Transmission trouble?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Transmission trouble?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 11:39 am:

There's a question mark in the title because I'm not sure if this is trouble or not. Installing new band linings in the 1923 touring I've found a misalignment of the drums and the pedal shafts.


The drums appear to be about 1/8" behind where they should be to line up with the pedal shafts and bands. The surface of the brake drum shows you where the old lining was riding. The mismatch didn't ever seem to affect the way the car ran, but I wonder if this is likely to become a problem. Is there enough slop in the hogshead bolts to account for this? If so maybe I need to take it off and reinstall it farther back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 12:02 pm:

That's about as normal as seen....wouldn't bug me. :-)

Here is a '23 engine/transmission view, yet to be taken apart after years of storage out of a chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 12:06 pm:

Steve

Just noticed the overhang of the lining on the low band, on the adj. screw side. Might get mushed up against the other side when adjusted in place, or could get rolled over and drag on the drum. For me, about 1/4" overhang works best. The demountable band ear side seems fine to me, but the lining on the fixed side of the band is overhanging some more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 12:53 pm:

Looking again, I realize that hogshead isn't moving anywhere. It and the pan are both bolted to the ball cap.

Yes, on the low band I did get a bit too much lining sticking out on the end. I'll trim it back a bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 12:55 pm:

Steve, were you able to fish out the band ear that you dropped earlier?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 01:05 pm:

Maybe you have too much crankshaft end play or drums have too much end play on the transmission shaft. If you put it in high then push the drums forward do the bands line up better?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 01:06 pm:

Yep, magnet got it. After that reminder about the danger of dropping things, I put a floss tether on it when I installed it. I'll stuff in rags before I do all the little pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 01:11 pm:

I used this tool from Lang's to install my band nuts and washers, it worked well for getting them started without risk of dropping them.

http://www.modeltford.com/item/3416TNW.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 01:25 pm:

With the transmission in high to let the drums move, they slide back & forth a little under 1/16". Apparently the car has run like this for a long time without any ill effects, so I won't worry about it until it's time for an engine rebuild. This car has been full of surprises, so that could years from now, or weeks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Sunday, May 11, 2014 - 08:47 pm:

Could be a combination of third main and clutch drum disk wear. Third main excessive wear will have an impact on your magnet to field coil clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 09:36 am:

Those new band linings look like Kevlar. Kevlar is very unforgiving. You need to line things up properly before driving. Does your magneto work? If not, you very likely have too much end play in the crankshaft. (assuming it is endplay) With that much alignment problem, you might be putting excess wear on all the engine parts as well. The rods will be too far to the rear causing the pistons to wear on the rear part of the cylinders, and the timing gears to be out of line. It might be time to go through the entire engine and rebuild.

I am speaking from experience. Sometimes doing the least to an engine costs more in the long run than doing it right.

Anyway, something is causing the drums to move toward the rear of the transmission. The hogs head can't move forward, but the other parts can move backward with wear.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 12:10 pm:

It seems I've answered my own question. Yes, it's trouble.


The reverse band is riding on the flange so it won't fit around the drum. The drums are at the front of their little bit of play, and are still too far back for the band to fit. I was hoping to use this car awhile before getting around to a rebuild, but it looks like the time has come.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 12:37 pm:

Sorry to hear that, Steve. I guess you'll be shifting priorities to finishing up the runabout, eh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 01:24 pm:

Yep, I need at least one T I can drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 01:51 pm:

Steve

Dunno but to me everything will line up once the pedal shafts are in, springs placed, and band washers and nuts snug to operating spec.

The metal bands when loose around the drums will shape back, unless the bands were twisted when re-lined.

The bands need to be true in a circle with about 3"-4" gap between the ears after lining is on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 01:58 pm:

IMO, you're so close to having it buttoned up now, it's certainly worth a try to re-install the shafts, springs, washers and nuts to see where everything sits when assembled.

If things are still askew, then at least you can put the transmission cover back on and set the car aside knowing that all the parts are present and accounted for so that you don't have to hunt for them later.

Remember, I'm pulling for you, we're all in this together. :-)

red_green


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 02:43 pm:

Yes, but...
With that reverse band over the flange, there's no way I'll ever get it closed enough to get the hardware on it. Maybe if I go ahead and do the brake and reverse bands, the reverse band will move over enough to fit. I doubt that, but I'll give it a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 06:48 pm:

Maybe you could remove the lining from the bands and re-install with the lining offset to one side. As long as the lining is thicker then the flange on the reverse drum you should be good to go for awhile.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, May 12, 2014 - 07:05 pm:

I would change the front two band linings to old original Ford, Monky Wards or Scandinavia. Then it would be OK to putter around in or even drive a few hundred miles on a tour if need be.

