan! what round boss are you talking about. could we see pixs ? charley
click the link Phil posted above. it discusses the threaded or unthreaded boss in detail.
Tim. you are on the wrong side, Alan is on the tappet side. charley
I've noticed that from the 1906-1908 N-R-S, the Intake Manifold is facing the wrong direction compared to the 1909-1918 T Engine.
(Message edited by adminchris on May 13, 2014)
Pictured are 2 1910's i recently restored.
ENGINE NO. #33162
.......... ..... #29178
Both have the casting of 2 on side below valve area
(Message edited by adminchris on May 13, 2014)
It could be Ford had some plan to have the oil filler / breather on the LH side of the block in 1910 as it had been on the first 2500 Model T's. That might explain the strange boss on the side of some 1910 engine blocks. Or not.
Here is an early closed valve block #40880. The casting mark behind the steering column is '4'. Interesting the mould mark is not down on the bolt holes. It appears the "new" design started to clean up some of the mould lines. Ignore the bead behind the oil cap, it is where the block has been repaired.
ok!!! I have about 12 repo blocks out there. there is one difference no one has talked about yet it is on the outside and large, I have fixed this on my blocks, I put 40 hrs in them and sill not perfect . charley
Charley, totally my opinion, but the problem isn't in what you are doing, as that is how some needy things get restored. The problem rears it's ugly head as a good example in the second posting of this thread. When a "1909" example is shown in answer to a question and it really isn't a 1909. How would that make you feel if you bought the Mona Lisa, only to find out it is really a paint by numbers. Cars are art, and when these counterfeit items work their way from one owner to another, the provenance is lost and so has the value. Now others would argue , what do you do to to get a car back on the road? I don't know . Most everything of this age needs care, and
work, and yes, mechanical parts, too. Some people strive to
only replace things with original things, no matter what year the car is.These people should be rewarded. When it comes to the heart of the car, the engine, I personally don't like to see something called a certain year car , based on the heart of the car, when it obviously isn't. Thank God a perfect counterfeit hasn't been made yet. Another reason I only buy good original cars. Again, my opinion.
Here is a side view of my 1909 engine #2840. It looks correct based on these posts. She certainly runs like one that is 105 yrs old.
here is what all open blocks look that I have seen in person or in pixs. the pixs is from the old form .the boss is not the ensue here look at the surface from the timing cover to the center line of # 1 cyl then up to the main Bearing bolt. then look at a later block .I have made these blocks up for people who could not find real ones or could not afford them or didn't want to wait 10 or 15 yrs for them. what they do with them after they get them I can not control. if you send me a pix of the left side frt of your block I will tell you if it is one of mine. charley
Here are a couple of photos of the left side, showing the boss you are referring too and also the Ford script.
I am running with an Anderson timer on this engine, so I am using a later timer cover. I have the original cover in case I want to rebuild the brass timer that came with the car.
This engine has a narrow pan and the small field coil. When we restored the magneto two months ago, some of the parts were stamped April 1909. The car was built on May 8, 1909.
Unable to send a photo of my engine showing the "round" base just below the bronze guide. It is identical to the very first photo in this post message. Other photos of this area on engines the base not being round but continue on inwards to the cylinder edge.
I wish to thank everyone for posting interesting photos and information. I started this thread to learn more about differences and changes during the 1909 and 1910 model years for the basic block. My engine was cast in mid Feb. of 1910 and assembled on May 7 1910. The next question would be: Are all one piece pans the same?"
mike Hanson's block has past.it is not one of mine!! as near as I can tell it is real. charley
If I read this correctly; from the Tim Morsher post on the 25th @ 2:26PM that Rob's #290X block is not originally an open valve block?
The gentleman who sold our car is a well respected person in the Model T community. He represented the car as an original engine 1909, and I had no reason to believe otherwise. In fact, one of the "officials" who is educating us about correct and incorrect 1909 engines at that time suggested the car I bought was a correct car. Of course it's not that "experts" fault, however I wish their knowledge was offered at that time instead of now. Again, no ones fault but mine (and the seller).
