Photo property of the Henry Ford.
Nice picture Royce! Nice car too. A '12? I love the way the M-I-Law seat is far enough back so the son-in-law doesn't have to hear her!!! LOL...and oh yeh, lots of leg room too!
Did Studebaker demolish all those outbuildings when they bought the plant from Ford, or did that happen later?
Check the reflections in the hood, body and M-I-Law. Almost like a mirror. Tell me what you think you see.
Royce tipped us off on the year. Beautiful picture Royce, but are there '10 features that tell us 1910 versus 1909?
Ken in Texas
The stamped steel running boards and Brown #85 cowl lamps make it a mid - late 1910 or perhaps even an early 1911. Since it looks like Piquette instead of Highland Park I bet it's a 1910.
Is there a face in the paint on the drivers seat
To me the side lights look as if they are 1910 model 60 Browns and the tail light a Brown model 75.
The latching top is what was used on early to mid 1909 model year. I have not seen it used on 1910s. The Brown lights that I mentioned were used on some 1909 model year Ts. Early 1909s used three tier E&Js. Later ones often used two tier E&Js.
The Piquette plant was used for 1909s. The Model T was developed at this plant.1910s were built in the Highland plant and others.
Royce – great photo thank you for posting it!
Darel, Royce and others,
One of the fun things about our cars is there is always more to discover. From Trent Boggess’s article “Birthplace of the Model T -- The Piquette Avenue Plant” on page 15 of the Nov-Dec 1998 “Vintage Ford” Trent stated, “By the end of 1909 the new factory was ready and production was transferred from Piquette to Highland Park in January 1910.”
So at least some 1910 model year cars and probably even a few 1910 calendar year cars would have been produced at Piquette. That is based on Bruce’s approximate 1910 model year of: August 1, 1909 to November 1910 at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1910.htm . We ran into that when we were trying to include all the models produced at both the Mac Avenue Plant and the Piquette Plant in the Early Ford Registry. Prior to looking it up then, I didn’t really know that some of the 1910 model year cars had been produced at the Piquette Plant.
I agree with you that the photo posted by Royce has the John Brown #60 side lamps rather than the #85. Below is a cropped and expanded photo of the side lamp on the car that Royce posted.
Above is a photo of a John Brown #60 side lamp (from page 58 from “Here to Obscurity” available from the vendors. I looked briefly but I did not find as nice a JB #60 photo as that one. I suspect there is one in the “Vintage Ford” magazine but I needed to stop looking. Note how the glass in both of the lamps looks more like a rectangle than a square. Another angle of the JB # 60 is shown in Bruce’s online Encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sl3.htm compared to the more square looking JB #85 shown at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sl4.htm The top page is http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#lamps for the lamps.
Note Bruce under lamps has the John Brown #60 listed for both 1909 and 1910 model year use. But the MTFCI Judging Guidelines do not list the John Brown #60 until the 1910 model year (compare line number 190 for both 1909 and 1910). And on page 20 of Gail Rodda’s “Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide” he also has the John Brown #60 listed as 1910 and not as 1909.
Royce, sometimes the Ford photos will have a date in the lower right hand corner. If there is a date on that photo, that could shed some additional information on the date of the car. Additionally if you can tell from the photo if the car has the ribbed pattern running length wise (1909) or the dashed pattern running length wise (1910) that could help date the car.
And the coil box could probably be ID’d and that might or might not help. But it is getting late so I will stop here for the night. Again, great photo!
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A usage of that picture and a description can be found on page 49 of Floyd Clymers book, Henry's Wonderful Model T. There it is described as a 1909 Model. Interestingly the car from the same picture is used in the book cover overlay without the background.
I agree with the 1909 dating. Hap's close up shows detail of the distinctive Jacobson Brandow coilbox switch. The taillight shows the style with the small jewel on the panel facing the left of the car rather than having a full coloured lens. My understanding is this is a feature of 1909 style cars equipped with lamps. Nice to see the detail of the original picture.
I posted the full sized image on the other forum. No way to post full size images on this forum unfortunately!
Is it possible the hand brake lever is brass plated?
Royce.my tape says the pix is bigger on this post??????? charley
The handbrake lever and the starting crank were brass plated on early T's Larry.
Thank you for the expanded views and the link to the higher resolution photo on the MTFCI site, it provides additional details. If you have a higher resolution copy than what was posted, when you have a chance would you please post or send me a copy of the area showing the coil box,
I’m showing the posting on the MTFCI site was about 265 kb when I down loaded it (too large for the MTFCA site) and the one on the MTFCA site was about 162 kb. It provides additional detail that my old eyes cannot make out on the lower resolution photo. Note both of those on my computer gave the option to save as a bit map or JPEG with the bmp a lot larger file but still from the original photo.
From Bruce’s “Model T Ford” pages 481-483 where he listed approximately every 50 or so car.
Note Roadster #2902 was manufactured May 11, 1909 and was painted Green and had E&J lamps.
