Block Preservation

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Block Preservation
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:03 pm:

I recently acquired a pre-generator block as a spare for my T. It's pretty neat because I don't think it's been run hardly any and there are no numbers that I can make out stamped above the water inlet. I was wondering what the best thing to do for now is in terms of preventing any more rust. Ultimately, I'd like to get it cleaned up and painted on the outside, and then that nifty coating on the inside (I can't remember what it's called but it's red and Clayton has it on the inside of his speedsters engine.) The ultimate goal being to slowly but surely add pieces to it until I have a complete second engine. Anyway, let me know what ya'll think.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:20 pm:

Seth, I think the red paint that you are referring to is Glyptal. It is a paint that makes the metal it is painted on slicker than ice. Oil will not collect and will easily drain to the lowest point. Many drag racers and NASCAR engine builders use it. It will not prtect the metal in water jackets, though. For that, I recommend 'Ceramic Coat' available from Lang's. It seals radiators and block passages with a ceramic coating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:21 pm:

Missed a key. It will not protect the metal in water jackets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:32 pm:

Seth...very cool! Any history with it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

I have reservations about using Glyptal on a T engine internals, Glyptal has heat resistance up to 135c, I can't see it being of any benefit to restrict the heat transfer of the hot oil through the cast iron block, only problems of every thing running hotter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

No moisture no rust


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:18 pm:

Glyptal!! Excellent, I knew I had read it before but couldn't remember what it was called. I definitely want to get it cleaned up and sealed in and out. The only surfaces that shouldn't have anything on them except some oil being the cylinders, valve guides, intake/exhaust, and the deck. Also good info on the water jacket, there's some scale I've gotten out of there and I want to clean it out really well and then coat it.

Michael, I don't have any history with this block, I got it for $325 from a guy on eBay. That included shipping it from NY to NC. I thought that was a pretty good price especially when people are trying to sell similar blocks for crazy high prices.

Kerry, I thought the idea with glyptal wasn't really heat related but to basically give a good coat to the inside of the engine to prevent any rust, but even more than that the oil slides right off of it and is free to go back to bearings and valve guides and whenever, instead of sticking to the walls inside the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

I have been using spray on Electrical varnish for many years. The stuff holds up excellent and Doesn't cause any noticeable heat transfer that I know of.It does keep the inside of an engine and tranny good . The oil runs back down in the pan where it can do you some good. I had one crank break on an engine that had some years on it.The sludge was not there when I redid this engine and it looked like the day I put it in. YMMV


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:43 pm:

Seth, you said it, that's my reservation on using it, 'oil slides right off' so hot oil going down and hot oil being picked right up again, modern applications are fitted with oil coolers, so what has a T got to try and lower the oil temp, heat transfer to metal and air flow on the metal, ie cast block and pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:46 pm:

I should probably keep quiet on this one, but I'll risk criticism and speak up anyway:

I've seen photos of the insides of engine blocks and transmissions coated with Glyptal, and agreed, they are beautiful, and I can see where oil would tend to not stick to metal surfaces thus treated, however, so what if the oil does stick. There's 4 quarts of oil in there! I think it's an example of "over-restoration"! And, what if for some reason, a chunk of that stuff breaks loose and gets into the oil pipe and obstructs oil flow there? I just don't think it's necessary, but, as they say, "if it feels good, do it" I guess. And one other thing, I believe it will negatively effect engine cooling to some degree. Sort of like painting a radiator core. Airflow over the engine from the fan actually is a part of engine cooling, and the Glyptal would also act as an insulator too. To each his own I guess, but I think that at best, it's a waste of time and effort, and at worst, well,.....whatever,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:47 pm:

Kerry,the oil is only going to get so hot,then you are there. I estimate around 250-300 degrees. I know you want to let it cool before digging in the bands,but oil is the lubricant,water is the coolant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 09:58 pm:

Jack,
Your missing the point of cooler oil, no doubt you have seen oil pressure on later engines, high when cold and drops right off when hot, and believe it or not splash systems have oil pressure.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 10:42 pm:

This is becoming a 50/50 point of view,so I will bow out. (No sense arguing.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 11:59 pm:

Jack, I think I have the answer to the question. Australia is in the southern hemisphere, thus oil naturally runs to the top of engines that are 'upside' down from engines in the northern hemisphere. With all that oil in the top of their engines, no wonder why they claim treating with Glyptal will cause heating problems.

If this isn't the answer, then I guess I'd better start putting the word out to the NHRA and NASCAR engine builders that their engines treated with Glyptal are doomed to failure!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 12:30 am:

All those engines Terry, have oil pumps and coolers, that is a completely different concept to cooling oil than that of a veteran or vintage engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 01:14 am:

Well Kerry, The engine I'm building presently has a drilled EE crank and pressure oiling via an external Nissan B-210 oil pump/filter setup; new production rods with bearing inserts; full pressure to each main cap; and 4 valve Rajo head, so I don't see any problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 09:31 am:

I retired from Hydro Power after thirty five years and all nine plants each were over fifty years old and older. Glyptal was used in all oil tanks, pipes, accumulator tanks, governor oil tanks and etc. Anywhere oil was Glyptal was. It made the metal surface slicker and smoother so oil would move without drag. Every eighteen months it was time to clean the systems so when depressurized most all impurities and sludge would slide off the walls and settle in the bottom and easily wiped out. This clean oil is very important in a governor system where even the smallest amount of lint from a rag can cause havoc. We even used lint free rags when cleaning. So I used it in my engine, tranny, and inside the Ruckstall housing. Maybe an overkill but what the heck, I've used it most all my life...It has worked great for me... Chet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 09:46 am:

