Sure-Stop Brakes - Pros & Cons

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Sure-Stop Brakes - Pros & Cons
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Allen on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 11:14 am:

I would welcome a discussion about Sure Stop hydraulic disc brakes for the Model T. I am in the process of putting some on my 1914 runabout, and I could use all the advice I can get. And no, Ben Hardeman isn't much help, besides he sells them!
I would like to hear from the Model T owners out there who are either using them or thinking about getting them.
Thanks for any input,
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 11:59 am:

Best thing I've ever done. I can go anywhere without worrying. Three tours later half a year drive twice a week. No problems. I have. 1925 TT one ton truck Ford. With overdrive. It will lock them up if I want to, I'm in a very hilly area I live . I was able to help Ben make the prototype for me. This is is all top quality will wood racing parts you still keep the brake band in the Trans if you wish

The kit is complete no hassle. Or you Run around making a set up. For a car you can use. Motorcycle flat discs and calipers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

The Sure Stop brakes are an excellent product if you don't mind the appearance. They work wet or dry, forward and reverse, and modulate easily. The stock brake band can remain in place and adjusted to work if there is a hydraulic failure. I have a couple of friends with them who love them and they work great. They are just obviously not era correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 01:03 pm:

I put them on my '24 touring car and feel much safer with them. The kit is high quality and goes on as it should. I put the reservoir under the drivers seat; easy to check, but out of sight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 01:17 pm:

One thing that folks need to be looking at whether running disc, Rockies, A/C, Bennett's, or whatever is the radius rods. Brakes place a load on the radius rod that it wasn't designed for. I have seen two with cracks and these were not on cars that had brakes. Brakes will increase the chance of cracks.

Don't get me wrong, brakes are a great idea, like everything else, they are not an install and forget deal. Just keep an eye on your radius rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 01:18 pm:

I give them an A+. I've installed 2 sets of my own and helped Gary W put a set on his. No real problems, just questions for Ben and I found email to work best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

I guess the term "period correct" is used quite frequently. Then I wonder, if hydraulic disc brakes were available, during "the period" would people have bought them rather than all the others that were available? I bet the people back then would have bought them, and then they would be "period correct"

But then I was born in 1951, so I guess I am not "period correct" either. Where does it all start and end?????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 03:43 pm:

Just thought I'd mention that hydraulic brakes only advantage is they are self-equalizing. Rolls Royce stuck with mechanical brakes into at least the 50s, and then only put hydraulics on the front wheels. Of course, RR used a driven disk off the transmission to power the brake rods, so pedal pressure was not too difficult (very clever, but somewhat complex arrangement; but very reliable too) The faster you were going, the more braking power was applied.
My problem with hydraulic systems on cars that sit for long periods is the fluid seal failures. I've got cars that the brakes are bad on, that were fine when I parked them, but the mechanical braked cars still have brakes as good as when I parked them!
If you drive your car once a week or more, no problem! Hmmm. . . excuse to drive car more often. . .
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Spies - Ft. Walton Bch,FL on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 04:45 pm:

Another thumbs up for the disk brakes. Went on easy and work great. Took a little time when initially bleeding them which I blame the detached reservoir. It takes time for the fluid to drip down into the MC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 05:08 pm:

I accept it's a great product that works. But it's ugly. Won't put any on my Ford, but you can on yours if you want to ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 05:11 pm:

I don't think I would put them on a brass era car, but I'm planning to add them to both my '25 Touring and '26 TT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 05:58 pm:

If you drive a T like it was designed to be driven you certainly don't need hydraulic brakes. I drove a '12 recently that has the disc brakes and they certainly work but they are ugly despite all the effort to make them less noticeable. I'd rather drive a bit slower and keep things stock or use the more period correct AC or Rocky Mtn. Brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 06:38 pm:

Yeah, they'll look MUCH more period correct on 20's models than on brass era cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 06:48 pm:

Can you still call it a Model T after such an ugly modification? If the stock brakes aren't good enough then maybe you should sell your classic original and buy something faster. And what's this talk about such a mod being ok for a black era car but not a brass one? Some of us have much higher regard for the black cars than the brass ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 08:22 pm:

Jon, What kind of installation problem are you having? It seems everyone else who posted, had no problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

How difficult would it be (and how effective could the brakes be) if you hid them inside the drum? Perhaps there is a way to remove the emergency brake setup, then weld a smaller rotor to the inside of the drum. You could use the radius rod bolts as mounting points for the caliper inside. Obviously the whole caliper and rotor would be smaller, but perhaps could be plenty effective? The actual brake line could be run into the caliper through the brake cam hole. There might even be a way to retain the emergency brake rods and use a sort of cam actuation so that you still keep the parking/emergency braking capability and even the original look. The only give away would be a small black hose running from the cam hole to either the spring or the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 09:11 pm:

On an early car, the disc brakes are simply more noticeable. The shiny metal rotors stand out more as an obvious mismatch to the brass, and the thinner oval spokes make it so you see a lot more of it. Most later cars have the silver demountable rims to draw the eye away from the rotors, and the color matches the nickel hubcaps. Spare tires mounted to the rear of the car, and fenders that curve down behind the tire all help to draw the eye away from the brakes. They also have thicker spokes that cover more of it, and make it all far less noticeable.

Besides all that, if it's my car I'll do with it as I please... couldn't care less if some guy on a computer 850 miles away doesn't approve. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

I installed them on my 26 Sedan and love the stopping power I have. But like what someone in another post mentioned, don't get over confident. It is still a T. If you don't keep thinking about it you will get used to the stopping power and then you will "or at least I will" start driving it like your other cars. It still just a T.

I had absolutely No problem installing mine in just half a day by myself. Not counting the day before, thinking about my steps, procedures and getting what tools I was going to use ready for the job.

You should have no problems and enjoy the stopping. Love mine but I will agree they are not attractive but that also brings on a lot of questions from the ones who notices them "which is most everyone".
Chet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

Yep, they are ugly, for sure.

But, when there is a tour, and it's raining, 2 granddaughters riding along, and the tour has a steep downhill route with 14 hairpin turns to negotiate, the disc breaks start looking pretty. Safety first! Then looks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 10:58 pm:

I have them on both cars, the first set came from Bill Tharp the designer and the second from TTP i had a leaking caliper under pressure and Ben replaced it in two days, there are six sets in our T group and they are needed in this hilly country. My wife wouldn't get in my 24 until i put the Sure Stop brakes on.The service from Ben is very good but he is gone a lot these days.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stauffacher on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 11:56 pm:

Adding these brakes to my T was the wisest thing I ever did! It would be hard to imagine an easier way to greatly improve the stopping power in a Model T which translate into improved safety! I had RM but in the rain and going backwards there were ineffective. I still drive my T like a T but in modern traffic you never know when you must make an emergency stop. 80 year old brake technology I find totally inadequate in today's world. I build my T to drive and now show so the "not period" correct argument had no bearing in my decision.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:02 am:

I am glad someone started to mention how out of place they look on a T. Yes, they are less noticeable on the later T's. I don't understand why they were made SO BIG. they would certainly be adequate with a much smaller rotor.

I disagree with comments that a T doesn't need accessory brakes. That may be true with a totally stock car without an aux tranny. I could lock up my rears with the stock brake when it was perfectly adjusted.

