Waterpump or no water pump.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Waterpump or no water pump.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Holland, Utah on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

I know that this has been covered before. But I would like as many opinions as possible. I have a 1916 T. It originally had a 1911 round tube radiator and seemed to over heat constantly. I was new to this T, so I bought a Texas T water pump. It worked well with the 1911 Radiator and I rarely overheated, only on long low gear climbs did it overheat. The 1911 started to leak at the upper tank left rear corner. Fixed that. Then the front seam started to leak. I figured by the time I fixed all the constant leaks; I would end up with a solder Radiator rather than brass one. So, I bought a flat tube 1916 reproduction from Brass Works. I left the Texas T pump on. Should I remove it now that I have a new radiator. My T is for driving mostly in the summer. Utah's days in the summer range between 90 degrees and 100 degrees. All opinions would be appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

Take the water pump off!

IF you should happen to need it, you could always put it back on.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:53 pm:

1st I am a fan of water pumps if needed. That being said, I would run it without and see how she does. Just remember to match your spark to engine speed and don't run too lean. Bet it will do great now with the new radiator and remember, a little gurgling when you shut it off is normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 08:53 pm:

I enjoy the simplicity of no water pump and have never needed on. With a good/new radiator and clean block & head, it should not be needed. However, if you do long parades at 100 degrees, it may help. I'd bury the pump under a work bench with hopes of never seeing it again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

Even at 100, with a new radiator and a clean cooling system you shouldn't need it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:01 pm:

There's nothing like a new rad. You should never need that water pump again. My car does lots of parades with an old rad. The only time it ever boiled over was when I had a water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:43 pm:

here is my thought... if you have a used radiator then you will likely need a pump to push the water through the slightly clogged radiator. If you have a new radiator, you will probably push the water through to fast. Either way, start off without one. If you run it, and it doesn't get hot, then great! If it does, you need to choose if you want to buy a pump or a new radiator.... since you will need to replace the radiator eventually.. why not go ahead and do that. In my opinion, the only real time you need a new rad and a pump is in a high performance engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:54 pm:

Water pumps have less pros than cons. Flush the block, put on your new radiator and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

When I read the title of this thread I braced myself for a harangue but was quite surprised -where are you Royce and others? It does seem as thought the word is out as you would want it said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 08:36 pm:

I'll chime in on the side of no water pump. As said by others, flush out the block and install your new radiator. It should not overheat.

If it does overheat with a pretty clean water jacket and a new radiator, look for other problems like retarded timing, mixture too lean, etc. because it's probably not the cooling system causing the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 08:44 pm:

James, you are correct, where is Royce and some of those folks dead set on no water pumps???????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 09:03 pm:

My only issue is not with should I use a water pump, but now that I run a new radiator, should I run a fan belt or not. I don't even use that, but have it under the seat incase. I do put it on for parades in summer, but that is all. Probably don't really need it then either. Take off that water pump. You wont need it. Don't just leave it in place but not running as it will impede the water movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

Everyone knows water pumps are not needed on a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 10:48 pm:

Also, if you use a water pump, it will send out aquaharmonics that attack your private parts. Or was that altimeters?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 11:29 pm:

Thats not true, some T's use water pumps quite effectively to control heat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:59 am:

Why does Royce or 'some of the others' have to chime in? No one was suggesting the use of a water pump. Quite the opposite. You guys are finally catching on.:-)

Someone mentioned the simplicity of running with no pump. That is so true, but it goes further than that. It's almost like the 'magic' of running with no pump. Thermosyphon is just one heck of a neat phenomenon. Why would anyone want to do away with that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 07:59 am:

The beauty of having a Model T is

No Oil pump, no water pump and no fuel pump!
Love it

I have never used a water pump but do use flat tube radiators. Never boiled here in Australia!!!

