I drove the 1923 touring when I went to town for groceries this afternoon. It was not a nice drive. In addition to a steady vibration, more than what's normal for a T, there was a regular knocking/dinging. Coming up the hill from the river, where I usually can accelerate in high, today I had to use the low pedal to get to the top.
The previous owner told me the car was "restored" in the sixties, whatever that may mean. It's a good thing this engine/transmission is slated for a rebuild this summer. The way it is now I'd be afraid to drive it until I find out what's going on. I can imagine a few things, and I don't like any of them.
Ewww, that doesn't sound good. Is one of your other Ts drive able?
Sorry to hear that Steve, is that the same one you just did bands in?
Brass rivets in the timing gears. 2" diameter hole in the number 3 piston, broken crankshaft, rod through the side of the block, broken camshaft, ball bearing on top of the number one piston, bad water pump, broken distributor shaft, bad bendix on your 12 volt starter, overfull of 50 weight nondetergent motor oil, Kevlar bands breaking down, bad alternator gear, antifreeze in the number two combustion chamber because of blown head gasket, or maybe you're just having a bad day. Oh wait I forgot one, carbon impregnated grease in the timer. I'll bet it's the last one.
Fortunately, most of those don't apply to this car. Unfortunately, a couple of them might.
John, yes it is. That's one job that won't have to be part of the overhaul.
Oh hey, I got another one, bad E-timer!
Whew, boy Steve, I was trying to think of some of the easier problems to fix. Sincerely (if you can believe it), I hope it's not real serious. When you brought it up I immediately thought of those brass band rivets. I'm sorry if I went too far with my goofing around. It's just one of those evenings for me.
Nothing like good Ole compassion for a fellow T owner it seems.
Compassion, I know, and I probably would have got mad if someone did it to me. As I said it's one of those evenings. I guess maybe I'll just go to bed and spare the rest of you of such ignorance. I apologize Steve.
Mike, don't beat yourself up like that...We are all here to have a good time with our chosen hobby! isn't that the whole point?
Yeah, but you were right to bring up my lack of compassion. I'd feel pretty bad if I had Steve's situation. And the last thing I'd want is some smart a__ messing with me. I can dish it out but I'm lousy at taking it back.
Check for a broken valve.
Maybe another rolled band lining in the transmission?
So sorry to hear about that, Steve. Let it rest a few days, then start the inspection process, hopefully it isn't too serious.
Or, just set it aside to wait for the rebuild, and refocus your energies to the runabout.
Sorry to hear it! Myself i would do a compression test before any tear down? Bud.
When I hear of these situations I always start to imagine inspection methods using bore scope. I'm always afraid to bring it up to often. There's a proctologist that lives down by the lake and if he finds out I've got a flexible scope that goes around corners and has a light on the end of it, I fear for what he might do!
It could be that your Kevlar bands are too tight. they should be as loose as you can get them and still be able to lock up the drums when the pedal is about 1 inch above the floorboard. If any one of them is too tight it will put a drag on the car. The way I test them is after tightening them to the above specification, I can push the car in neutral without turning the engine, and if I can run the engine in neutral on a level surface without the car creeping, they are adjusted right. Those tests will tell you if low and reverse are ok, and if it is not too hard to push, it will tell you if the brake is OK. You might still be alright if the drums have not gotten too hot and cracked.
Curiosity.... why would you suggest a bad E-Timer ?
Geeze Steve that car has been one heart ache after another. The only good thing here is you planned to pull it down in the future. Of course you probably expected the far future not the near. Ken's suggestion to take a compression test is a good one especially if it's normally a good runner. It might save you from going too deep. You know how fast these things get like Topsy and "just grewed". On another note that line about the car was restored in the 60's. Really? Was he there? Is this what you're telling me to jack the price a bit? I'd have done a double take that would have made Edgar Kennedy proud if I heard that. Years back I looked at a Touring (e-bay listing) not far from here. The ad mentioned "it's a survivor". Man, was that car beat. He used the line on me and I came back with: "What did it survive Heroshima"? It was all down hill from there but I was walkin' any way.
