How do you line up the universal joint pin hole.......

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: How do you line up the universal joint pin hole.......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 03:08 pm:

How do you line up the universal joint pin hole with the drive shaft? The drive shaft hole is about an eighth to three 16th of an inch too far back.

This is a 1912 engine transmission if that helps - two piece. Drive shaft was rebuilt so it is new inside.

I am about to remove the universal joint housing from the engine side because bolting the drive shaft to the housing did not pull it forward.

Any thoughts are appreciative.

Thanks, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 03:42 pm:

Early parts might make it difficult, don't have experience with early 2-piece unit. But I have found the repro driveshaft isn't within spec of the hole distance anyway.

Compare new repo on left, Ford original on right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 03:46 pm:

I had the same problem when I put new drive shaft in my 26. I remove the pinion gear and installed the U joint then put the shaft back in the torque tube and put the pinion gear back on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 04:02 pm:

that has to line up because it is what controls the end play in the shaft, and the pinion gear depth. figure out which hole is correct, then either face off the bushing in the tube, or take some off the u joint, which ever needs to move. if you did the rear axle at the same time, drive shaft is first to do as you need the assembled unit to set the gear clearance in the rear end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 04:13 pm:

If you replaced the front bushing in the torque tube, you need to face the bushing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 05:24 pm:

I ground down the u-joint end that butts up against the bushing in the drive shaft and put the pin through. It now fits snug.

But the u-joint housing plug hole does not line up. If I widen the hole it will strip the threads.

This is absurd. Any suggestions for this problem. I would rather not take the drive shaft apart if I can help it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 06:29 pm:

You could drill the U joint with a relocated hole to match the improperly made drive shaft on the other plane. I agree, it does seem absurd that the hole is improperly located.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 07:46 pm:

like larry s. said, if the bushing never got faced to fit, there may be nothing wrong with the parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 09:52 pm:

Do you have the Ford service manual?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 10:55 pm:

I have a 15 and in it's other life it was used for pulling implements that were attached to the rear housing and this caused the cross member to be out of line and therefore the bell and universal would not come together. I had to realign the cross member with considerable force to make things fit, just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, May 10, 2014 - 11:45 pm:

My guess is that you could leave the pin out and it would be just fine. On the rear axles I have dismantled, they all have been in two pieces. If the bushing is not faced then the whole assembly would likely be jammed together when you install the rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 01:25 am:

The hole in the drive shaft may indeed be miss located but the picture in the post above doesn't prove anything. I say that because the square upper end of the driveshaft simply slips into the ujoint enough to engage the thing and then the pin holds the ujoint to the driveshaft hopefully in the exact location necessary for the large ball housing pivot center to be concentric with the ujoint pivot axis. The ujoint hole location is called out as an exact distance from the top of the shaft pinion gear mating taper at the pinion end of the shaft to the center of the ujoint pin hole. This defines the exact location and the amount of metal from that hole to the upper end of the driveshaft as pictured is not critical. Measure the distance the correct way on both shafts and then see how far off it is if any before you redrill the shaft or you may be further off than when you started. The exact dimension on the Ford drawing of the driveshaft says 51.245/51.255 Go measure again or you might be sorry. I don't think the maker of the driveshafts has the factory drawing or else if they do they certainly decided to omit some of the details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 04:12 am:

If using the modern pinion bearing set up, I do not pin the u joint, many disagree but after thousands of miles I have had no problems. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 07:37 am:

I used a Fun Projects pinion bearing set up and a new drive shaft from Lang's in my '26 rear end rebuild. No problems. The hole lined up perfectly. Would there be a difference in vendor drive shafts? I replaced my drive shaft bushing but didn't have to face it thanks to the pinion bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 10:21 am:

Keith:

I respectfully disagree since if the ujoint slides forward or rearward from its correct location and there is a sudden change of the rear end to frame height the ujoint will then need to be "squirted" forward or rearward and it could move with some pretty heavy force depending on how far away from the correct position it is at that time. The upper end of the driveshaft is not hardened and was not designed as a slip joint. Lot's of things seem to work well without issue for a time on some cars. I kind of see it like playing Russian Roulette. Even though a gun might have a hundred cylinders the game isn't safe but could appear to be safe for a long time. Ultimately it is up to the restorer to decide.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 10:30 am:

Kevin:

Unfortunately there have been quite a few differences in the repro drive shafts over the years. They seem to be made right for a time and then the formula seems to get lost for a time. You don't have to provide a "precision" face thickness on the upper bushing when using the modern setups typically but you do need to make sure that the bushing surface is not interfering with the positioning of the drive shaft spool at the bottom end of the driveshaft. The back end of the ujoint should not be tight against the bushing face when you pin the ujoint to the drive shaft. The pin locates the ujoint at the correct upper end position on the drive shaft and the taper locates the gear at the other end so that all is correct lengthwise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 03:01 pm:

Everybody can do what they want the way the want to do it but I pin the U Joint with it tight up against the bushing. I face off the bushing before installation and then adjust the clearance with arbor washers until it is snug to the bushing face and pin the U joint.