When considering these "upgrades" I always ask myself why does it need something that wasn't factory fitted when it has lasted 80 years without one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:31 am:

Waterpumps for Model T that controls heat comes in many flavors - here is Ellehammers utility fire pump:

Closeup in color:

You do not need them on the engine :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:45 am:

Now that is a neat accessory, thanks Michael!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:29 am:

Hal, well said. I love a T for being a T. Adding of some of those bits can subtract some of what makes a T not like other cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:38 am:

The water pump that came on my 26 Roadster had a lot of end play so I took it apart to see what was up. The damage inside needed machining so I put a stock set up on. I noticed no difference in temp even pulling the steep hills in my area. Problem solved for me. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 10:53 am:

Erich, Here in Texas we get some warm summers so I use the fan belt year round. Parades or long periods of sitting at an idle could cause an overheat which I do not want so I use a fan and belt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 11:51 am:

I vote for keeping and using your water pump...

It will make a great wheel chock.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 12:58 pm:

Jim Patrick, is your real name "ROYCE"
OUTCH}}}}}}}}}} that hurt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 02:32 pm:

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 04:20 pm:

I have a waterpump but belt is not connected to it. I leave it how it is just in case I over heat and need to put belt around pump pully and use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 04:25 pm:

Tim, I see your logic but I know some if not all water pumps if not running will be a hindrance on the thermosiphon (AKA thermobarf) system. If not in use, may be best to take it off altogether.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Tim. There is an impeller in the water pump just in front of the water inlet that pulls the water into the block as it turns. If it is not spinning, the impeller will substantially impede the flow of the water coming into the block from the radiator. Best to either use it or take it off altogether. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Thursday, May 29, 2014 - 08:25 pm:

What he said


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 04:17 am:

I didn't even think about that.. Thanks Erich and Jim. i guess I have been lucky so far no overheating but I have a brand new radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:35 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 07:42 am:

You'd better watch it, Royce. You're gonna get a reputation.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 08:58 am:

I agree with the consensus that a water pump is not necessary on a Model T but what is the reason?

I always figured that it was because the water pump was more efficient than the Model T was designed to be. In other words, the Model T cooling system was designed to gradually circulate the hot water from the block to the radiator where it was cooled enough to circulate back into the block where it was heated again. This circulation would only occur at the pace at which the water in the block attained a temperature hot enough to cause the water to rise into the outlet and into the radiator then back down through the radiator where it was cooled by the flow-through air from the moving Model T. I believe that the water pump alters this careful balance by forcefully pulling the hot water from the radiator into the block before the radiator has had a chance to cool the water.

Since the water in the radiator and the block (to some extent) is cooled by the air flowing through the radiator and around the block by the forward motion of the car, I can see where a water pump would be advantageous during parades or traffic jams, but not anytime else, as long as the car was moving fast enough to create a flow of cooling air through the radiator and around the block.

If my assumptions are wrong, a correction would be appreciated.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:09 am:

These cars have fully exposed radiators that range from large to huge depending on the year to cool a relatively small engine so, no wonder thermosyphon works so well. One of these days I want to clean my water pump of all the grease it flung on itself so I can use it as a wheel chock like Royce does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 10:27 am:

No! It actually will prevent it from warming up to proper operating temperature unless you also have a thermostat, and both the waterpump and thermostat are potential problem areas.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 11:11 am:

Time to bring out a couple of my favorite pictures.


Wheel chock sale.


The E-water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 11:46 am:

Steve, I did not know that you had a water pump collection. Maybe you should team up with Royce, I bet between the two of you the collection is very large.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 12:02 pm:

Auction photo. :-)
Actually I think the only one I have is the one I took off a car I bought, unless there's another one that happens to be in a pile of auction purchases.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:01 pm:

Norm.

So, I have it backwards? From what you said, I assume the water pump actually prevents the water from heating up to the optimum operating temperature by prematurely pulling the cooled water from the radiator into the block, thereby pushing the semi-heated water in the block out through the outlet into the radiator where it is cooled even more, so that the water is never in the block long enough to reach the necessary optimum temperature for which it was designed to run the most efficiently? Seems like this would be a good thing for the T which is notorious for overheating, but apparently not.

