Snakebit Can of Worms 27 Sport Touring runs again ....!!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Snakebit Can of Worms 27 Sport Touring runs again ....!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 08:55 pm:

I finally got the rebuilt engine installed in my 1927 Sport Touring. Some of you may remember it from previous threads of the never ending can of worms problems. I started the engine today. It was pretty tight but was able to start it with the hand crank. It was not easy but with a little readjust of the spark and carb settings It fired right up. I had Mike Bender rebuild it for me. Mike if you see this, it sounds great and no oil leaks. Thats a little scary to me but maybe I can get used to it. Only had a couple little things to fix. I had a small seep at the rear Buffalo Nickel freeze plug I installed (not Mike). It stopped as soon as it heated up a little. Another small problem is the carb is now dripping, so I may have a speck of trash in the needle seat, as it did not leak before the overhaul of the engine. The only other thing is my fan belt is riding up on the lower pulley. It has a new lower pulley with flanges and the fan shaft is rebuilt with new bearings and a good shaft, There is no play at the fan. I will have to figure it out later. I ran it about 20 minutes before it started boiling. Thats pretty good for a new rebuilt engine. Ill re-tork the head bolts tomorrow and then idle it till it boils again. Then Ill adjust the Kevlar bands. Ive never used Kevlar before. Mike said to sneak up on the adjustment. Then test drive time ......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 08:58 pm:

engineengine 2engine 3engine 4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 09:45 pm:

Donnie, what makes it a Sport Touring. I have a '27 Touring with wire wheels, does that make it a Sport Touring? I have seen period pictures of what is described as a Sport Touring but really don't know what makes it one. I believe the picture I am thinking of also shows a top boot cover and what I think are called gypsy curtains on the car but everything else seems to be standard touring car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:07 pm:

I believe the Sport Touring will have wire wheels, bumpers, Tan Top Boot and Tan Gypsy Curtains, at a bare minimum, It could have vacuum wiper, "Stop" tail light, and wind wings instead of gypsy curtains. as options. I also believe that they were black only and not in color. The black only is my opinion and Im still researching trying to prove my suspicions on Sport Tourings and Sport Roadsters only being offered in black... I have posted a pic of a period advertising card showing the Sport Touring. The Sport Roadster was equipped the same as tourings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:09 pm:

card


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

I forgot the Nickel Radiator shell and rear view mirror. I believe the Standard car mentioned in the ad may have been the Non Starter car offered in 1926 only. Non Starters had a black radiator shell. By 1927 the non starter was no longer offered. The "Stop" tail light and the Vacuum wiper may have been part of the package but Im just not sure if they came with the package or you had to add them. If I had to guess, I would say the car shown and described in the ad above is as close as we will ever know what one looked like......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 - 10:50 pm:

Here are some more factory pics of the "Sport Touring" . Main features are the fawn color boot, bumpers, and other accessories that were now factory available.

A sport because it wasn't a plain Jane T anymore! For the young folks to ride in style.









Could be had with wood natural finish wheels or wire.




And also, a "Sport Runabout" too!





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:38 am:

Dan, Thanks for the pics. I noticed one thing I have never noticed before. The wood wheel models have wind wings and the wire wheel models have gypsy curtains. Could there have been 2 different "Sport" offerings from the factory. It also says wind wings may be substituted for gypsy curtains. The ad for the red wheel roadster says the "nickeled radiator can be added" I wonder if that one may be a 1926 "non starter" version of a "sport touring" ?? I have often wondered if the "Sport" models left the factory finished as a "Sport" model or were partially equipped as to wheels and bumpers and then the rest of the items were to be "dealer installed" as a type of kit or upgrade. Henry liked to have the dealers do a lot of the work for him.... I think the brown car in the last pic may be a Canadian built US Model with the brown paint and fawn top boot. It may be an artist rendition of the car, and he forgot to add the bumpers. ???? Thanks again for the pics ..It appears to me that I will add Natural Wood Wheels to the list of "Sport" options. My new definition of Sport Touring or Roadster is: A 1926 or 27 Touring or Roadster that can have any or all of the following. Wire wheels or Natural Wood Wheels, Nickel Radiator Shell (If non starter 26 model it can have black shell), Rear View Mirror, Vacuum Wiper, Stop Tail Light, Fawn Gypsy Curtains and Fawn Top Boot, Wind Wings(substituted for gypsy curtains), Did I forget anything.??? Agree or disagree.??? I would like to come up with a standard answer to the sport touring question .... Feel free to add to or challenge any of my opinions as to the definition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:44 am:

Try letting up a bit on your fan belt tension.

