13 doors

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 13 doors
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By fred bear111 on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 07:00 pm:

I drug out an early 13 t that someone was gathering up parts for over 30 years ago. the back doors don't look right. when did the doors change and what will fit a 13 t. car is restorable but I am getting too old. I have done several in the past but now I am 75 and tired.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 07:59 pm:

Without going to the book, the body would/should have changed to the 14 style round corners in about Oct of 13. Could be a late 13 with 14 body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

Fred,

Welcome to the forum. The 1913 tourings were only made approximately Sept 1912 to Aug 1913 ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1913.htm Due to the unique door shape that went all the way down to the bottom of the body, and the way the lower wooden sill was made, most of the touring bodies tended to sag when weight was put in the rear seat area (Beaudett bodies did not have that problem).

The rear doors only fit the 1913s. Unlike the 1915-1925 rear doors that were all interchangeable the doors for 1913 only fit the 1913 bodies.

Below shows a typical 1913 touring rear door. This one is actually a Canadian body taken in front of the Geelong Library in Australia -- but most of the other photos just showed a black side of a car. And it looks the same.



Below is from the Nov - Dec 1967 "Vintage Ford" used by permission and shows the door open and how far the door goes past the sill.





The photos below are from page 26 of the Jan – Feb 1988 “Vintage Ford” and show the reinforcement brackets that Ford Motor Company had the dealers install for free to help correct the sagging rear section of the 1913 cars. Note the door opening goes much further down than the 1914-1925 cars.





If your doors do not look similar to that with the square shape at the bottom they are most likely not the 1913 doors. Of course you could have 1913 doors and a different year body.

To help determine what style body, please take a look at the photos at: http://www.mtfca.com/gallery/index.htm and let us know which ones look closest to your body. Or better yet post some photos [they have to be about 195kb or less in size]. If that doesn't work for you, you could e-mail me a couple of photos and I will try to post them for you. If you click on my name at the beginning of this post, it brings up my profile. My e-mail is the third line down.

Again, welcome to the forum.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 09:30 pm:

My rebuilt 13 ( skeleton ) same structural dimensions as per original, after 12 months of usage is now showing the same as original faults, rear doors open occasionally when on uneven ground, my kids just pull the door shut and we continue - admittedly, l was made aware of this just a week ago ...
Have yet to see any rear body drooping.
news travels slowly sometimes..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By fred bear111 on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

ok thanks everybody. its dark and raining now so will take a close look tomorrow. the fenders are early 13 frame has tapered springs will check body tomorrow. thanks again fred


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By fred bear111 on Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 06:35 pm:

the body is not an early 13. has the rounded doors. the fenders are late 13 I did those wrong. I have the frame body seat springs wire wheels very nice radiator new hood moter is sept 1923 has a ruxel overload coils on front steering colum no wheel. what should I do part it out or sell it like it is and what kind of value to put on it. the body seems real solid no weak spots windshield is very good. fenders are perfect. thanks again guys for the info. fred


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 09:15 pm:

Fred,

It would be very difficult to help you establish a value for the T when we have not seen it or any photos of it. And yes, I understand that photos cannot truly represent the car. The photos normally look better or even worse than the car does in person. But they would help us get a better feel for what is there.

For example I am assuming that the car has a wooden cherry dash board and is a 1914 style body. But that is just an assumption based on your original posting that you thought it was an early 1913. The 1914 Model Ts are nice cars. Do you know if it started life as a 1914? I.e. your comment “…someone was gathering up parts for over 30 years ago…” could mean he found a nice 1914 that was missing some parts and he had been collecting the correct 1914 parts. Or that he had been collecting the correct parts for a 1914. Or it could also mean he was collecting Model T parts and sort of planning to put them together as a Model T without a lot regard for which year the parts went with.

And are the parts assemble into a car or are they dissembled?

I have a 1918 touring called “donor.” It was rear ended and I purchased it for parts. It is all in pieces in several different locations. I also have a 1918 that appears to be a nice solid mostly original car. Put gas in it, get a tag, insurance for driving and it will start up and drives nice (spokes are loose -- so it is not currently being driven). One of them is worth more than the other. They are both 1918 cars, but their condition makes their value very different.

Someone could fairly easily graft the back of a 1922-25 touring onto a 1914-1920 touring. It will function quite well. I.e. three adults can sit in the back etc. Most non-Model T folks will not notice the difference. But the molding, arm rest, top rest, 5 piece vs 3 piece rear section etc. would be noticeable to someone familiar with the cars. Do you know what style rear seat tub your body has? Also the condition of the engine and transmission make a big difference. Is the engine running well? Does it have lots of shims left in the rods and main bearings indicating it is low mileage since the rebuild or original babbitt was poured? Or have all the shims been removed already?