Another gentleman posting on this thread misrepresented a part to me as something it turned out not to be, so "right and wrong" seems to be a moving target in the Model T community for some (certainly not all, but a few).
I bought the car in good faith, and paid appropriately for a 1909. If it's not, then I'm a fool, and we know what happens to fools and their money. Meanwhile, there are others in our group whose intent seems to be to make money at any cost. I guess I'd rather be the fool than the cheat, although the tuition is costly.
Darel, Mark Herdman made a series of postings in 2013 showing the evolution of Model T pans:
According to his research there were at least seven types of one piece pans.
Gosh Rob, you would do the hobby a favor if you would name the scoundrels you mentioned.
Gosh Tim, I didn't think that would be necessary, but if you insist I will.
Often, in days gone by, people repaired open valve Model T blocks using whatever they had on hand. It could be someone welded or brazed a new pan rail and a new timing gear housing to a real 1909 block, and thus Rob's block could have some original parts.
Or it could be a complete fake. It has a lot of red flags for anyone who is even a little aware of what a 1909 - 11 block is supposed to look like. If it was mine I would apply some paint stripper to the area below the valve guides to see if it has been brazed or welded. If not, then it was carefully sculpted from a 1913 - 1919 block.
I don't think you can hardly throw those kind of accusations out there without naming names. I know it can't be me, as I have had exactly 2 dealings with you,ever. I am still waiting for those damaged model N parts you promised to loan me 7 or 8 years ago. .......and, when you were looking for a buffalo carb for your K, I contacted you because I had a buffalo carb, which was larger than one I had sold previously. I thought perhaps it was from a K. I never told you it was. I would have gladly mailed it to you to check out, as I sure didn't know . You never bought it, which was fine with me. Turns out it was the right size for a 1909 ford, and is happily at home on a real one right now. Good thing you didn't buy it and use it on your "09" as you would have experienced an organ rejection. Those are our two dealings. Period.
I have had to block your phone calls and e-mail contacts because of your incessant searching out of K stuff, so don't even think of starting something with me.
If there truly is someone who sold you that car with such a problem, you need to get a lawyer. I have read and learned from this forum for many years now. Didn't you buy another '09 before and claimed someone cheated you on it, or am I dreaming? You need to do better homework, unless you have plenty of money to throw away.
I really didn't think you would choose to go there, but since you have, I will tell my side of this story.
In your defense, you did agree to refund my $2400, after I determined the carburetor you solicited me about was not a Model K carb but a Model T size carburetor.
Following are two email I saved from the time. The first is one in which you say that the carburetors may be different for 1906 and 1907 Ks. As you were aware at the time, I had not picked up our K from the previous owner yet, so I was not able to measure the manifold or existing carb. Remember, I had no experience with Model K Fords at this time, while you, as far as I am aware, helped the late owner of a Model K along with his other alphabet Ford collection cars. I thought of you as a Model K expert, in the sense you knew more about them than most, especially me.
When I received the carb from you, it appeared much too small for a Model K, and more similar to a Model T carburetor in size.
As a result, I posted photographs of the carb on this forum, asking if it appeared to be a Model T sized carb? I did not post your name, nor any information concerning you, only questions about the carburetor that was represented to me, by you, as a probable Model K carb, for $2400. I thought this (MTFCA forum) a perfectly good place to try to determine if this was a Model T carburetor.
I was surprised to receive the email below from you, chewing me out, for using this forum to find out if it was indeed a Model T, or possibly Model K, carburetor. Had you not attacked tonight, this email would have never seen the light of day. However, I will defend my actions on this forum, and now you may choose to defend yours (or not):
It seems when you are trying to influence forum members, as with this thread, you act as "one of us." However, by the tone of your email, it appears your opinion of most MTFCA forum members, at least as of 2012, is not very high.
This is the link to the thread I posted to this forum asking about this carb. In addition to the Late John Berch, many well known and knowledgable early Model T forum members added information. I invite anyone following this mess to read the thread and tell me if you believe the email I received was justified considering how I presented the subject of this carburetor?