With more guys adding aux trannys an accessory brake is a must.

The weak link of the rear brakes is that they are on the rear of the car.

I think I can stop within a shorter distance with my four wheel period correct outside accessory brakes (Bennetts - Rear and McNearny/Big Four - Front) than the rear disc brake car. Sometime I'd like to try if anyone is interested.

The aftermarket setup that I really like is the Nash/Metro. Ralph Ricks has those on his and you know one reason for the seat belts, but that's another topic.

With an early brass car I opted not to use the hydraulic's but my choice would have been the Metros.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:37 am:

Here in South Australia we cannot fit modern equipment to our cars which was not available at the time of manufacture, or we lose the concessional registration we enjoy on our historic cars. To fit disc brake we would have o be prepared to pay the full registration fees, some $500 or so.

Besides, they really are ugly!

Just my opinion.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:57 am:

Gary T., why would accessory brakes put any more load on the radius rods? The torque tube takes all of the twisting stress on the rearend, the radius rods just keep the rearend centered in the car. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 05:48 am:

Problem I have with rear disc brakes no matter where or what they came from is what happens on a crowned road during a panic stop. Are you good enough under those conditions to modulate the pedal? When both rear tires lock under that condition, which way is the rear end going to slide? I have no problem with 4 wheel brakes installed safely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 06:32 am:

I for one prefer to operate an antique vehicle within the constraints of it's original design.

For instance, Ruckstell axles often make sloppy/lazy drivers of their owners. On the National Tour in So. Dakota, I can't tell you the times I was behind someone who was chattering to their passengers and approached a hill at a "non-T speed". As we all lost momentum, the ruckstell folks simply shifted to low range and pulled away...and I ended up prematurely in low gear holding up a bunch of angry Ruckstell owners who had no patience for a stock T.

I am going to bet, now that hydraulic brakes are coming into vogue, that there will be more and more sloppy/lazy drivers who care not and in the future may no not how a stock T stops, and will become a hazard on Tours. As it is, many folks with Rockies, etc., will now decend hills at dangerous speeds "knowing" that they can stop when they want. Hydraulic brakes will make it possible to stop nearly anywhere for any reason (take pictures? Chat? What a view!) to the complete detriment of drivers with stock T's who wouldn't/couldn't stop there on a bet...With utmost respect to Bill, personally, if I was on tour with grandchildren, it was raining, and there were a dozen hairpin turns on a steep hill, I would not say that "Safety First" was having hydraulic brakes...I'd say that Safety First would be to sit that day out (if the toughness of the route relative to the conditions was not made clear by the organizer beforehand, then shame on them).

I'll wager that hydraulic brakes will eventually cause a wreck on tour and possibly kill someone, and furthermore, that it won't be the owner with the hydraulic brakes.

I joined the national clubs to be equally-yoked with other T drivers when touring, not having resto-mods dodging and darting around me. I'm finding that fewer and fewer tour cars are original, and find that original cars are more and more at risk of being run down by high-horsepower cars and imperiled by quick-stopping cars whose ability to stop far exceeds the original...and who will be at fault when someone plows into a car that is equipped with hydraulic brakes and the owner is driving it like his Toyota?

I am finding more and more, that it is (unfortunately) more fun and safer to travel in small groups or by myself, and that's a shame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:56 am:

Scott- I did not post to get bashed. OUCH! Thanks. Incidently, the route was changed during the night so as to bypass the wet hairpin descent.

Regardless of which type brakes a driver prefers, common sense must prevail while driving....or following.

My brakes were installed to be ready on the next wet event that comes along. We have 3 more very hilly, mountainous tours planned this summer and any route can become wet at any time. And that's a fact.

As a side note, our last club tour had 14 cars entered. 13 had some type of aux brake system. The T driver w/o aux brakes had to pull off the road and adjust his bands. A few weeks later, he is now running auxiliary brakes, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 09:55 am:

Well thought out and well said Scott!! People can do whatever they want with their t"s but The Old Car Festival is a NO for disc brakes! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:40 am:

I'm not into this but it seems one of the main objections (understandable) is the appearance. Question: Is there a hydraulic type system being made that uses a rear drum set-up? Modern style drum with self energizing shoes. You probably wouldn't mind modern drums at all as the look is so similar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Allen on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:42 am:

Ok, it sounds like the mechanical evaluation on Sure-Stops is very positive. Good, because I am putting them on my car (a '14 runabout w/ MacLaren Wire wheels), and I just wanted some feedback. I am down to the bleeding the brakes part, and that seems to have a few problems with this installation. One problem with these is that the calipers are mounted on an angle where it is very difficult to get all the air out of the piston bores. They recommend loosening the calipers and turning them so the flow of fluid and air is straight up. I will do this if it is necessary. Has anyone tried it w/o positioning them vertically?
There seems to be about as many ways to bleed brakes as there are people doing it...
Vacuum pumps, pressure pumps, 2 people doing it, one person doing it, etc.
The thing I am going to try is something called a "Speed Bleeder". It is a bleeder valve with a one-way check valve in it.
See this:
http://www.speedbleeder.com/
I have replaced the top Bleeder valves with a set of these from Car Quest (~$15/pair). I will try bleeding the system today.
Has anyone tried these???
They look so simple that if they work why would anyone do anything more complicated?
Let me know your thoughts or experiences.
Thanks,
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:57 am:

Any brake system that can lock up the rear wheels, is safest on a vehicle with steel wire or disc wheels. Locking up the rear wheels on a vehicle with wood spoke wheels is going to put a lot of strain on the wood spokes and if they don't fail the first time; they're likely to at some point in the future. I don't want, or need, that problem and expense, so even though I have them on my 26 sedan 'driver' car (with wood spoke wheels), they are there for extreme emergencies. If I ever have to lock up the rear wheels; it had better be to save my life; rather than just showing someone how good of brakes that I have on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hobart Akin louisville, TN on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:06 pm:

I am building a vintage camper to pull with a 1914 model t. I have recently installed a set of disc brakes after using Rocky Mountain Brakes for years. My concern is that with the increased weight of the camper I might not be able to hold the t on a incline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:13 pm:

Jon - FWIW, when I bled my brakes I simply loosened the calipers and moved them more or less vertical and they bled fine using the standard pedal pump bleeding procedure. I put a block of steel between the pads the same thickness as the disc when doing this to keep the pads in position. No special bleeder was needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:29 pm:

"I installed them on my 26 Sedan....

...but I will agree they are not attractive but that also brings on a lot of questions from the ones who notices them "which is most everyone"."

So much for the 'not being as noticeable on later models' theory.

Terry, my TT and my wife's Touring will both skid the tires with stock brakes and wood spokes. Not that I recommend such driving, but past panic stops have resulted in such.

No doubt auxiliary brakes are a safe addition in the case of drivetrain failure, but in the absence of ABS, locking them up is locking them up. I can lock'em up already. Until I have drivetrain failure, mine are as good as any other rear wheel brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:35 pm:

I said less noticeable, not invisible. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:40 pm:

Bill, I prefaced with "With utmost respect to Bill..."

It was not meant to bash you at all. I am very sorry that you took offense.