If you take a look at the Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html it will give you some tips for where to look for the body number and body letter on the 1914-1921 tourings. If you body has a number, some of the numbers contain a date code – i.e. the year and month the body was produced and a letter to indicate which body maker produced the body for Ford.

To help you get a feel for the “high retail” [Mark has to pay for the lights, insurance, etc. and still make enough left over to pay himself etc] please see http://www.modelthaven.com/cars1.html . He currently has a 1914 roadster listed under his cars for sale at Model T Haven. Those same type of photos would be helpful for us to help you establish a reasonable price for your T or T parts. Note it has the correct 1914 rear axle, door latches, etc.

You mentioned wire wheels, but are they 1926-27 Model T Ford wire spoked wheels with the 5 in bolt pattern, the 1928 AR wheels for the early 1928 Model A Fords, the 1928-29 or 1930-31 Model A wire spoke wheels? Or are they some of the accessory wire wheels sold for the Model T? Or some other type of wire wheel? The accessory wire wheels (and hubs, hub caps, rims) are worth quite a bit more than the Model T wire spoked rims provided by Ford.

For a ball park figure of what the cars are worth please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/142749.html . While dated, Thomas Stinson reposted the posting below by David Grant:

(Originally posted in 2003 by David Grant Stewart)

Model T Price List

Ignoring the impossibility of such a request, I submit my observations in the hope that they may provide some orientation to some uninitiated soul who would like some
guidance without having to become an expert.

Model T Values - Thumbnail sketch, in United States 48 contiguous states as of Monday 10 March 2003:

Cars and original depot hacks and pie wagons 1917-27:
Parts car only, not restorable: <$1000 (Steve Braymen)
Not complete, restorable with a lot of work, engine may or may not run: $1,000 (Steve Braymen)
Mostly complete, correct, disassembled, restorable: $2,000.
Mostly complete, correct, recently assembled, restorable: $2,500.
Complete, correct, never disassembled, restorable: $3,500.
Runs, drives, correct, needs total restoration $4,500 (Steve Braymen)
Runs and drives, mostly correct, looks like a 10 year old used car: $6,000.
Everything works, not correct (wrong year engine, etc.), looks decent: $6,000.
Everything works, almost all correct, looks decent: $7,500.
Show room condition, correct, needs nothing functionally or cosmetically: $10,000.
Completely "restored" but with incorrect "upgrades" such as pre-1919 starter, incorrect accessories, etc.: $10,000 but buyers will be a different group than previous item.
Rip van Wrinkle: Car stored inside since new, less than 1000 miles: $20,000.
Complete factory type restoration, every nut and bolt reconditioned, completely correct: Ought to be worth $20,000, but the market will not pay much more than $12,000.

Trucks other than original pie wagons: Deduct 50%.
Depot hacks, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%.
Speedsters, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%.
Town cars with original bodies: Add 100%.
Pre-1917: Add $1000 for each year down to 1909.

Body only: 60% of the value of the car.
Chassis only: 40% of the value of the car.

Generally, cars needing total restoration are overpriced because they are a liability, not an asset, and the cost of restoring them far exceeds their finished value. Unfair,
but true. Generally, cars restored with thousands of hours of expert work are under-priced, but no one will pay their true value. Unfair, but true.

If you want to make money restoring cars, the best way to do it is to buy a car that is complete, original, basically sound, but does not run. Spend 50 hours and $500 on it
fixing only what is broken and give it a nice paint job so that when you're done it runs, everything works, and it looks decent, and advertise it for twice what you paid
for it.

If you want to do it right [partial translation: take everything completely apart], forget about making money. Subsidize it with your regular job. Buy a good working car
to enjoy until you get this one done. It will take longer than you thought. It will cost more than you thought.

It is impossible to restore any part without complete dismantling. You never know what you have until you take it apart.

Caution: For any car that has been "restored" request a photographic record of each stage, and information on the experience, background, and motivation of the restorer.
The word means ten different things to ten different people.

David Grant Stewart, Sr
Evergreen, Colorado

Related please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/16385.html

I hope that give you something to go on. And if you have time to post some photos or let someone who is familiar with Ts come over and look at the car (or parts) they could give you a much better range of the value.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, April 26, 2014 - 10:54 pm:

The 1914 model year began on August 1, 1913. Often people who own old cars like to change the title to an earlier year to satisfy their ego. It doesn't change the fact that if the car looks like this it is a 1914:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By fred bear111 on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 04:22 pm:

bulls eye that is my car!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ok now I know what I have. thank all of you for the info. it has been very helpful. the wheels I have are 26 27 t wires not A wheels. fred


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