I have my engine at J and M machine in Southborough MA. They are rebuilding my engine from just a block head and pan! They send me weekly updates with great pics, I thought I might as well share them!
The first two are the block after being thermal cleaned to remove any deposits in the water passages, looks like fresh iron! The cracks are highlighted in orange.
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These are more of the head and block and close up of cracks that need repair
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The first pic is the cracks near the pan rail repaired, second is the block being milled and third a crack that became apparent while milling.
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These are pics of the block being milled and bored, the block needed to be bored 60 over due to severe gouges caused by broken ring in number two cylinder, also pics of head in the milling machine and final finish on the head.
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I take it from all the other work being done to this block that the cracks are going to be repaired? If so, please add some pictures of the repair process if you get them, thanks!
The metal stitching they do is crazy cool. My plan/goal is to send them my engine with a Scat crank and let them work their magic. Might even have a Rajo ready to bolt on once it gets back if I'm lucky.
Yes, Russ Potter calls their metal stitcher a genius..Top tier engine builders, no question...
These are pics of after all the repairs have been made and finished milling and the bored and finished hone. Also a pic of the valve seats installed, all still covered in oil! The next step after though cleaning is babbit and the installation of my new scat crank!
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Pistons being balanced, start weight, removing weight, end weight! all the high compression pistons are also sized. The spec for this engine. hc pistons, no magneto, t parts distributor, stipe 250 cam, scat standard crank, holley nh. hopefully this will propel my light speedster to 45mph, and climb some berkshire hills
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This set of pics shoes the new triple gears, reaming the bushings, and then also balancing them. The fly wheel is also balanced and the last pic is before the new triple gear pins are pressed in. John took special care and also magnafluxed the flywheel in several places to ensure the flywheel would not fail.
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Stay tuned for the babbit and crank and rods, as well as the pan being straightened! http://jandm-machine.com/ also they have a great facebook page with tons of other interesting engines! Check out the hereshoff engine that had a hole nearly blown through the crank case! These guys can fix anything
Great pics of an interesting project. My question to you would be with all the thousands of dollars going into the engine and the rest of the speedster why would you plan on running an NH? Don't want to go fast and have some power?? Or just intent on sticking with something Ford supplied as an original?
That carb is just for now, will prob get creative as time passes. At least I know I will have a rock solid engine that I can use for a super long time! Also not much of a speedster, I get nervous going fast in a t, just wanted a little extra push so the pistons will be enough, I do recall your extensive post of cool carbs and about how they run. You may hear from me, maybe next year!
Beautiful work...
Looking forward to more photos...
Got more photos of my engine at J and M, Now I am starting to get excited. I will still need to work at least a month of overtime to finish the trans though....
The rods being balanced
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more balancing
The new scat crank getting balanced
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block bearings poured and line bored
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Looks good Dave
Joy to see...beautiful work ...
Nice to see things done right. I have not seen a Scat crank that needed balancing. Is yours modified in some way? All we have used are balanced right out of the box.
The digital scale is nice. I am still using an old school shadow graph. Thanks for the pics.
Erik
The addition of the fan pulley is enough to need to fine tune the crank, nothing left to chance.
Hey David, no dippers on your connecting rods?
Here are more, and the last of them until I can steal enough cash from the savings account without the wife knowing! final block and crank assembled, some examples of the print outs from balancing. The pan cleaned and corrected. Also pics of the rod dippers that were asked about.
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I will get to the trans drums closer to the fall, as well as hogshead rebuild
I find it interesting that the engine rebuild photo's posted of late, that the rebuilders don't take advantage of the Ford specs of minimising crankshaft float with the centre main bearing cap, when I pour I put the shoulder on the cap (the same as con rods) cut the clearance to the Ford specs of .015-.030 float for centre main sides and radius cut to match the shaft.
I can tell you why Frank, because that is the wrong way to do it!
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Herm, I'm curious...
When I poured my mains, I had the machinist determine where the center of cylinder 4 was and then we cut the thrust on the third main to what the Ford spec was. My thinking was that the conrod would be dead center of the cylinder... and so would the others... and working back to the third main, I would have the thrust correct and not cause an offset in the cylinders. Hope I explained that correctly!