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 12:57 pm:

Excellent post Scott. It's easy to get caught up in modifying something that doesn't work too well using parts that are gleefully supplied by aftermarket companies who will sell anything that can attach to a T. At some point, it is no longer a Ford Model T. I wonder how many of these "T" owners are more interested in driving a radiator than a historic vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 01:26 pm:

The first part of a T I learned is they don't stop safely in an emergency stop.
So after some study I built rear disc brakes using motorcycle rotors welded to T drums and motorcycle calipers. The stock 26 brake band is left in and used. The rotors are 10 7/8 in diameter and not offensive to me anyway.

In the fifteen years of use only a few times they have locked up and they work in reverse. I cant tell you how many times I was damn happy to have them.

Locking a brake is a poor way to stop. Brakes work best before a skid before locking them up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 01:40 pm:

If I lived in an area where the population was 5 people per square mile, I'd be happy to stay with stock Model T brakes. Many of us find ourselves in less wonderful traffic conditions. I do my best to drive defensively and pick my routes but I can't control the rest of the cars or avoid all potential congestion and I have no desire to move to Kansas. As such, I prefer better braking options. Can I lock up the rear wheels with the standard T brakes? Yes, unless of course my Ruckstell or aux trans manage to find angel gear. My first choice is drum brakes because they are less conspicuous but I understand the advantages of the disk brakes that are a readily available kit.

And Scott - I prefer to travel by myself or in small groups of similarly capable cars but should we end up on the same tour, I won't hold you up approaching or on a hill and I hope that everyone will follow all traffic, vintage or not with an understanding of their brakes rather than assuming that the car ahead has bad brakes so they need not worry about theirs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 01:44 pm:

Bleeding rear disc brakes is easy. The bleed valve has to be at the top. Two bolts are removed caliper pulled off turned with the bleed at the top and pump the master once or twice. Wait a minuet or two while brake fluid runs down the lines pushing the air out! Just keep the master with enough fluid to fill the lines. Close the bleed valve when the air bubbles are gone, and bolt the caliper back on.
Another possible advantage is the caliper holds the rear wheel on if an axle breaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:17 pm:

I should take some pictures of the road up the hill by the court house in Astoria. Then take another from the top looking down. Its about a mile with two heavy travel cross roads near the bottom and the Columbia river a block further down. Guess its between a 1000 and 1500 foot drop straight to the river!!
My touring has been up and down that hill many times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:46 pm:

Scott, I am glad you clarified that with Bill Robinson...I was on his Tour in Alabama and have great respect for him. When the rain came that night, he with others went and drove the route they had planned the next day and changed it due the hairpins and steep down hills for the Safety of others...In his own words "It is all about keeping everyone as Safe as possible....

Bill, please keep me informed when ever you put on another Tour and if at all possible Pat and I will be there.....She still talks about all the fun we had....

Take Care
Chet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:49 pm:

If you run into the car in front of you it is not because it has hydraulic brakes and you don't. It is because you are not driving within the limitations of your own brakes. Basically, being stupid. What's next, blaming the guy you are following in his Porsche because you couldn't go around the curve as fast as him? I have model T's from bone stock all original to a hill climb rail job that only the block and frame are T parts, and many something in between. I drive each according to its capabilities and design. Driving safely, no matter what you are driving, we can all agree is the key. High performance cars do not cause accidents, it's the low performance drivers. Be safe.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 02:56 pm:

So Erik you're saying the problem is usually the loose nut behind the wheel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 03:01 pm:

Hal, I, once, had a 16 touring that had the added weight of a cast iron Warford and a Ruxtell, and the E brake would lock up the wheels on it, even with the stock cast iron shoes. Almost any T with good adjusted brakes will do it, but its good to have the discs on a driver so you don't have to depend on the trans and stock E brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 03:19 pm:

Well said Erik! I think the rain has finally went somewhere its time to enjoy my T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 03:44 pm:

All his talk about driving the T "as it is supposed to be driven" is all well and good. I try to do that as much as possible, but I have not yet figured out how to make other drivers on the road drive in a like manner. Yesterday I was driving at the posted 35mph in the left lane when an idiot passed me in the right lane and immediately cut across in front of me to get into the center 2-way-turn lane. At the same time someone coming the other way turned into that turning lane, so the idiot in front of me slams on the brakes AND stays in my lane. Had it not been for my "ugly" disk brakes my car would have become an "ugly" wreck.
What is so beautiful about a wrecked "period correct" Model T ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 04:23 pm:

I would like to laugh but its not funny Robert it has happened to me many times. Damn rain started again. Guess some one up stairs wants me to stay home.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 04:41 pm:

Yeah Seth, lots of loose nuts out there. Bob makes a good point about others not being aware that T's can't move or stop as well as they can. All the more reason to keep on your toes and drive defensively. Hope the rain lets up for Paul.
Fordially, Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 04:54 pm:

Paul:

SEND RAIN!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 05:19 pm:

Like to Ralph, the Columbia is full of it. California needs it and most around here are tired of it. Think my lawn grows an inch a day. With 80k square feet of lawn my riders are wearing out.
Daughter in Clear Lake said its dry, dry, dry!
Great to see you posting!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 05:38 pm:

Bulldogs sure are ugly but everyone loves them because they are so cute, love my homemade disks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 06:50 pm:

David Stroud

I should have stated there is increase stress on the torque tube and radius rods. The radius rods however are pretty thin and often pitted. The reason there is increased stress on these over stock is accessory brakes are capable of slowing at a quicker rate. Very often the pinion spool is found cracked during a rear axle rebuild. If a wet cotton band running in oil (stock system) can cause that part to crack it should be understood that a brake system capable of dissapating more energy would be more susceptible to an increased probability of findings. If the torque tube and pinion spool yield any at all (and they do) the radius rods take up the added stress from torque being applied.

I'm not saying not to use them, only to add to your normal maintenance a visual inspection of those parts from time to time. I have Rockies on my car and plan to upgrade to disc. I however plan to inspect them.

Not everyone that reads this will agree, I'm only putting it out their for discussion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:05 pm:

Nice Randall!! A bit heftier then my motorcycle parts. Looks like the diameter of the rotor is not far from the 10 7/8" of mine. The width of the caliper is much wider. Looks like one large piston on the caliper mine has two smaller ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:33 pm:

I wonder how much extra weight these brakes add? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:33 pm:

I have Rocky Mountains on my 1913 T and they work fine for me. I wouldn't put discs on my T because to my eyes they look so out of place. I accept they will work better than stock but the millage I do and the traffic density where I live probably doesn't justify them

On my 1910 Hupmobile I have converted the mechanical brakes to hydraulic (drums not discs) but have gone to great trouble to ensure that the conversion is very well hidden and I suspect 90% of people wouldn't notice what has been done unless they spent a lot of time looking at the car. Prior to conversion the Hup brakes were truly horrible ! However better brakes but more stress on other parts and as suggested regular inspection is important.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:57 pm:

I cant tell you weight on Randall's brakes Kenneth. The parts I used are very light motorcycle parts guess both sides would be under twenty pounds complete.