The only time I've called you since this sad incident was several months ago, when I left a message on a cell number you had given me, to determine if a part for sale on eBay (in Ohio) was one you were selling. You did not return my call, and the seller finally responded to my questions online, so I knew at that point it wasn't you. My only other encounters with you have been some barbed posts by you on threads I've posted, and on this particular thread.
I'm sure you and a few others will be happy to hear I'm about to leave this forum. It's just no longer fun. I enjoy most of the forum members immensely. The forum has provided me with a wealth of information, and I've met many members in person and have built friendships that will last a lifetime. However, this tit for tat, aggressive, in your face crap is getting ridiculous.
Now it turns out I may have been burned on a car I was really proud of, and it's an opportunity for some to gloat over my misfortune. Not exactly a group of friends on a hobby based forum should expect to treat each other, in my opinion.
Am I right in assuming that my 1910? that does not have a cast number below the valves then it is a fake? It does have the boss on the left side in line with number 1 cylinder and is tapped. Also it does not have white metal on the block side of the main bearings with crankshaft against the block.
If it is a fake it would be interesting to know how it ended up in the very south of the South Island of New Zealand and discovered in the early 60s beside a shearing shed on a farm.
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Paul !your block is not one of mine!!looks good to me. I have seen them with the # and without, the same on the ford name. there are still a few changes I would call std foundry changes that have not been that have been talked about yet .I just don't know what to say about robs ,just so glad it wasn't one of mine, I hope everyone who got one of mine will be up front about it if they ever sell.charley p.s. I am not an expert and don't want to be. I an very open to change
I'm sorry too that Rob has deleted his profile
Rob, Are you going to let a few air bags push you around? I follow your post with great interest as do others. I have three T,s right now and like all the info that this forum provides. I also like all the OT that shows up. I also have other cars and interest and as others have said this place is full of info and answers. Peckerheads will find the door by them selfs. Iam an american and will not let anyone push me around. And with that said I do not push anyone around. Scott
Paul no one would fake the boss on the drivers side and modify the block so the crank runs on cast iron. Of course yours is real.
I don't see anyone on here gloating. Darel asked for help identifying 1909 - 1910 blocks. Many of us posted pictures to answer Darel's question. It appears Rob is surprised to find he has again bought a bogus 1909 engine.
Rob, many of us offered to help you avoid getting screwed on a 1909 Model T after the tragic purchase of your first one. Again, if I can help you avoid this sort of thing or help you in any other way I will. This hobby is not about drama or making anyone feel foolish. It is about history, having fun with old cars, and passing that on to the next generation.
Richard! I could have put the boss on if someone wanted it, what's another 1/2 lb. of lead and $100.00 more. I agree about the crank.by the way my blocks are not cheep $3200.00 for the last one ,and I don't want to do any more, to much work. I would rather be out on my Indian. charley
Paul, no one would fake the boss on the driver's side or change the main saddles so the crank runs on iron rather than babbitt.
Sorry for the double post. It didn't show up at first.
I am glad that some one has taken the time to help some of these early cars out to look correct, but the untrained eye misses some thing in all the excitement. Bill Seiburg years ago had made a few early blocks out of 13 engines, they looked good but now the 13's are getting even harder to come by to make an earlier one, myself I would rather use a later block and run it's wheels off than to ruin an early block. Some day if I get my dream car 12 touring the original engine and rear axle will set in the corner and it will get newer in it to run everywhere.
Great day in Ohio, finally some sunshine. A bit cool, but able to work on the roof of a hack all day, and take in the Indian's game at the same time. Now just in front of the computer to take all this in. Now i thought this was a forum, where ideas and thoughts are brought forth. A place to learn.
I should have taken my dear old Uncle George's advice, from many years ago. He was real Model T mentor of mine. He liked to say, " never wrestle with a pig..... you will both get dirty, but the pig enjoys it" .........Who saves old emails to post like that? Especially private emails with unflattering things in them. Rob sure has a lot more time to waste than i do. There is a lot more to the whole story,and a lot of untrue statements from him, but no one really cares. I sure don't. I will say after 40+ years of fooling around with old cars, dealing with him was one of the very few times i regretted getting involved with someone. I stand by those same 40 years in the hobby with many people that have touched my heart directly. Around these parts, all you have to do is ask around a bit for help, and it is there. It goes both ways, too. I think i have helped quite a few people over the years.
