1923? or is it a '25???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1923? or is it a '25???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 05:23 pm:

Although I've been told "one has to be over 50 miles away from home before they can be called an expert", I'm trying to tap in to some expert brain power and knowledge I know is out there. I've purchased from out-of-state what was believed to be a '23 coupe with a '25 engine. The seller did not have a title, but obtained a replacement title (for a '23 with a '25 engine). After having it shipped here & researching traits of a '23 vs. '25, I believe I've actually bought a '25! What I previously observed and am seeing: (1) Front-hinged doors - not 'suicide' doors; (2) Integral trunk area (i.e. 'one piece') with the coupe body, rather than it being able to be removed separately. The body does have the two-piece windshield. Serial stampings have thus far been unable to be located. I'm Ok with it as a '25 if that is what it is.... Just trying to be factual. Can anyone help in my confusion?
Sorry, am unable to post a photo which is "too large".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 05:35 pm:

Pictures please


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 06:06 pm:

Marvin,

If it is an original Ford coupe body and has not been extensively modified, the doors for the 1918-1923 model year coupes were hinged at the rear (suicide doors).

The 1924-1927 model year coupes had the doors hinged at the front.

The 1924-25 model year coupes had the two piece windshield.

Based on your description so far, it is likely that you have a 1924-1925 model year coupe. Some were sold as early as Aug 1923 [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm ] so they could have been registered as a 1923 in some states but they had the 1924 model year style body with the doors hinged at the front and opening from the rear.

If the owner knows the engine was replaced – that is good to know. But in 1925 that style coupe was sold until the 1926 model year coupes were introduced [and of course there would have been some overlap when both models were on the dealer’s lot].

Please see the photos for 1924-25 coupes and 1926-27 coupes on the photo album page at: http://www.mtfca.com/gallery/models/coupe.htm and let us know which model year body you have.

Note the 1924-25 coupe bodies can be identified by some features that Dave S. has been tracking. Once you let us know which model year body you have – we can give you some additional information etc. Note if you click on my name, my e-mail is the third line down and you can send me a couple of photos and I will try to resize and post them for you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 06:08 pm:

If it doesn't have suicide doors, it's not a 23. It's either a 24 or a 25 Model year. The 24 Model year started in August of 1923 which seems to cause a lot of confusion. Add to that that sometimes cars were titled in the year they were sold means that a 1924 Model year car, built and sold in late 1923 calendar year could have originally been titled as a 1923.

The first thing to look for would be to see if the doors are all steel or if they are wood framed. If they are all steel, then it is a 1925 Model Year. If they are wood framed, then it most likely is a 1924 Model year.

If it has wood framed doors, the next thing to look for is in the trunk where the rear body bolts go into the rear cross member. If there is a dish in the floor pan which the bracket sits in, then it was built sometime between January and October 1924. If there is just a notch in the floor pan to clear the bracket and a hole to access the bolt, then it was built between August and December 1923.

If there is a body serial number it would be located either embossed into the passenger's side floor board riser (the metal piece which holds up the floor boards), or stamped into the top of the wood sill on either the right or left side between the door rocker and the floor board opening.

There are other details to look at to further narrow down the date once we know in which general time frame we are in.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 06:25 pm:

Konrad sent me one picture, here it is resized.

This photo is where body, fender, and splash apron meet behind the passenger door.

pic01


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 06:48 pm:

You guys are more than kind!!! From what's been said, it sounds to me that it may be a '25, due to steel-framed doors. Couple that with the fact there is a '25 engine leads me to believe that is the case, definitely not '26 or '27. The body framings for the doors are made of wood. The trunk floor pan does have the dish for the mounting brackets to the rear crossmember.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 06:50 pm:

I've sent a few more photos, if that helps. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 07:06 pm:

Here are three more photos from Marvin:

pic02

pic03

pic04


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 07:13 pm:

Definitely a 1925. Can you send a photo of the roof rail above the door? Something looks odd about that piece.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 07:47 pm:

Thank you again for re-sizing the photos. Much appreciated!!
The roof rail above the door opening is wood, and is sound. I've already done some extensive work on the roof and windshield & it's front header. Initially, I was told that there had been a 'frame down restoration' in the 1980's, body set back on, and then stored inside since then. With my disassembly, I believe it may not have been any more than a can or two of spray paint underneath... I do believe the 'stored inside' part. Whether the engine was changed or not?? Perhaps prior to the guy I bought it from.. It is definitely a '25 engine, and it does run. The radiator (5 tubes thick) & hood measure as 'high', but the hood has the older style louvers. I've double-checked those sill plates & riser panels and find them void of any stampings. David says that the 'dish' for the trunk mounting brackets would be indicative of a Jan.-Oct. of 1924 manufacture. Thanks, guys!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 08:30 pm:

Marvin, if interested some time I have two sets of steel doors one set has all the regulaters and the other set are near perfect western doors with some BB dents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 08:43 pm:

The metal framed doors make it a 25 for sure. The car seems to be pretty much original. Hope you still have the door handles as the original style are hard to find.
Looking at the pic that shows the dash there must have been a speedometer or something similar mounted in the car years ago. Its been cut out for some reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 09:52 pm:

Thank you for your help. It is greatly appreciated. From what David S. has identified, a Jan.-Oct. 1924 manufacture is likely. The '25 engine must have arrived some time later. That dash cutting - I don't know the cause, but it will be replaced. Thanks, Guys!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 10:24 pm:

No. What I said was if it had wooden framed doors to look to see if it had that dish. If it had wooden framed doors it had to be made before Oct. 1924. They changed to that dish in Jan 1924. So if it had wooden framed doors and that dish it had to be made between Jan and Oct 1924.

