Well I avoided a real disaster. Took my Model t touring out of storage and drove it 11 miles home at 25 Mph to get ready for the towns Memorial Day Parade. Washing it today i noticed a protruding rear wheel carriage bolt . ??? Shook rear wheel it was really LOOSE ! Loom at the pictures of all the rear bolts completely sheared off. What held the wheel on - Luck ! i am not familiar with this rear aux brake set up. There appears to be a spacer plate between the wheel and the brake drum. It appears the carriage bolts are sheared off in the drum. Any advice on repair ? It seems I need to take the aux brakes off / To pull the rear hub with a wheel puller ?
Boy how can i delete the above Post ? I was so upset i now see the 'spacer plate" I mentioned is the rear of the wheel hub !!! Now to figure out how to take off the rear hub , find some carriage bolts, fix it and try and determine why they failed !
Dave, you need more than just the bolts. Those spokes are pretty much toast. About all they are good for is a yard art wheel. JMHO. Dave
Don't use any old carriage bolts.
Use the correct grade ones. Check the Model t vendors.
To remove the wheel hub, you need a puller or a knock off.
The cheap route is the knock off. It's a large nut that threads on the axle after you remove the axle nut, and you hit with hard sharp blows with a heavy 3-5 lbs sledge.
The other way is a puller that threads over the hub cap threads on the hub, and locks, it too has a bolt head to whop, and then you turn the bolt to make the tool pull off the hub/wheel.
As for your spokes, the holes are now wallowed out, and no way to safely fix with new special hard wheel bolts, (don't ever use hardware store carriage bolts, too soft!). The spokes are likely loose too as there has been lots of movement that finally sheared off the bolts leaving the nuts inside the wheel drum.
Knock off nut type puller for the axle thread
Well update I got it apart. Check the pictures. It shows the sheared melted heads of the nuts !!
Look at the 12 O'Clock position it appears they were hitting a large structural nut. Now the question, anyone between South Bend and Indianapolis Indiana have the correct size rear carriage bolts so i can get this fixed before 6 Am Monday for the parade / Also what went wrong that these sheared ?? What is the correct length of the rear carriage bolts ?
To allow those bolts to wear off, something serious is probably bad in the differential, like babbit thrust washers..
I would arrange a different ride for the Vets.
You get an A for having your heart in the right place. Don't screw up.
So many issues.
Cannot tell from the photos if the wood spokes are good enough to use or not. The outer end is more critical.
If you do use those spokes, they can be rotated and drilled between the alternate spokes for a better, tighter, fit.
In order to make the parade. Standard bolts (grade 8? 5/16 with an appropriate shank) can be used temporarily. If installed from the inside, leaving the nut (and a lock washer?) on the outside, they are actually stronger than the correct wheel bolts. Some cars did it this way originally back in the day. Wheel bolts you should get from one of the better T parts or wood wheel suppliers only. As previously said, do NOT use common carriage bolts. they are much too soft. Also, any wheel hub bolt should be a rolled thread, NOT a cut thread.
That is a lot of grinding away of bolts. Why did the hub move in? Are the thrust washers inside the rear end okay? Brass? Even if the rear end is good inside, something is wrong. Due to wear, you may need to shim the hub out in addition to other repairs. Shims under the hub are hated by many mechanical purists. They are used by mechanical realists and a lot more other people than want to admit it.
Good luck! But check out that rear end.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
David, that wheel needs to be rebuilt. Even without the bolts the hub should be tight in the wheel. If not the spokes are shot and the bolt holes between the spokes are wallowed out.
Dan, the knock off only works if the wheel is still on the ground and the other side is jacked up.
Yes, forgot to mention that, but once you get the mechanical rational of the cheap knock off nut, most would understand.
That's the reason on that box label to lift the other wheel off.
That knock off is kicking the axle back, with the other wheel off the ground, allows the axles to move within the rear end enough to pop off the stuck wheel hub. Actually, it works at times with the stuck wheel up, but mostly you need the stuck wheel down on the ground for leverage.