Roadster 3019 was manufactured May 13, 1909 and was painted Black [yes, black was listed]
Roadster 3131 was manufactured May 14, 1909 painted Green – Henry Ford’s personal car.
Roadster 3916 was manufactured May 28, 1909 painted Green
Lots of Greens and Gray roadster followed with the last Gray roadster listed on page 483 of Bruce’s book as 5450 manufactured Jun 23, 1909.
What does that tell us? That it is more likely that the dark colored roadster was produced after Jun 23 but note that Green was listed starting with the 2902, the May 11 car and the 1910 Model Year did not start until Aug 1909.
I think the photo shows the dashed running board. But a higher resolution photo of that area would confirm that beyond any chance of seeing it wrong. But when were those introduced? Typical 1910 yes. But how long of an overlap were the old style and new style running boards used? And yes, Ford did tend to use up older parts. For example on page 497 of Bruce’s book under the Jun 1911 the invoices listed several cars were equipped with the 1910 style running boards.
Note if you look closely you can see that the crank appears to be painted dark and does not appear to be brass plated. The MTFIC Judging Guide would call the brass plated typical for 1909 and the painted typical for 1910.
There was an excellent discussion of what was brass plated when a photo was posted of a straight axle 1909-10ish or so photo in the Piquette Plant. If anyone has the link to that posting – please let us know. I looked but I did not locate it although I’m sure I filed it somewhere on my computer. Or it may have been in one of the national magazines.
I suspect the car is an extremely late production 1909 or a 1910. But not a late 1910 as it appears the radiator filler neck is still the low style. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rad where it says, “About mid-year, 1910, a number of modifications were made, including a higher filler neck and the addition of the support bar across the lower part of the radiator core.”
Lots of additional information to gather. Again thanks to everyone for their help and inputs.
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hap! I guess I have got a rubber tape when I tape the wheel base on mtfci I get 8 1/8" mtfca 9 1/8"!!!!I guess I will get some new glasses tomorrow .charley
You are correct that the photo on the MTFCA displays a little smaller than the photo displays on the MTFCI site. But if you have a Microsoft Windows type operating system and you hold down the control key and role your mouse wheel forward you can zoom in and see better details on the photo on the MTFCI site. Even though it displays smaller, it is a higher resolution copy. In this case they are only different by about 100kb. From a 162 kb to 265kb that is a good increase. If the photo 900kb and it was increased to 1000kb it would not help as much for seeing the details. But give it a try and hopefully you will see what I mean.
I'm still hoping that someone will some day see the original at the Henry Ford Archives and that in the lower right hand corner there will be a date on the photo. Some of them do not have a date on the photo. Once the Ford Photographic section got started (I think around 1914? see: http://www.thehenryford.org/research/photoFilmDepart.aspx ) I believe most of their photos had a date and a number so they could locate them again. Often times when the photos are printed in books etc. they crop them and the date will be left off.
Another way to possibly help date the photo is to find when it was first published. I would guess it may have been used in an issue of "Ford Times." Does anyone remember seeing the photo in an early publication? While it may have been several months old when published, we would know that it was taken before the magazine was published.
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1909 model for comparison. Note the flat front fenders with no bills. Grey color, including the top bows.
Charley – I apologizes for misspelling your name. I type my postings in Word and then copy them to the forum and I “goofed” and did not copy all of your name.
Thank you for adding the photo of the 1909 Ford roadster. And for those few folks like me who like to keep photos and threads together, please see the same car in the larger photo with other Ts at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/239346.html?1323849406 [That way when I look at this posting a year from now ... I have the link to the other posting also.] Per the conversation in that thread it appears to be included with a shipment of water pump equipped Model Ts. It may also have been a water pump engine with a three pedal transmission. From the square front fenders without the bill it would indicate it was also one of the first 2500 or close to that Model T Fords. Why 2500? Apparently Ford ordered many parts / assemblies in batches of 2500.
Note also that Model T # 2500 was a thermo siphon car manufactured May 4, 1909 (ref Bruce’s CD). Note also that we normally call the 2500 the early 1909s and the later Thermo siphon cars (first one was #2448 manufactured Apr 22, 1909) as the later 1909s. But from Oct 1908 to Apr 1909 which was 7 months they produced approximately 2500 Ts and from May to Jul the “end” of the model year was 3 months they produced and additional 5600 or so Ts with car #8100 manufactured Jul 31, 1909. And the difference between the last car produced Jul 31 and the first cars produced in Aug would have been the date on the shipping document and the serial number of the car.
Based on all the information posted in this thread so far, I believe there is a small window where the original the roadster in the original photo that started this posting could have been produced during the 1909 model year, a larger window when it could have been produced in 1909 calendar year but 1910 model year. And another window when it could have been produced in calendar year 1910 before all the radiators went to the taller filler neck. Of course if we could obtain additional information about when the roadsters stop using that style of top, that would also help us date the photo better. If they were only used with the 1909 model year then the car would be a 1909. I would love to document when that style of top for the roadster was discontinued if anyone has additional information.
Again, thanks to everyone for their help.
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