When we were done, the thickness of the babbitt on either end of the third main cap was almost equal.
In your picture of the third main, it looks like there is a whole lot of babbitt on the inside and very little on the crank flange side.
Just wondering, and not looking to upset you, but why would that be?
Thanks
Justin
Looks like #2 main on Herms pics have thrusts on both sides... or am I seeing it incorrectly?
So Herm, once again you think you know more than 'Fords' engineers!!
Yes Justin, Herm has a bad habit of not reading posts correctly, what you see is exactly as I described, he has babbitt flanges on no2 to take up some of the float on the shaft, if you look up the old skool specs the clearance from Ford is 1/32 to 1/16"
OK, I do chose to pour flanges on the center and front main, there is a reason for that, but they don't work any better with, or with out.
The bearing when poured needs at least a flange on one side, as with out it you would not have enough babbitt for shrinkage. You can take the flange off when poured, if wanted. I put one on both sides because the block is wider then the caps, so when I get done, both sides are even, so the cap is not recessed, and I will have a full radius (JUST FOR LOOKS) as it works either way.
As you can see, I have about .050 to .060 thousandths on each side of the bearings. It has to be that way. When the center main is centered in the block, the rear main is where it belongs, the front main is also where it has to go. That is why I have posted these 4 pictures to show just that. Look at the front of the crank gear, it is exactly even with the front cover surface of the block. If it is further ahead, it can hit the front cover from expansion and also the tail shaft in the ball cap is affected for set, and also how the field coil will fit with to many shims, or having to file off the field coil bosses, and the crank, and cam gear being positioned to about .010 to .030 thousandths, with the crank gear behind the cam, as that will change when hot, as it expands forward.
Justin, when you center the center of the crank in the block, every thing comes out perfect, which is all mains and rods centered.
I will say here that there is NO WAY that you can measure a point on any part of the block or rear main cap to be able to center the crank. That is because there is about a 1/8th difference from one T crank to another, and or the blocks. You can use a centering gauge on Model A's, but it can't be done with Model T's, and I found that out 47 years ago. The rear main picture that I posted, the crank I put in the block was a replacement. But you will end up with a small amount of babbitt on either end, or any where in the middle. There was about .035 thousandths left on the rear cap, and when it wears about .006 thousandths, the mag. clearance will be shot and should be replaced any way, but there is way more then will be used.
I have seen a lot of U-Tube videos that show just pouring in to a cap side ways, and when cooling, the babbitt shrinks below the length of the bearing, and then more babbitt is poured in on top of the old, and then a torch is used to melt that. That does nothing but make a defective bearing.
Because to have the babbitt cool like that, the shell has already cooled, and in no way would be able to adhere to the shell. The shell has to be at 610 to 640 for for proper tinning, and pouring. Then the shell has to cool first, and the excess babbitt last. If you take a torch and heat any babbitt, you can't help but burn it and the tinning.
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Thanks for the explanation Herm. Happy Friday everybody!
Cheers
Justin
So Herm, once again you think you know more than 'Fords' engineers!!"END QUOTE"
No, Kerry, You will never learn anything. You misinterpret what your book says!
The only place on any crank that we have done, the crank, or radius should NEVER TOUCH THE END OF A BEARING, unless it is the thrust bearing.
Yes Justin, Herm has a bad habit of not reading posts correctly, what you see is exactly as I described, he has babbitt flanges on no2 to take up some of the float on the shaft,"END QUOTE"
Frank, Kerry, or what ever your name is this week. The babbitt flanges on the cap are cut even with the cast iron of the block, NO babbitt, or Radius is touched by the crank, as it is not desirable, or wanted!
Even with the block, Frank, Kerry.
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Herm, I don't have a problem if you wish to exceed or defy manufactures specs, on a 'T' it all still works!!
This has been a very positive, informative thread. Please don't hijack it.....
I just wish I could come over there and see and learn how it should be done.