I'd send that driveshaft back or just turn it 90 degrees and redrill the hole. It can't hurt it much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 06:42 pm:

Stan Howe had an interesting idea. He said turn the shaft 90 degrees and drill it in the correct spot.

Do you think that would weaken the shaft? I don't.

But then even if that worked, the rear end of the u-joint would not
butt up against the shaft bushing.

Do you think it matters if the u-joint rear end is not touching the bushing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 06:57 pm:

Robert

Depends on the parts, if using the original Hyatt pinion bearing, then yes. A gap presents chance of poor pinion gear mesh.

No if using Fun Project modern pinion. A gap there is no matter.

In fact, using repro parts, Univ, driveshaft, and Fun Projects, I still had trimmed the new brass upper bushing as usual, but the Univ joint flange was now squealing on the bushing face.

Too tight, I could feel heat when running on the jack stands, with the engine turning the driveshaft. The noise was at the Univ. joint. Had to remove the torque tube, and remove material at the Univ joint flange. Squeal and heat gone, driveshaft turning good to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 09:15 am:

Robert,

Yes, it absolutely will weaken the shaft. How could it not? The question is, will it weaken it too much. Personally, I don't want to find out, and I wouldn't recommend others to discover it either.

Keith,

I agree 100% with John Regan on the pin issue. Since he is the guy you trust with the manufacture of the modern pinion bearing, why then would you not follow his advice on it's proper installation & use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 10:40 am:

Why would the end of the U Joint not fit up against the bushing?? If it won't with the hole in the drive shaft placing the U Joint in the correct position in relation to the rear bearing -- you have more problems to deal with. There is something wrong in the back end.

The hole in the driveshaft is far enough inside the square hole in the U Joint that I don't think there is much possibility of any problems caused by drilling a new hole.

Yes, the end of the U Joint needs to fit up against the bushing so there is, at most, a slight drag when turned. You should be able to turn the entire assembly with your fingers or possibly a little short wrench. If it is hard to turn you need to face the bushing.

I'm sure this is a stretch but are you using the early style pinion bearing where the bolts go through holes and can't be seen after installation?? If you are using a late style bearing with an early style drive shaft it won't fit together correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 10:47 am:

Stan,

"The hole in the driveshaft is far enough inside the square hole in the U Joint...."

Yes, that's an excellent point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 12:52 pm:

Jerry, I like living on the edge! :-). after forty seven thousand on this one and a friend of mine has over a hundred thou. on one I don't think I have to worry. The original set up depended on the pin to work. I do not however promote this way to others, just stating that this is the way I run mine. the u joint will find its spot and self center, never had any vibration or other problems. Last time I had the engine out to fix leaks and take up the bearings everything looked fine and no unusual wear. I like to experiment at times and having made my living as a mechanic I feel pretty confident in my work most of the time:-} KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 01:09 pm:

Thanks for your advice and suggestions. I am going to see a man in our club who will probably take it apart and check the rear end as it relates to the front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 02:48 pm:

Some comments about the upper bushing face. On the original setup by Ford the driveshaft is located in one direction by the bottom end pinion gear pushing against the inner sleeve which is pushing on the ball thrust bearing which is pushing against the lower face of the drive shaft housing. The heavy thrust is essentially always in the same direction whether you are braking or accelerating since the assembly is a straight bevel gear. The end play of the driveshaft (free travel forward and backward) is limited in the other direction by the back end of the ujoint sliding against the front face surface of the driveshaft upper bushing. That end play should be .004 or pertnear. This precise end play is setup by facing off the bushing for a proper fit near .004 but obviously it is a one way adjustment so it must be done very carefully.

The Fun Projects setup if installed properly with good parts has zero end play because the bearing at the bottom of the drive shaft has a slight preload in the down direction and the main thrust of the load in the other. Thus there is no end play and there is no need for any precision fit of the back of the ujoint against the bushing face but in fact there needs to be some clearance as Dan pointed out. I believe the ujoint should be pinned to keep it located for reasons stated previously. As an engineer I always try to think of the "worst case" scenario.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 04:20 pm:

Keith,

Fair enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william louis rosenthal on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 08:41 am:

Hello Robert:
Please continue to post how this is researched and resolved. I'm struggling to visualize how the driveshaft could be positioned 3/16" too far back toward the differential, assuming the torque tube and pinion housing are correct early parts?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 09:23 am:

An equally unusual problem is why the radius rods appear to be too short.

Could this happen if the Drive Shaft Bearing housing was the later 1920 to 1927 type?


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