I would use a good Ford or KR Wilson type of puller that screws on where the hub cap fits. The knock offs will work, but there is a real good chance to ruin the threads on the axle. I would also not try to hurry the repair. Can you find a good wheel to borrow for the parade.. I would at least look close at the bearings, seals, brake shoes ect before putting it together. You may also need an axle shim to move the hub out if something is hitting. Good luck and be safe ....
Pay attention to what Ralph and Wayne said about the reason for your problem.
I have been down this road and I can give some insight as to the cause. My best guess is old wheels and auxiliary brakes. On my 14 I put aux brakes on the rear of my car and failed to check my hub bolts for looseness due to drying out spokes. Every time I stepped on the brakes the drum would shift a bit, bear on the bolt, which would get cut by the bolt flange on the hub. After 8 miles my left rear wheel and tire passed me up.
If your car has auxiliary brakes keep a close eye on the bolts for looseness and shearing. There are some suppliers that carry heavy duty bolts made by one of the forum members.
David, those nuts have been grinding away on the perch nut. This can mean one or two things.
If you have not replaced the wheel or the axle recently, it is not likely that you have fitted a worn hub to a worn axle and thus the wheel is going onto the axle too far.
A more likely happening is that a thrust washer has collapsed and this will allow the diff centre and axles to move within the housing. You can check this by jacking both back wheels and then you will be able to push the axles in and out of the tubes.
If this is the case the car should not be driven. In the worst case the pinion gear can ride over the ring gear teeth and you will have no transmission brakes.
When re-building any wheels, the correct bolts should be purchased from one of the vendors. Hardware shop bolts are not up to the task.
Hope this helps.
allan from down under.
Why not just pop the rear end apart, install two bronze washers and if the axle is OK, put it back together, put a different wheel on it and go to the parade. It won't take an hour. Jack it up, pull the spring perch and radius rod on the left side, take out three of the pinion carrier bolts and the 7 center section bolts and slide the housing off, pull the assembly out, put a new thrust washer in place on the ring gear side, put a new thrust washer on the left side and put it back together. Surely you have or can borrow a better wheel.
They did this along side the road thousands of times in the day. With modern tools, a shop and an air wrench you can have it apart in ten minutes, fix it in ten and back together in ten. Don't forget to put grease back in it.
Boy, knowledgeable people make terrible jobs sound so easy!!
"It won't take an hour" for you, Stan. You've done it many times before. It might take a few more minutes for us novices.
I am not familiar with Indiana, but I know there are many Model T'rs in that state. Contact a member of the nearest T club to your location. Someone could have a spare wheel or even a spare rear axle assembly to loan or sell you so that you can quickly get your T running and ready for the parade. You might even make a friend with someone who can help you fix it.
The correct fix for your own existing axle is not the quick one, but a methodical check of the entire assembly to find out just what is causing the problem and replacement of all the parts needed to make a good and safe repair. I would recommend the club publication on Rear Axle or Ruckstell Axle. Follow the instructions in the book step by step.
Thanks you all for the information
It seems to be safe do not drive it in mondays parade
I will appreciate areas to study to replace the thrust washers.
I will order the recommended books by Norman Kling
Now at the indy 500
I've been in a zillion parades over the years and most of them run about walking speed. You can do what you want and not do what you believe you are incapable of learning but I would pull the left side housing, pull the axle assembly, replace the babbitt washers with bronze and put it back together. If people would listen to what they are being told about what to do and how to do it it can be EASILY done in a couple hours by the most inept novice. There are a total of less than 20 bolts to take out and put back in. There are two thrust washers to install. Just put a different wheel on it and go to the parade.
The internet is full of methods, photos, parts suppliers, etc. and there are Model T people in every area of the US that would help out.
Probably half of the T's running around the country have rearends worse than that one would be with two new washers in it. I may not even need them.