One thing I have noticed is some rivets holding the backing plate to the axle housing are seeping a small amount of oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 07:57 pm:

To each his own. I may one day install auxiliary brakes, but they will be Rocky Mountains or AC's. Disc brakes are just plain butt ugly to me and more out of place than an alternator. At least with an alternator, there is a hood between you and it. I'll quit driving the T and put it in a museum before I put disc brakes on one. Sorry guys, I don't get it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:30 pm:

Butt ugly home made discs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

I understand there are 'purist' restorers who would never 'deface or disgrace' a T with disc brakes. I would never install them on my Grandfather's 27 coupe, either, even though I don't consider it perfect enough to be entered in judging. Some people value safety over authenticity for a daily driver or tour car and don't have any intention of having their car "judged" officially or criticized by other people. It is up to an individual to decide how authentic they want their T to be. If anyone wants to criticize my disc brakes, I'll offer to show them my Simmons high compression head, a B intake, exhaust manifold and carb, an alternator, and cable type throttle linkage to the B carb on my sedan, and I don't care if they like it or not. Its my car and not their's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:17 pm:

Even I am starting to warm up a little bit to Rocky Mountain brakes. At least they look old and would even appear original to the general public. If I lived in a really hilly area, I bet I would cave in and run them myself but, disc brakes are something other. I only once saw them on a T in person. I was horrified, absolutely mortified and speechless. Pictures don't do them any justice. You have to see them in person for the full effect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:21 pm:

Dave,No thanks!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:29 pm:

Scott,it won't be the brakes,it will be the one behind the wheel!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:38 pm:

If you don't like them ,don't buy them but don't badmouth or critisize the people who do use them or try to diminish the fact that someone made a decision to install something new on their car. I had Rocky Mountain brakes on my 26 but after having them fail on a very steep hill, backward and fading badly on a steep hill forward, i decided there had to be something better, so i had no external brakes for several months until Bill Tharp came out with the disc brakes, i think Rocky and Bennett and AC are all ugly. Just my take.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:51 pm:

If you can slide the rear wheels with drum brakes, how can you think disc brakes will stop you sooner.
When I pull my hand brake lever back and apply my Dodge D-50 rear brakes the cars stops just as short as it does when I hit the hydraulic pedal.
Now you are telling me disc brakes would stop it even quicker.
If you think your hydraulic discs are stopping you quicker than a good set of drum brakes are fooling yourself.
Try stopping going down s steep hill, in the rain, on new blacktop, with only you in the car.
Your hydraulic discs, even with a power booster will just slide the wheels, same as drum brakes with internal expanding shoes.
If you NEED to be safe you NEED front wheel brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:36 pm:

No doubt your D-50 brakes are more than sufficient. Only potential advantage of disks over your drums is the potential of being more effective when wet (the braking surface, not just the road). I like my Metro drums but if they get wet, they take just a bit to dry out. Granted, it takes effort to get them that wet.

Folks here are talking about locking up the wheels, next to insufficient braking force, lock ups are the worst braking condition - lack of both effectiveness and control. I find both hydraulic disc and drum brakes easy to modulate to limit lock ups but still get the most braking effect. Lock ups indicate bad brakes or bad technique.

Certainly 4 wheel brakes will be the most effective over any two wheel brake setup. Of course those who get offended by hydraulic brakes are really going to get apoplectic when they see 4 wheel hydraulic drum or heaven forbid 4 wheel disc brakes. I use 4 wheel Metro brakes on my speedster and those who don't like them don't need to look. I certainly won't lose any sleep over their opinion and will feel free to tell them so if they persist in telling me I'm wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 12:12 am:

I don't think it is all about being able to slide the back two tires. When I finally got my T back together and read all the advice on proper driving, such as pumping the brakes so not to over heat the drum, pull back on the parking brake and when all fails push all three pedals and pray. Maybe all that is exciting to get to the bottom of a very steep hill and saying damn we made it! I prefer slitely applying my brakes and controlling the speed I feel most comfortable and safe traveling. Not to mention all the fools that dart in front of you only to slam on their brakes. You can't leave adequate space to be safe. I know a lot of you will disagree and I am ok with the disagreement. Most of you are better mechanics and better drivers And I respect that. But I love my T and really enjoy driving it. More so than my 40k dollar Studebaker. So don't be to hard on us about the disc. I have them on front and rear of the Study but it is a street rod...Chet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Elliott on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 01:07 am:

Wait tell you see my new cable operated disc brake calipers on a open Speedster I'm building . The front discs.to the T Cables off of a pocket Rocket motorcycle , why not cheap lite weight, for the front hubs and cable operated and maybe or more hand operated. Creativity was in the past and the now


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:08 am:

If you can slide the rear wheels with drum brakes, how can you think disc brakes will stop you sooner.
When I pull my hand brake lever back and apply my Dodge D-50 rear brakes the cars stops just as short as it does when I hit the hydraulic pedal.
Now you are telling me disc brakes would stop it even quicker.
If you think your hydraulic discs are stopping you quicker than a good set of drum brakes are fooling yourself.
Try stopping going down s steep hill, in the rain, on new blacktop, with only you in the car.
Your hydraulic discs, even with a power booster will just slide the wheels, same as drum brakes with internal expanding shoes.
If you NEED to be safe you NEED front wheel brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:32 am:

Sorry 'bout the double posting.

It was my understanding that cars continued on with drums at the rear because discs did not hold well when wet. power boosters helped overcome that problem so they eventually went to 4 wheel discs.
When the shoes are inside the drum how are they gonna get wet unless you run through deep water?
I have had my D-50 brakes on my '26 touring since 1997 and have driven in very heavy rain storms and through standing water along the side of the road and have never noticed a reduction in braking efficiency.

My point is that discs are not going to stop a T any better than a good set of drums, although discs are less likely to give you brake fade from excessive heat.
If you can honestly claim you are getting brake fade from a good set of drums then I have no argument with you about disc brakes.
If that is the case you are not installing discs for that sudden emergency that may come up some day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 07:43 am:

I don't believe there is a person on here that is stupid enough to think the best braking is when you are sliding. We all know that braking is best somewhere in between no brakes and fully locked up (Although closer to the latter than the former). The fully locked up description is just a means of showing that the brakes are capable of the full range. If someone has a better way to word it so that we know that the brakes are capable of the full gamut of operation without implying we think skidding is better than hard braking, then I'm all ears.

My opinion (And it is just that and worth exactly what you paid for it): If I had regular T brakes, plus Rock Mountain brakes and I had brake fade, I'd be finding a lower gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 07:49 am:

BTW, I will admit to being the dreaded "Purist". However, it has nothing to do with showing the car. Yeah, I do go to the occasional local show, but neither of our T's are even restored, much less show cars. The "Purist" mentality is just a principle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 08:17 am:

Discs were installed for two reasons on my touring.

First-- is I have a vintage Mark E with out syncros unlike the new Lane box you can pull into gear while moving.
If your vintage over and under pops out of gear you have no brakes and are unlikely to get it back in gear. Folks have died over that one.

Second-- By T rear end design the discs worked well for installation, are light in weight, work in reverse, cheap parts, salt water resistant self adjusting and the caliper holds the wheel on.

Drum brakes work well but trying to incorporate them on a T rear end was more then I cared to get into.