Likely problem is a worn thrust surface on the main bearings. You could perhaps change the main caps to improve the situation. I've never tried that, but heard others report it worked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 03:27 pm:


After discussing this with Mike Bender and checking a couple of things he suggested, and looking at a picture he sent me of another 1923 transmission, I figured out that the drums are not misplaced. This taught me the reason that the Ford book says install reverse first. Having the low band in, there wasn't enough room for the reverse band and it was riding on the flange. Once I moved the low and brake bands back to make space, I was able to get the reverse band off the flange and compress it to install the washer and nut. Now the struggle is to get the low band compressed enough to go back where it belongs. It's hanging up somewhere. But I'm quitting. To maintain my alleged sanity, two hours at a time is my limit on this. It will still be there later.

And if you're wondering, yes, I definitely did stuff in the rags when I installed the reverse washer and nut.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 04:03 pm:

2 hours!
Come on Steve, Henry said it could be done in 30 minutes....

:-)

Hang in there it'll come together.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 04:08 pm:

Steve

Just a hint, maybe you did it this way, but better to place the bands, then tie them with wire or zip ties, so that they are lined up right on the drums.

Then for me its easier to place the hogshead, down and on, but no bolts yet to the crankcase. Then fit pedal shafts, and fit the washers/nuts to brake and reverse, cut the wire tie, then finish with the hogshead down and bolted.

I'm never in the mood or have enough patience to 'go thru the inspection cover' to replace bands, I'd rather take the time and remove and install the hogshead. Just this ole guys way. :-)











Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 05:32 pm:

Dan, you're cheating. :-)

I'm doing it through the open door, sort of like the book says. Henry allowed forty minutes, but that was for experienced Model T mechanics. I'll be happy if I can get the job done in forty hours.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 05:40 pm:

I think Ford advertised that it could be done in 10 minutes. Dan didn't you post an old advertisement that promoted this? If it wasn't you somebody else did!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 06:14 pm:

I changed the bands in my '27 Tudor through the cover.
Working in the opening wasn't the problem.......it was the God awful positions my body had to get into to DO it that was murder....... :-(
Yes Steve......I read the book about the band sequence first....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 06:41 pm:

Yep Here is that old adv on how fast to change bands :-)



Perhaps I do cheat now, but once only did I try to change thru the cover, and oh my ...:-(

The old bands, after removing the demount ears, nuts and pedal shafts, just sprung wide open and wedged down in the crankcase, ear on one side stuck fast. Had to remove the hogshead to get the sprung bands out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

This ad demonstrates that the world of advertising is an alternate universe to the real world.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 12:13 am:

I have changed bands through the little opening. Even without the removable ear. Piece of cake!
Then again. The last (past) time I tried to do that? About five hours later? STILL STUCK???
We won't go there.

Steve, chances are good, that once you get everything seated into place, it should be okay. Worth a try. If it makes bad noises then on the other hand?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 12:20 am:

LMAO @ Steve.......LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 07:34 am:

I'm a young guy with smaller hands but that whole "change the bands through the transmission inspection cover" thing is for the birds. Lol, I LOATHE removing the hogshead because I hate ruining a good seal when I'm not leaking any oil. But by golly if I have to change the bands the hogshead is coming off.

Side note: I went with some Guinn wood bands and holy smokes, when I had the T apart this last time there was virtually no discernible wear on them. I've driven a few thousand miles in the car since I installed those and had to adjust the bands a little once everything really shaped itself to the drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 11:14 am:

Back in the mid 50s I replaced band linings through the cover plate in a '27 when I was 16 years old.
I had to figure out how to do it on my own, no book, no fancy tools, no internet, didn't know/couldn't find anybody that knew anything about it, so I just did it. Don't remember how long it took, IIRC probably an hour or three.
I was able to buy linings and rivets from an old auto wrecking yard in the city. It had been there so long the city had grown around it.
Hang in there Steve, ifn I did it then I'm sure you can do it now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 12:39 pm:

Sorry Steve
To far to come over and help today, But with you're camera skills I hope that you're filming you're progress so we can see how you're doing.

HA HA
Bob


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