Thanks for the great information
Andre
Belgium
I'll second that !
And David and J&M, beautiful pictures, keep them coming. Quality workmanship.
Cheers,
Justin
I don't see how a flange on a center bearing with .030-.050 clearance could have any use at all. The crank is held in place by the rear thrust and a clearance of .003-4. If the crank is not able to move but .003, the center would NEVER be able to touch the flange. I agree with Herm, the center flange is redundant.
James, it has no need to run on the flange as that clearance is the 30/50 thou, it's running on the radius cut on the shaft and babbitt, Ford set the specs not me!!
Show me those Ford Spec's Frank, I will explain them to you!
If I ever need another engine I am going with J & M. You guys have thoroughly impressed me. Dont answer this if you dont want to but roughly what would the cost of a complete build be with a bare block?
Herm, the Ford service book gives specs, I go one better, first photo shows a 26/7 shaft with the cap not carrying the radius and is cracked around both radius ends. second and third photos show an early stock engine with the factory .015 clearance at each radius, front and 2nd caps.
Hey turns out that the little car that put the world on wheels is not as simple as one would expect! There is so much involved in bringing these engines back into new, sometimes better than new condition. Thank you Herm, long ago I asked which shop to use in my area. You said qoute, J and M for sure! Thank you again, this has been great advice! I have learned so much though the process and I am humbled to realize that I didnt know nearly a tenth of what I thought I did! I hope some see this as a helpful post, Im am not trying to show off my engine, saved up for it a dime at a time! Thank you John and Mike at J and M in Southborough Ma!
I think what was missing in the above few exchanges is the fact that the crank will grow in length as it heats up. As Herm stated, the only place the crank is "constrained" (my word) is at the rear main cap (or the rear main block, too, if the block is modified), no where else. I am unaware of the Ford specs that you are quoting, but it is certain that the spec of .015-.030 on the center main are tolerances to the bearing (min/max), but shouldn't be confused as to those numbers being germain to locating the crank in any way. These clearances will allow the crank to expand in length to the extent that it will at operating temperatures and yet be sure to remain free from obstruction on the center and front main bearings at all times.
And thanks to David and Herm for posting interesting and informative pix.
Frank, what you are showing in the bottom picture is a 1914, to some time in 1915, on main caps that had babbitt on the sides. Those Caps were made much different then the ones made after 1915 through 1927, and are the ones that Mr. J & M Machine show, as the cap is narrower then the block, AS FACTORY!
Many MAKE"S of engines in that time frame had babbitt on the sides of their bearings that was never put there for a thrust, IT SHOULD NEVER TOUCH THE CRANK IN ANYWAY.
The rear thrust is the only cap the crank is allowed to touch the babbitt.
The Radius on the crank should never be allowed to touch the babbitt radius on the cap, NOT EVEN ON THE REAR CAP.
(I find it interesting that the engine rebuild photo's posted of late, that the rebuilders don't take advantage of the Ford specs of minimising crankshaft float with the centre main bearing cap, when I pour I put the shoulder on the cap (the same as con rods) cut the clearance to the Ford specs of .015-.030 float for centre main sides and radius cut to match the shaft. "Franks End QUOTE"
NOW, FRANK, I know your making up that Phrase,
CRANKSHAFT FLOAT, because there isn't such a thing, unless you are talking about .010 thousandths shaft clearance.
Frank, if you are going by what the Ford Spec's are of 1/32, and 1/16, you may want to change what you are setting your engine side clearance at, because 1/32 is .031-25, and 1/16 is .030, not .015 and .030.
NO WONDER YOUR CRANK"S HIT THE RADIUS!!!!!
"AND"
"FRANK"S OTHER QUOTE"
Yes Justin, Herm has a bad habit of not reading posts correctly,"END QUOTE"
I read the post correctly, I just had to DEBUNK your Misinformation "AGAIN"
Well said, Mr. Scott!
Herm.