You can see by the grime on the brake not much attention is needed. Once the rotor to spoke bolts were tightened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 08:25 am:

Being a flatlander i have few places to doubt my stock brakes.Being a semi driver in the fall reminds me i need to manage my space so i'm ok no matter what other drivers do.I like the freedom to drive with no seat belts.I like to talk to people espc kids and explain my T and tell about the times.I like The Old Car Festival in the fall,and any trip that takes my Grand kids.I think the term [purist] as used here is often used as a durogatory term by those who are unable or not willing to try for something more org,same as trailer queen.So you do whatever you want and i will do as i wish with my T. One thing shure,my T will never be seen as a pimp my ride pice of plastic!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis K Anderson on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 01:13 pm:

Hey man I see you did not stop in time.
Yes but look how pretty my brake is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Linsenbarth on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:12 pm:

Here's some front disc w/speedo gear, and rear drum brakes W/emergency/park brakes.










Charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:16 pm:

Charley there are a lot of cool things on that yellow T, but I think the speedo-gear-but-it's-also-the-brake-rotor is probably the coolest thing I've seen on a T in a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:20 pm:

Kenneth
I did drive Semis for a while, but when you are following all the rules, doing 35 in a 35 mile zone and some one pulls in front of you and SLAMS there breaks because they see a caution light its hard to stop. I locked them up and customized her new car (4 door with trunk lid against the front seat) there is nothing you can do, oh I was a little over 80000 lbs at the time.
It didn't bother me a bit she didn't speak English. Put on the breaks that make you feel comfortable with and have fun. The only thing wrong with the breaks you put on your T is what other people will say, O well.

Bob
PS had her attorney contact me within two hrs.
and he didn't speak much better English, they didn't get a dime either just a ticket for incorrect lane change.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:28 pm:

Charlie - What rear brakes are those? That's a very clean installation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:37 pm:

Hey Walt, check this thread out. Those are brakes and drums from a '93 Nissan.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/361135.html?1376104952


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:55 pm:

Nice Charles. My frugal way for a speedo drive is going to be a GPS. The 16 roadster pickup will have the original tool box used as a step stool left in and a vintage Doctors bag holding the battery on the running board. The bailing wire holding a splash apron to the running board will also be left. Dash board made from fir had a floor dimmer switch mounted in it. all will be left as found except the engine and transmission.16 T roadster16 T roadster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 03:03 pm:

Seth - Thanks, exactly what I needed and had seen before but forgotten where it was and what the thread was.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 11:31 pm:

Oh give me a home
where only Model T's roam

And how happy I'll be
to drive my stock T

But be that it may
I jump in the fray

Of a modern car world
With drivers that are "squirrled"

They zig and they zag
and play bumper tag

I stay out of the way
with disc brakes all the way.

With nary a skid
smooth braking I did

Do what you will
your car in a spill

Safety for me
and my family


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:02 am:

Wow!..I never realized how divisive this disc brake conversion conversation was. I as a newbie to T's will have to side with the purists only for the fact that i knew what i was in for when i bought my first T. I have my modern muscle cars with tons of hp and 4 wheel discs and abs if i feel the need for speed. I bought this car because i knew it was exactly the opposite, an historic car that was meant to be driven like it was when the first person who owned, drove it. I added R/M because we do drive in a world full of idiots to be sure, but i feel that i am as close to the oldest owner as i can safely be...Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karl Gilchrist on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 05:58 am:

When you start mixing Model T's with modern cars (and drivers) Safety is not some thing that springs to mind. There are hundreds of design features of the original model T which makes driving the T challenging in modern conditions-the braking system is just one. In my opinion if you try and mitigate these design features by redesigning the car you loose a lot of the T's character - probably cheaper just to buy a Volvo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:32 am:

John,

I had no idea how many people out there were fans of the disc brakes. Frankly, I find it alarming and disheartening. I'd like to think these are purely bolt on and the damage is reversible.:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:03 am:

Hal - you just use a modified drum and the caliper bolts on. I don't think there's anything permanent or irreversible about any part of the process. I guess you could weld the rotors to original drums and that might be tough to reverse, but that's about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:10 am:

The only modification to the car is a small tab welded on the brake pedal. Everything else is bolt on. I have disc brakes and kept all the original parts. It would take about 30 minutes to put it all back to original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:11 am:

While there is no question that discs are safer and that they also ruin the look of an historic vehicle, I still think we need to analyze what motivated people to alter their cars in the first place. Did they want a vintage car and later felt it was worth damaging the originality in exchange for a bit more safety? Did they look through the Lang's or Mac's catalogs and get caught up in the they make "improvements" for my car so it must be better syndrome or was modernization the plan from day one because they simply want to be seen driving a radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 09:11 am:

Gee, I like this disc brake system, it would let me go faster and stop quicker, well maybe not that fast so lets fit a pinto engine or a small V8 and some discs to the front and that's moving man, no the wheels don't match the idea so lets fit 10" mags with heaps of surface contact so now I have a car or is it a hot rod, er sorry its a rat rod. Come on guys, were dose it stop as this is a vintage car club and we are here for the love of the car as it was made and not let make our cars into modern times, like buy a Volvo or Mustang if you want speed and disc brakes but this will end that lovely Sunday drive in a old car. Please don't give me the answer that it stops better as you only have 4"x2" road contact and once the traction is broken short of a boat anchor nothing will stop you. I can lock the rear wheels on my standard 13 T and then slide another 4feet on a tarred road with the foot brake. Is it the fact that you want to go faster and keep up with modern cars on the road so this is you way of crash protection. Give me a standard car any day over some thing that is modernized and I am sure it would reflect in the resale price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Linsenbarth on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 09:16 am:

My view is if you want to drive and enjoy your T it needs to fit in your life style, no matter what that might be, some people only have so much time to spend driving their T, others can spend days driving their modern family car around while looking for just the perfect, safe, no traffic route to take their T out in alone, but if I had a T, I'd like to take someone along for the drive, because in the end it's the people that count not the car.
By the way you might say, I started building my T, got a grill and spark plug so far, but it's a start.
Charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 09:38 am:

Buy a small motorcycle. Drive it around a bit and realize how many people never see you or look for you. Then get in your T and see how much safer you feel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:01 am:

About once a year you hear of a T driver who believed it was not a good idea to improve his brakes in todays traffic. Then lost his bride or himself for that thinking. Discs are just one way I choose to make my driver work many percent better then stock. Mine almost are unseen without crawling under the T and easy to remove. With available brake drums probably the only major part modified.
The issue reminds me of trying to talk to a friend who believes he is just fine going to drive home with a little to much to drink!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:03 am:

Charles L: while I like the ingenuity involved with your front discs I absolutely love the rear drum set-up. It's exactly what I had in mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:15 am:

I suspect a lot of Ts are never driven because the owners have had a scary close call for lack of brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:46 am:

Seen that many times Ralph. My nearest driver friend is an hour and a half away by modern car with three Ts I know of near me.
Some T folks would look down at my 16 that will be left like it was except for being a good driver. Its more original then many Ts and average folks will see what was used a hundred years past.
Still wet here! bring your bucket and take it home!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 11:24 am:

Yup,After 100 plus years the Old T's running board is still a great place to preach from!! It's also nice being equated to a drunk because you drive org?? Please keep a close eye on us as we might not be up to your standards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Linsenbarth on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 11:24 am:

The Brakes were designed and built by Don Sable, I just painted them to look pretty that's what I do.
Charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:23 pm:

Perhaps we need a "Stock T'ers Anonymous" so we can learn to have better judgment and not endanger the lives of ourselves and others. Gee, I don't think I could make it through step one and admit I have a problem.:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:35 pm:

At least we have one safe haven, The Old Car Festival where disc brakes are NOT welcome!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:35 pm:

I am not your enemy because of my use of disc brakes or being totally original. I very much admire folks who take the time effort and green for that. But, Rockies or any other improved system only has to be needed one time for saving a life. That's what is important to me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:44 pm:

Hey, you're the one who likened driving the stock set up to DUI.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:45 pm:

Oh I've got nothing against you Paul. Just the brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 01:05 pm:

Sorry Hal or anyone else I offended, that was a poor comparison on my part. I meant it to mean some think they are bullet proof and nothing will happen with there ability--- Just like some one with to much to drink.
My apology again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 01:12 pm:

Maybe it's time for this one again. If you don't like my basic numbers, plug in your own, and let us see what you get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 01:48 pm:

My comments will not change any of the "real T owners" I am sure. Other than just a friendly exchange of opinions about what you think they look like, ugly or whatever, I must add: If you haven't driven a T with rear disc brakes, you really don't know the advantages. Locking up the brakes is not braking, it's sliding. Controlled braking, that is more easily achieved with disc brakes, is the advantage. I don't drive my car any different than I did before disc brakes. I don't drive fast. I don't ignore all that added stress on spokes, radius rods, and axles. I probably drive it just like you do: Like it doesn't have brakes. (Best advice I ever got when learning how to drive it.) But I do have disc brakes that lessen stress on all of the drive train component from the engine all the way back to the wheels. I do have brakes that will help keep me out of harms way, when that modern driver pulls out or stops in front of me, not knowing my car is not like his. I will sacrifice some spokes or other component, but hopefully I won't have to sacrifice my self or passengers safety just to say "it's all original"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 02:58 pm:

Braking force on spokes is nothing compared to side force in a turn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 03:55 pm:

Michael, there can be little said against the mechanical abilities and safety advantages of disc brakes. What has not been explained and leaves many of us baffled, is why any of these disc brake fans chose to own a '10s or '20s car in the first place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jamie Neilson on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 04:25 pm:

I've noticed that every tourist carriage/Hanson/ in use whether Central Park NYC or European city seem to have disc brake conversions - and they're only 1 or 2 horse power. Of course they could be subject to local by laws or ordinances but nobody seems to mind. I say it's your car, do what you want, just please don't drill any extra holes for the next owner...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 04:29 pm:

Michael, You, I, and others who value safety over originality, are not going to 'convert' the purists, so "to each his own". "Live and let live". If you don't mind modifying your car. Fine. Others should not criticize. If a purist thinks his T should be virgin O.E.M., then that's their choice and opinion. Its their T to restore as they wish. On the other hand, our cars are ours to modify as we wish. To All who have posted, Its time to end this Shouting match. Put it to rest. The question to modify or not to modify wasn't the original question. The original question was, "if you're going to install disc brakes, what are the pros and cons, It appeared that Jon Allen had already purchased the disc brake kit. He wasn't asking, "Should I purchase a disc brake kit?" Enough said!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 04:37 pm:

Well said, Terry.

I don't owe the next owner anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 05:47 pm:

I think my question is related to the original post. The originality issue is one of the "cons" of installing disc brakes and it might be helpful to the original poster to hear such opinions. What if he decides he wants to go to the Old Car Festival and finds out at the last minute that his car is not welcome? This Ford Motor Company sponsored event allows the most radical of speedsters which Ford did not build but, if you show up in 1909 Model T serial # 1 with disc brakes, you will find yourself on the outside looking in so, there must be something wrong with discs on a T which reminds me, where do the disc people draw the line on which car they install them on? 1909s? Centerdoor Sedans? Delivery Cars? How about two lever, two pedal cars? Just think, you could rig the second lever so it operates front discs. My questions have not been answered. Perhaps they can't be and I will be left wondering. That's ok. It's just questions on a forum. No hard feeling towards anyone here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:02 pm:

Sorry for the thread drift Jon, Dave reminded me of what I have never seen! Some one have a picture of Sure Stop brakes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 06:33 pm:

What i don't understand is why a person has two T's one with and one would never? I have not seen any shouting match but i wonder why one T has the brakes and the other never will?? Are there hidden purist out there? Enough said?? Mabey if your done it's ok but others might not be done?? If i'm still able the new owner of our T's deserves all the info i can tell them!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:01 pm:

I saw more than one replica brass T at the OCF in '09. Where do you draw the line, Dave? How about the all white 1910 replica I saw there? Do you think there were all white Ts in 1910? Non-era paint/color is much more an affront to originality than any bolt-on accessory.

Disc brake kits are bolt-on, which makes them bolt-off, too. They belong on any car that needs them, when it needs them. The 4-wheel drum brakes on my cars are not so easy to undo.

Jay Leno has front disc brakes on his Dobles and other unique fast cars of the era that had no front brakes, because he drives them, and would rather not wreck them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:03 pm:

If your talking about me Ken both my Ts are drivers and both will have the same brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:21 pm:

Jamie, here in Australia horse drawn vehicles that are used on the road with paying passengers are required to have better brakes than standard as a horse or horses are so unpredictable and when it gets going you will not stop it so for the passenger safety and not end up splatted on the road way and for their public liability insurance they are fitted and it would be the same there in New York.
With the T you can put your foot on all pedals at one time or wedge it into the kerb or simply turn the key off and it will stop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

Paul,Nope. Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jamie Neilson on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Ray
My point exactly! Given the unpredictability of horses disc brakes make sense. Then again since so many automobile drivers (and the unexpected kid chasing the ball onto the street) are unpredictable as well, I feel if the owner so chooses, by all means use whatever additional braking device you choose. Surely safety is the paramount consideration...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 09:18 pm:

Bud, If your speaking of my post where I mentioned that I had Sure Stop discs, Simmons head, Stipe 280 cam, Texas T distributor and alternator, and Model B Zenith carburetor, intake and exhaust manifolds on my 26 four door sedan AND that I would never think of installing of installing such things on my Grandfather's 27 coupe, the answer is simple, but you have to have an open mind to accept it. My Grandfather's coupe is a family heirloom. It isn't perfect enough to be a show car for judging. It was in much too rough a shape before restoration. Even though it will see limited driving and because it has family history, I will always want to keep it as "stock" as possible. That should be easy enough to comprehend.
My 26 four door, on the other hand, has no family history. It, according to the last owner in Georgia, came from Pennsylvania where the previous owner did an amateur restoration on it. The only reason why I bought it was to have a car that would hold more bodies than my grandfather's 27 coupe. As you know, two is a crowd in one of them. I, also, wanted a car that had no sentimental connection, in case of any accidental damage, that I could drive when I wanted to, and where I wanted to. Now, I'm smart enough to know that there are limits to driving even a T with my sedan's modifications in urban traffic, but all of my driving is suburban or country, or on tours. My sedan is a nice "fifty footer", but has cracks in the paint, a lot of Bondo on the front fenders, and an incorrect cloth interior. It is by no means a "show car" and never as long as I own it, will be. Disc brakes on it are just added insurance. Maybe stock rear emergency brakes would be enough to keep me safe in an emergency; maybe not. That's a chance I don't want to take when so many other things are not "right" about the car, and when I say "right", I'm talking about the paint, body work, and interior, not the mechanical changes that I have made to the car. The modifications to the car, don't bother me in the least, and if it bothers someone else, they can pay my asking price for it and put it back original, and I'll go buy another car.
I am not a person with a split personality. I am a person with two cars destined for different purposes as long as I own them, and if I find my current engine modifications aren't enough, I've got an engine with a Rajo four valve head, Model A exhaust manifold and a Stromberg OE-1 carb that Stan Howe rebuilt for me, that I'll drop in it. The pleasure of owning a vintage vehicle is that there are no laws telling a owner how he can "fix it up". I have a totally stock T, and I have one that is a driver, pure and simple and there are no laws preventing such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:48 am:

One could make a case for the family heirloom needing disc brakes more than the regular driver. It is irreplaceable and therefore, more deserving of the protection from the inevitable catastrophe that is just around the corner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:51 am:

I was on the Natchez Trace the year the drive line let go on Bud Scudder. At the moment that happened, I'll bet he would have welcomed those unsightly brakes. Would have saved an ambulance ride for he and his wife.

For those who don't remember, he was going up hill then snap. Couldn't stop the car with the emergency brake (1926) from rolling backwards. Lost control and rolled it.

Disc weren't available then and Rockies don't work in reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Allen on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 09:59 am:

Hey, I'm really glad I started this discussion. It evolved into more than I anticipated, but some really good points were made. It's a trade-off between how much you drive, originality and safety. By involving all of those things, it is complicated and is an individual decision for each Model T owner and driver.
In my case I opted for Sure-Stops because I drive the car to local car shows in my area, some of which may be 30 miles one way. I am always a little scared when I get in that Model T to drive in modern traffic, and those Sure-Stops will reduce the fear-factor at least a little bit.
By the way, I succeeded in bleeding the brakes (by myself) with those little "Speed Bleeder" valves that I got at Car Quest. Great invention! I highly recommend them.
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 12:43 pm:

It is interesting that discussions regarding disc brakes causes this much debate, whereas nobody questions Z heads, OHV heads, aftermarket carburetors, or even flat tube radiators as being "non original". We all do the dyno testing when it is available at the tours to see how much power/speed our T is capable of, and are always trying to get more speed out of these old vehicles, but jump on our soap boxes when talk turns to slowing them down. As I see it, the basic answer is that disc brakes are better/safer but don't look original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:10 pm:

Dr. Chicoine

I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. However, I gently take issue with the use of "we" in the previous part. I for one (and there appear to be at least a few others) care not one hoot about going faster than the car was designed, nor are we planning on putting on brakes to mitigate that extra speed. As for speed equipment, a high compression head takes away the gentle putter of a model T and makes it a harsh, but better performing auto. UGH. I don't belong to the "we" group in any way, apparently.

For the folks who believe that disk brakes are paramount to safety, then have at it. Who am I to dictate to them? Along with that, then perhaps we should all wear helmets, which undoubtedly would add to the safety factor, too. Perhaps we could petition our government to mandate that for the good of us all. UGH. Perhaps they'll mandate discs for all of us (Double-UGH).

The good news for the disc brake crowd who make it sound like stock T's are a rolling death trap...take heart! You'll all be at the tour destination 1/2 hour before me, and as for myself, I won't be anywhere near you to be a risk! I'll be taking in the sights, sounds and smells that come from a thoroughly 20th century drive.

Cheers to all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 02:41 pm:

Yep, sounds like a Volvo commercial. They almost make it sound like if you don't drive a Volvo, you don't love your kids.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 04:25 pm:

From about 2000 when my brakes were built and in the dark about how and how much to build several things were learned.

I don't sell brakes or intend to. My rotors are 10 7/8" in diameter smaller then a large drum T.
For two adults that seems to be enough brake but just enough. With a 400 pound trailer more would be better. Two more folks in the back seat is like the trailer weight.

Sure stop brakes on a large drum must be about 15 1/2" in diameter because of the diameter of the drum. If I was driving a heavy T with extra folks in the car that should be plenty of brake.
pulling a trailer should not be a problem.

Found 11 5/8" motorcycle rotors for my 16 small drum. The leverage should be just about right for braking for my driving and the same size as a large drum stock T.

You don't have to be going fast to be in danger with poor brakes, grinding up a hill at 10mph,broke an axle might be more dangerous then if you broke an axle going down the same hill at 10mph and broke an axle. Where you live is another factor. Driving where Ralph lives its not hard to understand his brakes. I just sold some hyatts to a guy in N.C. who broke his axle he said he wished he had had better brakes but he was lucky where it happened. If you get cut off by a nut in a modern cars speed and brakes you can be right----- dead right!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 05:19 pm:

This thread not dead yet? In that case, I'll try for a third time to find out what motivates someone to drive a 100 year old car that is no longer a 100 year old car. How good or bad the brakes are is not the issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 06:03 pm:

Hmmm, why did people build speedsters? Why did they modify Model T's to race them. Why add an overhead to a touring car, why go with one of the accessory flatheads, why add a Warford (or similar) why add accessory brakes? All done during the 20's. Different folks had different visions of what they wanted their Model T to be. Not really much different than today if you stop to think about it. These mods may not be your cup of tea, that's all fine and wonderful, no complaints from me. I'd just prefer that folks not get all indignant about what I see as right for my car. Live and let live would suit us all well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 06:20 pm:

Dave,From a distance few can tell or care if it's is or not.The general public look's at the speedo drive and ask if that is front wheel drive? If one think's about past threads there have been some who only wish to damn Henry for the way he treated people and even Edsel! Some have changed almost everything on their car's and expound about what a poor car a model T is/was! The truth is/was the T can and will kill you if do not modify it or drive it with your brain! I know a couple that are lucky to be alive yet was it their fault or the early T? After the news Grandmaw said we can go for Ice Cream and i need to add air to a soft tire.Bud.PS,Speaking of my preaching i have to say there are picture's of me explaining free start's at a car show. Everyone told me i looked like Moses parting the Red Sea! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:55 pm:

I understand modifying them back the 20's. What I don't understand is why someone claims to like antique cars and then goes out of their way to modify all of it's antique features. Some will make these mods where they don't show. Others are OK with mods that show only when the hood is open. Disc brakes are so over the top, I can't even begin to comprehend it. I truly mean that. I am not trying to be hard to get along with. I truly do not understand it. Truly.

I am glad to hear that they are bolt on. At least no permanent damage is done. I can't wait to start seeing these cars in For Sale ads and see their owners listing all the "Features" they believe are pluses. And I suppose they are to other like minded individuals. I'd like to think there are still a few who would view such lists as something they would have to undo if they bought it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:57 pm:

Well said, Walt from Bellevue. I asked for an end to this discussion earlier, as I thought the subject had been hashed and threshed, to death, but apparently, there are T owner/restorers who think a T isn't a T if any late model modification has been made, so I ask those who criticize, to change the item of discussion. Lets see the purists criticize those who have modern bicycle speedometers, modern bearings, modern pointless ignitions, Z or any other head produced in the last 80+ years, or anything else that wasn't available in Henry's day. Nobody has got so upset and passionate about these things, or is brakes the only thing they can think about?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:13 pm:

At the risk of being totally ostracized, no, I don't much care for most of those either. Not sure what you mean by modern bearings. I have no problem with the modern pinion bearing. It doesn't change the operation of the car. It also is the only choice in some instances, as not all the parts are reproduced.