Since your car has the all steel doors, it is a 1925 model year and had to be made after October 1924. All of the 1925 model year coupes had that dish.

The top wood over the door doesn't look right. It looks like it is to thick over the door, and the bottom edge steps up where it meets the quarter windows. It could just be the way the photo was taken.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 10:35 pm:

It's hard to tell from just a picture, without measuring, but that looks like a high radiator. That's another feature that means 1924 or later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Sunday, April 27, 2014 - 11:27 pm:

It also has 21 inch wheels, a feature available on 1925 models, along with the 21 inch tire carrier. I would suspect that it has the 2 rivet patent plate on the firewall and the hand brake quadrant is riveted to the frame with only 2 rivets, rather than 4. These are more of the 1925 features.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 12:54 am:

-David, Steve & Jim-
Thanks to all of you. The doors and hinges themselves are all steel; hinges are mounted into wood at the body. The door striker/latch is steel mounted in wood. That top piece above the door is as pictured.. Had planned to add drip rails.. Hope that helps things. I also checked the hand brake which has 2 rivets total fastening to the frame. There is no patent plate on the firewall. So, now my problem becomes one of getting the title to accurately identify it as a 1925. (I've got a bill-of-sale and an out-of-state title saying it's a '23.) The engine number is definitely a '25 though. Time to call for a police inspection to correct it??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 01:08 am:

Marvin,
Depending on your state, some things should just be left alone! The title year doesn't really affect anything does it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 01:21 am:

Other than California's emission testing, Wisconsin is 'just about' as zealous... Should I just 'leave well enough alone'?? My thought is to eliminate any future inheritance problem for my grandson. Identifying a problem is half-way there to solving it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 02:52 am:

Marvin, talk to some people in your area that have had experience dealing with your state's DMV. Ask questions before you present your case to them, it may save some problems. Many times, there is a big difference between offices. As I have said many times when dealing with any government, either state or federal, there are two types of employees, those that are there to help you, and those that are there for a paycheck. The latter usually aren't much help. Laws often change without warning also. If you do find an office that is helpful, share it with others. Good luck. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 03:21 am:

By the way, that looks like a very nice coupe. I also have a '25 coupe that is pretty much original. It had a farmer paint job, interior kit, and a top replacement in the early sixties. It still has eighty year old grease and the remains of original paint underneath it. Dave Sosnoski has been very helpful in determining just exactly what year it is, it was titled as a '24. It has a KC preface body number, and I live about an hour north of Kansas City, so I don't think it has ever been too far from it's birthplace. I have found out that there are a few items that are specific to each year, one being the upper windshield pulls. The '24 had a seprate pull and seprate a retainer for the upper windshield glass, on the'25, they were combined into one unit. Also, the window cranks for the wood framed doors are different than the ones for the steel doors. These are one year only items,and are kind of hard to find, there are some other differences that Dave has mentioned. By the way, if anyone is interested, I have some very nice '24 window cranks(no retainer screws, sorry) that I would like to trade for some correct '25 cranks. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Holcomb, Watertown WI on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 07:10 am:

Marvin, I have a '24, and a guy in the next town south has a '25. There is a '24 in Plainfield. If you need questions answered or anything else, pm me and I'll see if I can help. They don't inspect anymore, my car has a 27 engine with a 24 title, I just took the title in and they never asked, just gave me a new title. If you're concerned about the inheritance problem, just add his name to the title. Or, put it in his name with you as a lien holder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 09:28 am:

Marvin I have a very late Sept. 24 Coupe that I inherited over 50 years ago from my Grandfather.
When I restored it a few years ago I found out along the way my car was a transition car that has 25 changes on it also.
I quit worrying about trying to make it a 'Pure' 24 or 25 because the car was built that way.

The Title says its a 24 but it has enough 25 changes to make it a 25 also.

My Grandfather always called it his 24 so I do the same thing.

My car is a good example that you cant make a PURE model year T. Its just built from the factory that way!

The pureist's out there may disagree with that but I have to say that's the way Ford built it.

When I finally realized that I quit worrying about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marvin Konrad on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 10:29 am:

Thanks, guys! Without finding any of those stamping numbers or a patent plate, the outward evidence is 'calling it a 1925'. We can say that "That cow is a horse!".... Yet, we can all see what is obvious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, April 28, 2014 - 10:42 am:

The photo showing the rh fender indicates it is a '25 too. If the patent plate is missing, there still should only be two holes in the firewall for it.


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