Any measurement set in the specs is a shared one 30/50thou split for front and back, if you read it any other way then you would be setting the thrust clearance of 3/4thou at both ends of #3 cap and we know that's no good for the magneto, to much "FLOAT" on the crank, it needs some float for that expansion. I did not say that my radius cuts are running metal to metal, they are set with the oil clearances the same as radius cuts on rods.
By the way, quoting the term "float" check out that photo of the #4 con rod big end of J&M's, I can see the journal on both sides and judging by the scale of the split pin, the top would be 1/16" and the the other side maybe as much as an 1/8", A "Float" of that much will soon see the wrist pin on the cylinder wall!!
Any measurement set in the specs is a shared one 30/50thou split for front and back. "END QUOTE"
You are SOOOOOOOOOO wrong. It is very easy to take a measurement of clearance.
If you need .003 thousandths end play in the rear cap, you push the crank to one end or the other and feeler it. Measuring both ends at the same time is a useless effort, and is moot.
they are set with the oil clearances the same as radius cuts on rods."END QUOTE"
Wrong again, There is no oil clearance cut on the Radius of any bearing. The clearance is cut at that point so the bearing babbitt, and the Radius on the crank NEVER MEET! I know you didn't know that! That goes for Rods also if you don't consider them bearings.
Lesson of the day boys and girls!! we can't share the clearance on any component that will float. set one end of the 2nd cap to 50+thou and pick an end on the 3rd cap for 3/4thou and let them fight it out when expanding. No wonder Ford dropped the babbitt of the 2nd cap, it was to accommodate machinests like you, and not to save money!!
I do not believe J and M has had any failures in over two decades.
I can't even answer your last post, because it is all Gibberish.
No answer needed Herm!!
OK, so we are debating (arguing) on the merits of something Ford did for several years and can still be done today if one wishes to spend the time.
Lets see if we can see if there was any benefit in scraping the middle full width cap? at this point I can only see benefit in still having it.
maybe a survey?
Those who know of cracking or breaking of a crank in the middle journal using full size caps against those who have the later caps for a start.
I for one have a 26/7 crank cracked around both radius.
No veteran cranks as yet.
Any body?
Kerry, you are under a false notion that Ford did it as you say, and he didn't.
No body has ever done bearings like that except you.
Maybe so for your US T's, I've done several Canadian veterans and this is or was the way they came in, even still using Dodge caps up to 1916's.
Quote, 'No body has ever done bearings like that except you'
I forgot to mention that I do know of one other that does cap flanging on no2, even posted a photo of said job, but he chose to give it a little more clearance than book specs. Have a nice day Herm.
Annnnnnd now this thread is going nowhere..... Im not going to comment on who is right, just stop.
As I said before, I just wish I could come over there and learn how it is done the right way.
I saved it as a word document on my PC as I did with the great transmission discussion last year.
Thanks all for the explanations.
Andre
Belgium
I will try to post a total trans rebuild and hogshead rebuild as well in the fall. I would glady accept a zero percent loan to get it moving asap! just kidding.....
Dave; can you please start a new thread with the transmission rebuild, with the hope it won't get hijacked by another pissing contest? I've rally enjoyed your pictures and updates.
Everyone has a right to ideas and opinions but when it doesn't get anywhere it gets old. That is what this place is for! And I hope there are no hard feelings! I will start a new one with the trans rebuild and total eng assembly.
I opologise to all the feel it was a hijacked thread, but you fellow T owners that are unable to do your own machining (something I do for free for club members) pay a lot of money to get what you hope is a rebuild to see you to the nursing home. You want it to be at least if not better than Henry sent them out the door. As rough and worn as they seem when we work on them, they did have min & max specs set by Ford and exceeding the max is not a promise of a long life rebuild. the crank is one part that can be reclaimed and machined well over specs but it's simple to compensate by modifying supporting parts for long a life.
For those who may be interested in Ford specs, although they are Ford Canada period prints, it shows clearly that flanging of main caps to put the crank to clearance specs.
That is not a build spec. That is the equivalent of a cartoon and the purpose of that image is other than building an engine. If you're counting on that to prove "the way its supposed to be" I would take issue with the lack of rod bolts and nuts.
True, but that is funny Gary!
Herm.