If that doesn't help, the problem may be that the upper water outlet is bent in the fan support area, causing misalignment.

Let us know what you find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:47 am:

Cool car Donnie! Can you post more pics of the rest of it? I really like the ultra clean engine compartment. That looks fantastic. Also, no oil leaks from anywhere is just weird. I recently had my engine out and apart and was super pleased with myself that I've really got it sealed up tight, no drips, nothin'. Then I ran it and now the previously non-leaking crankshaft main seal now drips oil. *facepalm* part of me wishes I had swapped to a new neoprene main seal and part of me is just annoyed that it's the ONLY spot that leaks (I had no reason to replace it though because it's never leaked before).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 01:35 pm:

Jerry: I put the belt back into position today and it is staying on the pulley. I think it is a bad belt as you can see the edges of the belt move back and forth as it is running. It now "walks" from flange to flange but is staying on. It is also a little looser now, probably from running on top of the flange. I already had it fairly loose. Seth I did develop a little oil seep at one of the bolts holding the Texas T Parts oil line casting to the hogs head. Im going to remove the bolts one at a time and coat them with permatex #2. That should fix a little seep. I feel better now that I saw a little oil seep. My grandpa always told me "If its not leaking oil, It has no oil in it" He also said "unless the headlights start leaking oil, do not worry about it" I retorqued the head bolts today and ran it another 20 minutes before it boiled. I may try a test drive tomorrow if it quits raining. Its supposed to be 38 degrees here tonight. Mid May in Arkansas and 38 degrees ..???? This may be another year without a summer like they had back in the 1700s or 1800s when the Volcano Krackatoa blew up (probably spelled wrong). Ill try to post a few pics of the car. I still have the front fenders and hood to paint and install. But its getting closer to done every day....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Spencer Vibert on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 07:09 pm:

Looks good Donnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

I started it up again today and it ran good. I have all leaks stopped and the belt is still staying on the lower pulley. I installed the front wheels and greased the bearings. The carb is leaking bad, so tomorrow Ill tear into it. I had already rebuilt it and it was working perfect before. It ran good on the old engine before the overhaul. I guess its just a few more worms trying to fight back. Ill post a few pics of the project. Hope it quits raining so I can do a test drive soon. I have been working on this thing all winter long ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

As bought with peeling paintas bought


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:10 pm:

Steam cleaner removed the black paint. The primer was OKsteam cleanedsteamed cleaned 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

repaint in progressrepaintrepaint 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:16 pm:

The engine work done by Mike Bender and the engine when I picked it up at Chickasha. Also one of the Buffalo nickels. engineengine 2engine 3engine 4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:18 pm:

Installing the engine and as it is today. Ready for fenders and hood. engine installas it is today


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 09:30 pm:

I noticed in the photo of today that the paint on the doors and the body are different. I think by me painting the body in the winter, the temp was only in the 50s on the days I could paint. I have to paint outside when I get the chance. The doors were painted last week and the temp was in the 70s. I think the different drying times caused the different finish. Looks like I get to do a whole body blend when I get it all together. No big deal. Will have to scuff the whole outside of the car and mask off the top and interior. Probably about 2 days time... But if I paint it all at the same time it will have to match. Just a couple more "worms"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:00 pm:

I want to mention about the engine rebuild. I tore down 6 complete 26 27 engines to get one good block. 2 useable EE cranks, There were 12 transmissions I tore down to get my brake drum and low drum. We did not find one reverse drum good enough to use. Almost all the reverse drums were cracked or excessive wear (real thin) I bought a new reverse drum riveted to a good used gear. Out of six 4 dip pans not one was good enough to use without major repair. Mike found me a good one that would straighten OK. Out of the six engines there were plenty of rods, main caps, a few useable low and brake drums. the cams were good enough to have ground but I opted for a new Stipe. Out of the six hogs heads only 2 did not have broken "ears". that bolt to the pan. It really suprised me how bad the stuff is we have to chose from these days. These were not "trash" engines. Just average old engines. I have stored the cracked blocks, the cracked drums with good gears, and whatever can be used if repaired. The 4 dip pans are stored for future repair. In a few years I fear that a lot of us will be having to use that kind of stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:04 pm:

Are we going to get to see it at Petit Jean in June?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

I built my 24 sport touring with tan upholstery, maroon paint and wind wings. My wife saw a photo of the 27 sport touring and liked what she saw, particularly the the light colored upholstery. I used the same maroon as Royce Peterson, Sr used on his 14 touring. As many of you know this car was rear ended on last year's Texas T Party and now awaits our next turn of events.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 - 11:34 pm:

Mike Im trying...... This was supposed to be a quick tune up, a quick repaint, and done .... I passed that point way back in early 2013. I do not have very much more to do. I have restored rust bucket cars with trees growing up thru the frame with less problems than this one has had. When I bought it from the estate, it appeared to be a 12 year old restoration with bad paint and bad gas that had turned to goo. I cleaned out the tank and found it had an old liner poured in it that had turned loose, and also some poor repairs. So I had another tank I could use and cleaned and fixed it instead. Then after a good carb over haul it was time to start it. It started very easy, idled good, would free start, and I could hand crank on mag with one pull. But when I took the first test drive, It had no power and overheated in one trip around the shop. The exhaust was glowing red. I found the timing so far off at the timer you had to run it at full advance to keep it going. But it would still free start.??? I pulled the head and everything looked good, but the head was cracked. (water jacket to outside)and no water leak. So next pulled the timing cover and found the front cam bearing was loose in the block .040. The bearing fit the cam perfect and the clearances at the lifters was aprox .014 to .016 overall. But with the bearing loose in the block .040 it would let the cam gear move enough to give me a negative .004 to.006 clearance and be holding the valves open at higher RPM or when under a load. The front valves were burnt but not real bad. So I replaced the front cam bearing with a good one that fit the block, reground the valves, bought adjustable lifters, and put her back together with a good head. I fired her up and it was running good, everything looked good again, till I saw the oil leaking at the front of the block. It appears there was another crack. It was from the front main bearing bolt hole out thru the front of the block to the timing gear cover. It appears the previous owner had been driving the car with the timing off so long that it probably has been overheated over and over and over. It was then I just had to back off and step away from the engine. I went thru all my engines and got enough stuff for Mike Bender to build me a new engine. The old engine is good enough for my tractor conversion but not good enough for a "tour" car. While the engine was out I thought I would do a repaint and check out the chassis. The steering column was shot. The "stop" pin had worked lose and cut a groove all the way around the inside of the steering gear case. It would allow the steering to go way over center. So I had to totally rebuild a steering column. I thought the axle was OK. Not so. The threads were stripped on the bottom where the spindle bolt fits. So I had to rebuild the axle, I was repacking the front wheel bearings today and two of the bearings and races had to be replaced. And now I get to rebuild the carb again, as it is leaking like a sieve. This car has fought me every step of the way. On a positive note, it is a very solid rust free car. It has what appears to be a surface restoration done to an original complete car. I believe it was repainted without taking it apart. The uphoulstery and top material has been replaced, but the rest of the car appears to be original. All of the wood is original, there is aprox 75% of the original paint still on the car. There were lots of runs and sags in the original paint that I left and just lightly re-coated over them. Almost all the bolts are correct thick heads and were correct for their locations. I have not tore the rear end down to see if it has brass thrust washers or not. I will have to do that before I take here out on the road. I see the rear end and drive shaft being a total rebuild. Everything else has been. But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I hope to have everything done and road tested, with some local miles near home by the fall Tin Lizzie tour at Harrison Arkansas. Oh yea I almost forgot to mention the block and radiator were full of grease from the water pump they had added to help solve the overheating problem. It took 2 cans of crystal Draino to boil out all the grease from the block and radiator. Hope to see you at Petitt Jean....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 08:00 am:

Lol Donnie - sounds about like my '14 speedster. I did enough at first to get it to run and drive and then would drive it and find something that needed fixing . . . while I had things apart to fix one thing I'd find 4-5 others that really needed attention before I put it back together.

But MAN she runs sweetly!! I really like your car Donnie. Can't wait to see it all done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 10:56 am:

I have bought three T's in the past which I thought just needed to be "finished up." On all of them, I ended up taking them down to the bare frame and starting over. :-)

We live and learn.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 08:34 pm:

Mike W. I have to respectively disagree. "We live" but we do not "Learn" ... See ya at Petitt Jean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 10:29 pm:

I think you're right, Donnie -- If I had been a good learner, the same thing wouldn't have happened 3 times! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 10:36 pm:

Mike W, Just think of the fun we would have missed if we had been quick learners.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, May 15, 2014 - 11:13 pm:

:-) :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 11:25 am:

"Ill re-tork the head bolts tomorrow and then idle it till it boils again."