I'm not upset or depressed over this. I look at this car as part of the lab for my Model T class. So far it's taught me front and rear suspension and axles, NH carburetors, spoke pressing, and a few other chapters in the text of Model T maintenance and repair. Given the state of all the things I've worked on so far, I assume no engine work has been done for many years and nothing is balanced. So this summer I'll haul the engine/transmission down to Tulsa when Mike has the time for it, and we'll give it the full treatment. Meanwhile I'll do the rear axle for the roadster and put it in so I have a T to drive. Maybe I'll even get around to starting on a top for this one.
I agree with Norman,
Apparently the 23 ran OK until you had the band problem and changed them out to Kevlar. I've found when I have a problem (not just on T's) I always check what I did last. Quite often I caused the problem (poor adjustment etc.). With the band or band tight it could cause a rotational jerking. Maybe the noise is the backlash of the ring gear kicking from one side of the tooth to the other. Just an uneducated, pluck it out of the air analysis on my part. I'd sure check the simple things before getting a shovel and digging into that apparatus up front. Hope you get it going soon. PS:sure like your 15 roadster; wish mine was a bit further along than the pile of iron oxide it is now.
Didnt you have a TT Steve? :>)
I love your positive outlook ! It's one thing that I have worked on more than the T. This is a hobby and is supposed to be fun.....I keep telling myself that over and over!!
Good luck to a true Renaissance man!
Bob Jablonski, mostly because I couldn't imagine Steve running with an e-timer. If you go back and read my post you'll also notice I brought up a distributor, a 12 volt system, a water pump, nondetergent oil and Kevlar bands. Though Steve doesn't seem to be an excessive compulsive about the absolute need to be sure his cars are correct to Henry's design I'd still think these would be a list of things he'd shy away from using. I just hope he's successful at finding the cause and fix for the issues with his car.
I believe Dennis and Norman had a great suggestion. If it was fine before the bands were replaced and this was one of the first drives afterwards -- then it is likely related to the repair.
Good luck and take your time to check the simple things and then the more complicated items.
Please keep us posted as we all can learn from each others' experiences.
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It may be that I have one or more of the bands too tight, but I doubt it. I was wary of that, and very conservative in adjusting. But I'll check that and all the other simple things I can think of. That said, the engine/transmission will be coming out this year. If we get into it and find everything OK after decades of neglect I'll be very surprised.
Mac, yes I still have the TT project. But I've spent most of my T time on the other ones and haven't got very far with it.
Before you park it and lock it until you get 'round to it again because you have others to play with...(I did that once 25 years ago...it's still parked, and not quite locked but did get disassembled somewhere along the way...and now I know the only problem with that swiss watch then was two coils that went bad at the same time!)...
Take a simple compression check...sitting that long you may have a sticky valve. Other than that swap the carb out for one off the other cars and go for a ride. I just can't see it being reasonably OK and then parked for a bunch, and now running without any guts.
On the Kevlar...I ALWAYS start out silly loose on all...and then walk them in one at a time...while reasonably hot. Think you are aware of that...
I lose track of what you are working on when...lol...but I'd unfortunately have the same story if I'd blog...
I think it was you who posted a picture of the bands not centered on the drums. One band was overlapping the adjacent drum. Did you resolve that problem? That could be what caused the old linings to fail and what is slowing your car at this time.
After Mike Bender sent me a picture of a normal transmission, I could see that my drums are properly placed. As for bands slowing the car, the only way I see for that to happen is if they're too tight. In direct drive all the bands should be loose.
I have a mechanic friend who has some advice for situations like this. I always try to remember it when things don't go right.
"If you don't like problems like this, you shouldn't work on old cars...!"
You've got to remember that back in the day (60's--70's) a rebuild was new rings and valve job, nothing more, so be wary of old "rebuilds". Don