Any of you guys ever mess with the old VW Beetle? They used to sell slightly heavier finned valve covers that were touted as something that would increase cooling. Well it was checked out and found that a thin layer of cooled oil would cling to the inside of the cover and actually prevent heat transfer. The covers, in reality, increased oil temp by preventing heat transfer. The original sheet metal covers heated up enough to prevent this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:21 am:

I had great success coating my block, pan and various other internal parts on my engine in 2010. The instructions on the Glyptal can said in order that the coating be properly cured, it should be baked at 250 degrees for 2 hours and 15 minutes. The parts were too big for an old working oven I used so I made an insulated box to fit over the opening to seal in the heat so as to bake on the finish. It worked great and the glyptal finish could not be better. Many don't think baking is necessary, but I figure the manufacturers of Glyptal would not have wasted the time and research to print this step on the directions if it was not essential to the success of the application. Better to be safe than sorry. Jim Patrick

www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/151534.html
www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152476.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:44 am:

I've had Glyptal coating in my Fordor engine for the past 25+ years. It's all still intact, I haven't removed any shims in 25,000 miles, if it got 15 degrees hotter than it should,I haven't noticed it. Would I have the same experience without Glyptal? Probably.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:47 am:

Might also add, one of the touted benefits of Glyptal is also that it encapsulates any sand, (from sandblasting), or other contaminants that may be hanging around in the crankcase. This is probably more of a benefit in newly cast & machined blocks, but still, it's a claimed benefit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:49 am:

Aside from the fact that Glyptal protects the metal from rust, another good thing about Glyptal is that it brightens the inside of the engine and reflects the available light making things much easier to see when working inside the engine. That alone makes it worth it to me. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:50 am:

Before we lose sight of the purpose - one of the main reasons I want to coat the inside with Glyptal is because I don't know how long this block will just sit and not be used. I'd ultimately like to buy the difference parts for it to make it ready-to-go engine and trans, but that will take quite a while.

Also, what should I do RIGHT NOW to stop any further rust? I'm not really ready to take it to a T engine shop and have them clean/prep it. I just want to make sure it doesn't get worse until I can afford to do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 10:50 am:

Kerry, I thought it was very interesting that Hydromatic action has been proven to create 600 psi in a plain bearing as your post shows.

Chester, I am curious were the bearings in the power plants plain bearings with bronze bushings?
If they were plain bearings were they lapped for fit with a lapping compound?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Drew Wommack - Dallas, TX on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 11:50 am:

Seth,

This is a product that I have used for years for the purpose of protecting engine parts, namely cylinder walls, crank journals, camshafts, etc. while in storage. It is similar to cosmoline but it sprays on thin and is easily removed with kerosene.

http://www.grainger.com/product/SPRAYON-PDRP-Waxy-Film-Lube-6KDT2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 01:04 pm:

The traditional way that machine shops use to clean cast iron engine blocks of grease oil and rust is to immerse it in a hot tank for several hours, allowing a caustic solution to circulate all through the block for several hours. When it comes out it will be as clean as a new penny. You should have this done to the head and block, prior to spraying with Glyptal. If you do, the Glyptal will protect your engine forever. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 01:08 pm:

Seth,

Just brush the block lightly with some motor oil until you can get to working on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 01:24 pm:

Seth, I might be wrong and it may be of little significance but I think there were numbers on the pad above the water inlet on the block. I'd say I see what appears to be a "2" and possibly the top of another number next to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 02:26 pm:

Paul,
In Power Plants we had all kinds of bearings. Our Upper guide bearings consisted of 8 segments 9"x12" each, our lower guide bearings were 24 segments 9"x18"each , and the Thurst bearings consisted of 12 segments 24 3/4" each, and Turbine guide bearing is in two sections. All of these bearings as you can see were huge bearings and all was poured 1/2" thick Babbitt. Our oil shafts that went up to the Kaplan had stainless steel sleeves that ran in bronze bushings.
Now if we had hot spots develop in a bearing we would coat it and lap or even shave it with special tools. But you would always research the problem before the repair....When the first power house was built, the Huge thrust bearing was made of wood...I believe it was ebony (I Think) but if you research one is still operating today with wood thrust bearings....This is a little off the model T but that's where I gained my knowledge about babbit....
Sorry for rambling....
Chet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 03:02 pm:

Thanks Chester, My long time machinist friend is used as an oiler at the Red Dog mine in Alaska. He can recognize plant issues that cost many thousands for a short plant shutdown. They operate in grit and run day and night for months and years. Another Machinist friend worked on lapping power plant generator bearing in Minnesota.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 - 05:31 pm:

Paul,
I went from construction at Hartsville Nuclear Power Plant to the Corps of Engineers Hydro Power Plant as a mechanic then later to a Senior Mechanic. I eventually cross trained to a Power Plant Senior Operator. After seven years of swing shift I went to Iraq for a year with the 3/1 H.S. Marines from May 2005 till April 2006. After returning home I took the Nashville District Hydro Training Instructor position until retirement this Jan. It was a good ride but sure enjoy staying home for now. May change my mind later who knows...
Chet


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