What I would like to know is: Why is it boiling? Poor radiator? Or?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 01:52 pm:

Ken: Almost any model T will boil if it is sitting still, especially a new overhaul. 20 minutes of setting still is a long time to idle a model T. I wanted to see it boil as I always add a block sealer to a new engine that has had a total clean out and clean up. Its a "just in case" type of thing. By boiling the water for a few minutes it makes the sealer circulate thru the system better. A good, "broken in" engine may last a little longer till it boils. You may have a T that is the exception, but I would almost guarantee that yours will boil if you let it sit still, inside a warm shop (open the door) , at idle, for 30 minutes.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 01:56 pm:

I forgot. A water pump will change the boiling aspect of the engine. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. I was just talking about a thermo syphon system ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 05:49 am:

Donnie, if your T boils when idling, you need a new radiator. With a good flat tube radiator, it shouldn't boil at all, at least mine doesn't, no matter how long it idles or what the ambient temp is. As for a new overhaul, that may make some difference, but it shouldn't be a problem after a few breakin miles. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 07:26 am:

Donnie, I'm showing my ignorance here so please bare with me. You mentioned a block sealer. What exactly is a block sealer? Are you talking about the water jacket in the block? If so it sounds like you're talking about stop leak. Is that assumption correct? One of the reasons I'm asking is because I just had the engine for my '26 rebuilt. I put what seems like a boatload of money into it and if there's something available to improve the reliability of the engine I may want to look into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 09:44 am:

David: I agree that a flat tube radiator will probably not boil. A well broken in engine with a very good radiator probably will also not boil. But from my observations, most Ts are not in perfect tune and a lot have round tube radiators. Even a new round tube is not as good as a flat tube. They will boil if left to idle for long periods. but there are the exceptions. Also if you run antifreeze it takes longer to boil or has to get hotter than plain water. I will run antifreeze later but for now I have water only (with a sealer) that I will change out soon. If Im not mistaken,(have been before) the Ford "service manual" even states "run engine till it boils" on some of the test procedures as to carb or ignition problems. Mike, Yes, It is a form of stop leak in the water jackets. I use a sealer as a "just in case" type of thing. I use a "Liguid Glass" or "Ceramic" type of sealer. They are a form of stop leak. Bars Leak is one brand I use. This is one of those subjects like "what oil to use" Some will agree and some will disagree as to use sealer or not. Even though I magnafluxed the block and head, milled the head and block, new head gasket, ect., a small hairline crack may have been missed. Also with a very good cleaning of the block, head and radiator, I feel there is a chance something may have been disturbed that was not leaking before. Read the directions of the sealer you chose if you decide to use one. They very greatly as to how to use. Some can be used with antifreeze, some can not. Some you leave in the radiator and block, others you need to drain out after awhile. Hope that answers your question ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 09:46 am:

"Almost any model T will boil if it is sitting still"

I may be a sceptic, but I don't believe that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 10:07 am:

I live in Florida. Two of my T's have new radiators and they never boil over even when I am sitting at a draw bridge waiting for it to close. The other two have original radiators. One of them boils over if it sits at an idle for a few minutes but cools right down when it is moving. The other one runs hotter than I would like but does not boil over. I guess I will eventually need two new radiators but it is clear to me that a Model T with a decent radiator will not overheat unless it is a fresh, tight rebuilt engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 10:24 am:

Looks like Im starting to be outnumbered. Im just basing the boiling issue on the cars I have been around. Most of the Ts I have dealt with were not in as/new condition. They were just older restorations or original Ts. I am by no way an expert. But I would like to offer a challenge. Some day when the temp is at least mid 70s to 80s degrees, idle your car for 30 minutes. (no water pump) Let me know if it is steaming at the overflow pipe. If it is then you are boiling. I will agree that a T in very good shape may not boil, It is just most of the Ts I see are not in perfect running condition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 10:43 am:

I drive long parades here in Texas. Some times at 110 degrees. Before that I lived in Tucson Arizona where we would tour up into the mountains at temperatures into the 115 region. No problem with overheating ever. No water pump, round tube radiator, 50/50 anti freeze mixture.

Here's my 12 in Tucson at a show where it was 116 degrees in the shade.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 12:09 pm:

OK I give up, Im clearly outnumbered, I retreat and change my statement to "Some" Ts will boil when idleing. Ive been proved wrong again, just do not tell my wife. "what happens on the forum, stays on the forum" "smile" but I am going to stick by "Some Ts" will boil, I will not surrender any more ground, I will fight to the last man, and surrender or take no prisoners.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 12:45 pm:

Donnie,

I had always understood that for the thermo syphon system to work correctly you needed to get the water "close" to the boiling pt. it's the temp difference that gets the circulation going.

Larry


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