Re/ model T's , if you have them in your heart and soul like i do, you likely will forever. They are not particularly reliable cars, although easy to fix. They take maintenance.They take maintenance. They take maintenance. Most of them leak a little oil, and some drip a little gas. They don't go very fast and probably annoy people driving behind in this fast paced world. If you own one knowing all this, you are a model T person.
If you buy one for the investment potential, or as a status symbol, you likely will be disappointed. People have them for all different reasons. If showing or having them judged is your thing, go for it. If you set it out there as a correct example , be prepared to defend yourself. My personal belief is that a model T ford restored is having a real chore on your hands. First time you lift a hood, or clamp it down , there goes the paint. I rarely go to a car show, as that isn't my thing. If you like car shows, that is fine and dandy.
I have friends for nearly my whole life that i met through model T's. I have a good friend who came to Model T's from the race car hobby. When his brother died unexpectedly, he dug out his Dad's old model T and they both worked on it together. They are truly Model T people, and will likely be forever. There are many , many examples like that around here. They are a great family hobby. A father/son, father/daughter hobby. Soon to be a grandfather/grandaughter hobby for me. Yes, i'm gathering parts for my 9 year old granddaughter right now. My cousin is gathering parts for his newborn grandsons car.
This was a good thread. After all these years, it is fun to learn things about old lizzy i never knew before. I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to admit i learn new things still. The right or wrong with lizzy is part of her lore. I would never point out anything to someone else, or pick apart someone else's car. That is unless they asked. More than likely, i would have to look it up in the many books or encyclopedias out there on the subject. The best thing that ever happened to the hobby is this forum and website. So much knowledge, i am constantly drawn to it. I love to learn new tips and hints, and of course being an accessory lover, seeing accessories i've never seen before.
If i could offer some advice to Rob, it would be, get to know your cars. Take them apart. Fix them. Put them back together. If you want them correct, get the stuff to make them correct. If you don't care, drive them and enjoy them as they are.
Me, i hope to still be behind the wheel of one in 40 years, when the Lord calls me home. Preferably parked somewhere safe at the time, so the kids and grand kids can get it to someone who will enjoy them as much as i have. Perhaps Lizzy will be in their hearts and soul by then, too.
I see lots of hurt feelings here.
Unfortunately, today a lot of us depend on e-mail and text messages instead of picking up the telephone, making a call, and having a direct conversation with someone. I am guilty of it, too.
I am NOT an early car expert. I can only go on what I have learned from other people, and I have learned a lot from other people, even on this particular thread.
I am an Educational Assistant and work in an Elementary School. I love working with kindergartners. We teach them to "share with other people." Here on the forum, we share knowledge. And we teach the kids to "play nicely." Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen here. When the kids don't play nicely they have to take time to think about what they did and then have a discussion with the other person. Often they need to be follow up with an apology.
I really enjoy Rob's posting about the pre-Model T Fords and the discussions than follow, and would hate to see Rob "pack up his toys and go home."
Rob, please stay and play with us.
I won't tell you, Rob, Tim, and Royce to mend your fences. You are big boys now and you can figure it out. If you guys want to have beefs with each other, fine...just keep it off the forum. I have learned different things from each of you, and respect you each in different ways.
I know there are some things wrong with my 1911 Model T, and I'm sure there are some things that I don't know, and I hope that someday someone will politely tell me.
It would be devastating to have someone point fingers at the block on an early car and have it referred to as a "fake." That must really hurt.
What is "fake" ?
Is a Brassworks radiator a fake radiator?
Are Rootlieb fenders fake fenders?
RV Anderson manufactures some magnificent reproduction Heinze coils, coil boxes and switches. Are they fake?
There are numerous parts that are reproduced today (both excellent and poor); Are they fake?
Most of the body on my 1911 touring car is original, but a few of the sheet metal panels were replaced many years ago. It is not a Ray Wells reproduction body, however, Ray did some restoration work on it.