So, what effect does failing to reach the operating temperature have on the Model T? For instance, does running below the optimum temperature prevent the effective vaporization of the fuel in the cylinders? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:19 pm:

Jim, it is my understanding that the T is close to being at the upper end of what a thermosyphon system will do. For much additional HP (resulting in more heat to dissipate), the radiator has to grow disproportionately.

I've never bought into the "Water pump moves water too quickly to cool" theory. Seems to me, if that was possible, then it would be moving through the engine too fast to heat up. It is an interesting subject. I might have to dig out some thermodynamics books and dig into it one day. Either way though, the radiator has to be capable of transferring the heat from the water into the air. That is usually what is wrong with a T that is overheating. If the heat cannot be transferred to the air, the water will continue to heat up, no matter how fast it is circulating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:28 pm:

I have been running with a Texas T water pump for numerous years with no problems. The Texas T pump has sealed bearings a stainless steel shaft and impeller. No leakage problems yet. Before putting on the water pump I had constant heating problems. Our T came from the prior owner with a Brass Works flat tube radiator and it's not plugged.
Our 13 T touring has been on the road for 15 yrs. It is bored .080" over which may be some of the cause for the prior over heating issue.
Using a Texas T water pump, the rear cylinders run around the same temperature as the front does....which I consider a plus. With out a good water pump, the rear cylinders run much hotter by comparison.

There were many water pumps produced for model T's and some may impede the flow of coolant vice helping. Old pumps having packing/adjustment nut with bushings that are prone to leaking and freezing up. I agree with Royce on the problems when using old pumps.

I'm not on a band wagon saying everyone should use a water pump on their T. However, if you find your self in a situation were it's needed...then try one.
I have nothing but good things to say about using a Texas T water pump.

Also use 10-30 Synthetic oil......not going to say anymore about that as it has been beat to death many times in the past on this forum. Royce likes to take the first swing at the bat on that issue also....Smile! I like Royce and enjoy his since of humor. Hope to meet Royce on tour some time and will be Praying that I'm not the one at the side of the road with a seized water pump.

Enjoy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:39 pm:

I am not going to comment on "why" something is not needed. I can say my experience has been that removing a water pump from each of my T's (all had water pumps when I bought them except the '17) has resulted in a car that runs cool and does not have a seized water pump or leaking water pump.

I owned a '15 runabout for a few months that had a seized and leaking water pump when I bought it. I loosened the water pump gland enough to allow driving the car until the water got dangerously low. The current owner in Louisiana removed the pump and fixed the leaking problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, May 30, 2014 - 01:54 pm:

My personal experience is limited, but one winter day (here in so California) we went on a tour to Julian which is a mountain town about 4,000'. There was some snow on the ground and I would guess the temperature outside to be between 30 and 40 F. We had driven for about 1 hour. We stopped for a short break at a rest area, and while there everyone stood in front of their radiators to get warm. I found that mine was still cold. I had a water pump on the car at the time. So I know in cold weather it prevents the engine from warming up. Those without water pumps were warm.

I have good radiators on my 3 T's and live in the mountains. I now have no waterpumps on any of them. It is all uphill to my house from town. Some days it gets over 100F and my cars don't boil. Sometimes when I shut them off at home they will gurgle for a few seconds, but that's all


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, May 31, 2014 - 12:13 am:

Hal. I look forward to your research on this subject. Perhaps we can arrive at a definitive answer. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Monday, June 02, 2014 - 09:00 am:

In a modern car, the thermostat not only maintains a stable water temperature in the engine but also acts as a flow restrictor when open. Without a restriction in flow (such as our T's) and running a water pump there would be a danger of water circulating too quickly through the radiator and not dropping in temperature sufficiently or in the cases where the radiator can't handle the higher flow rate the water will be forced out the over flow pipe. has anybody experienced this? As mentioned previously, I don't run a water pump, just have a good radiator

Alan


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