So, am I too far out there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:27 pm:

Noel asks why disc brakes bring forth such strong negatives from many when Z heads and OHVs don't — my guess is that disc brakes can onlyonly be modern and look it, whereas aftermarket heads and OHVs etc were available back in the day and, while they might be newly made, can still look period (albeit not stock). And of course, modern pinion bearings, aluminium pistons and the like don't show at all.

Anyway, that's my objection to disc brakes. Modern and looking it.

That Wayne Sheldon guy says a lot of smart stuff but the thing he says that I like the most is how he likes a Model T to look like it just came out of an old photograph. Hard to do that with disc brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:38 pm:

The hypocrisy in this thread is unreal. Some of the loudest complainers are running scat cranks. That completely removes a lot of the common vibration that makes a T a T. How can anyone do this to a 100 year old car and still claim it's an old car. Just saying.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:54 pm:

I think what Walt said was good judgement! When i bought the 14 the org speedo did not work but it had a bicycle speedo that worked very well.The thing was red plastic and 16 or so years later i still do not know how fast/or slow i'm going.I fail to see who is upset after all it's just a discussion? I have one of those Terry H oilers so i might not be a purists? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 09:39 pm:

Us "purists" still don't have an answer as to why someone wants to own a non antique antique. I guess that means I'm right, Hal is right and others too. Lots of top experts at the OCF, they must be right. I can think of one reason to own such a car. Let's see, Z heads, OHVs, big carb and cam, aux transmission and of course, disc brakes to stop it all. The ultimate sleeper. My old tin lizzy is going to spank a lot of cars at the stoplight and I'm going to have a good laugh and maybe win some bettin cash too. There my friends is a good reason to own such a car. OR, do you want a historic car? You can't have both in one car. Just trying to understand the mindset.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 09:52 pm:

Guess I have irritated enough folks I care about.

By family history and my habits ten years should be it before pushing up daisies! For those years I intend to do lots of driving short runs up and down hills many stops and some flat drives. few shows,or tours. My fun is every time you stop folks enjoy seeing what was driven nearly a hundred years past and truth fully would not know if it was original or not. I have had forty year olds say they did not know Ts had disc brakes.

I hope someone invents a simple drum brake that fits in a T drum that does the job to satisfy the issues here for both views for both sides of the issue.

That's not likely to happen so the second best hope is not seeing a post where some member or his bride were hurt or worse yet died for lack of adequate braking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 09:58 pm:

Dave, I would suggest you CAN have both in one car. To a certain point. Specifically, some speedsters.

Speedsters were built and modified by owners, in the era, and with aftermarket and/or home made components.

My speedster has a Z head, lowered suspension, (repro) AC brakes 3:1 rear gears, homemade bodywork and a few internal engine mods. A very similar car — appearance and performance — could have been built back in the day.

But I won't have disc brakes, an alternator, chrome plating, phillips screws or modrun carburetors 'cause they just aint rite. For me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Linsenbarth on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:07 pm:

I think most guys got into cars because of girls, at 60, I think cars still attract girls if they didn't I wouldn't own one that I had to work on 10 hours to go 30 miles, that just wouldn't make sense. I sure don't want to hit the order pole at sonic because I couldn't stop.
So I hope that explains why guys might want an old car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

Disc brakes have been common for almost 50 years, so they don't look odd to anyone but an old car guy.

Jersey George ought to come with a disc metal that wouldn't shine like a pewter dollar in a mud hole. That would take away the garishness for the fashion police.

Oh, how about brass, and let it shine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

What about the Sure Mick cranks from back in the day?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester W. Lowery TN on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:23 pm:

I actually saw a modified hydraulic drum brake system installed on a model T and you never could tell it was there. And the original T parking brake cam and all was still used. It had wheel cylinders used in each drum as of course it should... It was as period looking as it should be and worked like a charm. The late Mr. Cook spent many months designing and building it and it worked great after he got things adjusted right.....So it can and has been done... Just wish I had taken some pictures....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:25 pm:

"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"

If your Model T doesn't have correct finish/paint as it was applied originally, you would be a hypocrite to criticize the modifications on mine.

Gilsonite, anyone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:27 pm:

Dave, No you can't have both in one car. That's exactly the reason I have two T's. My Grandfather's 27 coupe is as stock as the day it came off the assembly line (with the exception of aluminum pistons, plastic timing gear, adjustable lifters, and maybe other things that you can't see.

My 26 sedan, on the other hand, gets driven by me, and except for club members who might see it, no one who has seen or ridden in the car, knows its not stock. Most of my neighbors aren't "T people" and to them, if it looks like a T, smells like a T, sounds like a T, and drives like a T, it must be a T. I don't try to fool anyone. If they ask questions, I give them straight answers. Now if I had alloy wheels, 50 series tires, a Chevy or Ford V8, and it was painted purple or banana yellow, I might raise a few persons suspicions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P Noonan on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:50 pm:

How about we conclude this, and live and let live? There will always be differing opinions among any large group, that's what makes us so special. I and many others have made our point/counterpoints. now like it says at the top of the page.."Post for the good of the hobby" ..Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:50 pm:

Correction: aluminum timing gear on my coupe. My sedan has the 7.5 degree advanced plastic gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:57 pm:

Dave you've heard from several of us. If you can't understand it from what you've seen above, I probably can't explain it to you.

There is a long tradition of making performance and other enhancements to the Model T. It's probably had more accessories of every type than any other car. That tradition lives on and just as there were likely detractors in the day, they are alive and well now. I don't have disk brakes on my car, I think they are the best overall system for effectiveness as well as the limited modification of the car but I just don't really care for the look on MY car. Instead I use hydraulic drum brakes that are equally modern but not quite as obvious to those who don't know better.

I hope you enjoy your car and travel safely with it. If you still don't "get" why some of us do things differently, that's really your problem, I think we've tried to explain.

Take care and enjoy your T, I know I'll enjoy mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:58 pm:

Charles, My bride of twenty years was met in my hot rod days with my 29 box stock looking A roadster.
She was a thirteen year old relation of a friend who talked me into a ride around town.
Twenty eight years later we met on a blind date and were married a few years later. She never forgot that ride--I don't remember it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 08:25 am:

Paul,That is what i do when i want to up grade or go fast! I jump in the Wifes Model A and set the throttle to 40.Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 09:34 am:

LOL! The A was all glass with a Chev. engine and a four speed hydro it turned over 100MPH in the quarter. How I lived through all the stupid things done then when I THOUGHT I was bullet proof I will never know!

My interest in Ts came from one of my riding buddy's at that time. He was a member of Rose City T with a touring we had fun going at speeds the A would do barely over one second from a stop.

When my brains more or less caught up with my retirement age I bought a T and have never looked back!


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