My radiator, hood, front and rear fenders are reproduction. Are they fake?
The engine that is in my 1911 touring is not the original engine that was in the car when the car was new. It was replaced by the first owner with a late model block, but still had the original head, manifolds, hogshead, and transmission. Fifty years later, a previous restorer found a replacement late 1911 engine (from the right casting era) with the distinctive "hump" in the timing gear area that Royce spoke of earlier in this thread. The block was re-stamped with the original serial number which was on the original registration from 1935.
Is my engine a fake? It is not a reproduction. It is not original, but it is "correct" for my car.
There are very few truly "original" cars out there. 99.9% of them have some replaced original parts, or have correct reproduction parts in their places.
Should car judging guidelines deduct points for reproduction parts? I don't think so, as long as the parts are "correct" reproductions.
I do believe that a seller of a car should give an honest assessment of what is original and what is not to the best of the seller's ability. I'm not going to get into ethics here...
Rob, I can't tell you if the block on your car is original, correct, or reproduced or not.
I do know that I will not use the word, "fake."
I've already said more than I was going to say, and if I offended anyone, please accept my sincere apology. My intent was not to upset anyone.
I'll get off my soapbox and now return you to your regularly scheduled forum...
: ^ )
Keith, as a 58 year old kindergartner, if I have offended anyone from any of my posts, I sincerely apologize. I am a plain talker, and often shoot before looking. I have no ill will for anyone, especially Rob. Thanks for your post.
Well thanks for the replies regarding my 1910 block. Was getting a little concerned when no casting number was evident.
Back to the differences between the 09 and 10 blocks. I notice the serial number block is in a higher position, nearer the cam follower rather than near the cam lock screw on my block compared to others shown on this discussion
(Message edited by adminchris on May 13, 2014)
I took a few pictures of the block in my 1910 Touring #23805. It has the boss on the lower left front, but not the mold line just above pan rail.
Here is my 1910 block. The serial number is very close to the Dobbin's 1910. Notice that the serial number embossment is lower down the the Dobbin block.
First of all, thanks Rob for all the information on Pre T - T, Water pump T, T racing and Pre T models. It is appreciated and I will miss your articles on the forum.
Thanks Royce. I have learnt some more about the casting line in the block. didn't know that. I also learn something new about the engine number boss location as well.
I believe the really non water pump early blocks have no ford script and have two casting circles on the lower left side about 1 inch in diameter but less pronounced than the ones on the water jacket. they are located either side of where the ford script normally is.
As for the boss on the cylinders on the left side front. #14529 has the boss, some #13000's didn't have the boss. Some #33000s did and didn't have the boss. So, from my observations the boss goes from 13000 to 33000 approx., obviously with overlap. Some bosses were drilled, tapped and plugged. My #29508 boss is used as an external oil line, done when the car was restored in 1974.
It's sad when a small hand full of people, "You know whom I mean", have to Argue, Contradict,
Counter most of everything some one else has to say. I have known a very few people like this in my life, that would argue with a "Dead Man!" Having posted this , I know that still, for now the 2nd Amendment allows all of us to voice our opinion and that is Great and a vital asset of our Great Country, that I served in our U.S. Military years ago to defend! But don't let them make you fall silent. Just look back at history, unlike the schools today that don't teach history or the past. Sorry Rob , I really miss your research and posting's on early Ford Automobiles. I hope you come back despite the few Nay-Sayers, (Not Quoting V.P. Agnew.). There are more of us intrusted in the History of Early Fords, (1903 to 1927) than you Know. I Fully Expect to be attacked, berated and have my post torn apart into little peaces by those that have a calling to do so. But I will still be a Member of our Hobby, Friends and Model T's and early Ford's for a lifetime.
Some of the early blocks did have the Ford script...at those that came from the mold my block 2840 came from. Please note the position of the script relative to later blocks. Obviously, there is variation in the details of the 1909 blocks.
Maybe each pattern number is slightly different. New improvements went into a new patterns and older used patterns where changed later, if at all, depending on how important the change was.
I know there are 09 and 10 blocks that are real with and without casting dates.
Have never seen one with the numbers like on your Cylinders.