I don't know why I waste time on here.
If and when you dismantle the rear axle, make sure that the ring gear is on the correct side of the pinion gear, two speed reverse is no fun.
Stan, you input is invaluable, like so many on this forum. Please never think it's a waste of time.
Stan, sadly, much of the wisdom of of the old time T owners has faded. When I first started working on T's, virtually all my advice came from guys who owned Model T's when new or second hand "clunkers" purchased as daily drivers.
Your advice here is refreshingly basic and jolted my thinking back to the fundamentals of "keeping em on the road".
I was in the throws of scrounging up a donor rear end to "lovingly restore" as a 2-3 week project so that I could replace the loose unit in my car...then came your remarks and I suddenly realized...I don't need to restored the Ford's rear end, I need to repair it! And I have time next weekend to do it!
Dang it, Stan, your advice may not appeal to many of the youngsters in the hobby, but it sure put my thinking back on track. Thank You!
John, please give us a breakdown of time for the job.
It would take me 30 minutes looking for the tools, before I gave up and called a friend to borrow one.
I'll be glad to hold the stopwatch and watch you do the r&r on the differential.
Time to order the repair part and gaskets.
Sometimes (most of the time?) I'm a bit slow. Stan, going back and reading again I see what you were saying. Put in new washers for the parade and come back for rebuilding later. Perfectly sensible. Don't let dimwits like me drive you off. We need your experience.
We need you and Stan and several others, you all are wealth of information.
Never hesitate speaking up.
It is sad that so many can only offer up a complete re manufacture of everything to correct the most simple problems. Every bit of advice I've ever seen Stan give are in line with what the young man years ago would have done if he had to use the car the next day to get to work. Not over thought but good solid advice. Even if the job took three times as long as he said, it would be fixed by now.
And as Bill knows, it will be done with only one partially functioning hand! Bill, please bring sandwiches for the mouseketeers...
Ralph, will the hour or so on the phone with Chaffins count as rebuild time?
How do you folks jack and block a T to remove the rear end? I use a forklift, heavy duty (truck) jack-stands with a 2 inch pipe as a crossmember (between the two jack stands). I have to block the front wheels because the pipe is a bit slippery and the car would like to slide forward.
Hey DIMWIT from above, I wish I was as smart as you! I enjoy your postings
Stan keep um coming. One of your posts is worth 100 of mine.
I did the thrust washers in my rear end without taking it out of the car. It took me two days because i had to replace two of the pins that hold the thrust washer.
The ones that were in there were almost completely gone and were ready to fail at any second. I didn't do anything to make sure the replacement washers were the correct thickness except measure the old ones and decide the new ones were somewhat close in thickness.
Everything went together OK and it is still quiet I might have been lucky but it worked.
MY opinions -
1. If you have a T make sure you check the thrust washers -
2. It is always better to safe than sorry.
3. Stan is worth listening to - he has more experience in his little finger than most of us have in our whole body
Hal, you're on the right track except for the pipe. Square tubing won't try to go anywhere.
Very sturdy setup you made there Steve, looks great. BTW how did you make out with your new bands, did it all work out?
They're in and adjusted. I still have to button everything up and try them out. I've been busy with other stuff for a few days.
Great news!...I put mine in but at the same time sent my coils out to be rebuilt so i am sitting here patiently until they arrive so i can try them out. Hope it all works out.
Stan thinks a 2 week job will take an hour. Who still believes in airtools? Those fairytales are of the past. There is nothing but broken shifting spanners and bent screwdrivers, Nothing else is left. (i might sound like a jerk but it is the truth!)
It is possible that the taper on the axle and the taper in the hub are not compatible and allowing the hub to go on too far maby a tapered sleeve/s is all that is required.
David,It seems simple but before it's done everything under the radiator cap will have to be rebuilt!! I wonder how Henry staked those hub bolts when now nothing less than grade 8 will do?? Bud.