Model T only runs for about 45 seconds

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Model T only runs for about 45 seconds
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:18 am:

I apologize for having limited knowledge of Model T's. I am relatively mechanically inclined and saw a Model T for sale. I had to have it. Now that it is in my garage, I am trying to get it running. It is a 1927 Model T. I tried starting it and it would run about 45 seconds, stall out, and I could not get it restarted. I read on several threads about spark plugs. I invested in the Champion X plugs. They came in yesterday and I gapped them to .030. Started up a little easier, but still stalled out and could not be restarted. I am confused on where to turn my attention next. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:22 am:

Running out of Gas. let it sit and the bowl fill's back up again. Start and run for 45 sec. bowl empty. You have a blockage somewhere between the tank and carb.
Or the float is set wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:23 am:

Check for proper gas tank venting first Brian, then start checking for carb problems. You can google search something like " mtfca carburetor" and read other posts that will steer you in the right direction. Good Luck, Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:25 am:

Sounds like fuel problem what carburettor - is it a vaporizer or is it a Holley or a Kingston have you checked the sediment bowl? Pictures are very helpful


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:26 am:

The fact that it runs almost a minute tells you the ignition is firing. Check fuel. Is sufficient flow getting to the carburetor? Is a bit of debris stuck in a passage?

For thorough instructions on getting a T going after it has sat for a long time, here's Milt Webb's checklist:

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG93.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:26 am:

Brian, your symptoms are typical of fuel starvation. The car will run for a short time on a carby bowl of fuel and then stall. If there is a filter in the line, that will do it. It will slow down delivery to the carb, but will allow fuel through slowly so you can get another carb full in time for another start. Get rid of a filter if one is fitted.

Then check the flow of fuel to the carby. If you disconnect the line at the carby you should get a steady stream of fuel when the tap tap on the sediment bowl is turned on.

If that is OK, the carby itself could be the problem.

Others may have further suggestions.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Brian Just to help a little the sediment bowl on a '27 is on the passenger side inside the engine compartment there is a lever that turns the gas on and off and a petcock drain in the bottom. 27s came with a vaporizer carb but were temperamental so a lot of people swapped them for holley's or kingstons hope this helps a little


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:38 am:

When I first got my 26 T I had a similar problem. The outlet at the bottom of the tank was clogged with chunks of scale. I had to remove the sediment bowl and clean it out. Over a month of driving I had to do this four times. It now runs clean. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 09:57 am:

Yeah man, check that your gas tank is venting properly, take that sediment bulb off and clean it out (there's a wire mesh screen that can get loaded with tiny debris), if there's a fuel filter remove it, and finally if there is a carb tell us what it is.

What most likely happened is that you got some gas with some ethanol in it and it is eating all of the varnish off the inside of the gas tank and fuel lines. Once this all gets eaten away and you've cleaned it out a couple times you should be good to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 12:34 pm:

Brian, please attach a picture of the fuel side of your engine showing the sediment bulb and carburetor. Then we can see what type you are running and give better suggestions as to how to fix your problem. I don't know if anyone else has spoken to this. On the 27 there is a valve at the sediment bulb right in front of the firewall on the right side of the car. The valve is open when the handle is pointing straight down. If it is sideways, the valve is off. If someone has removed the handle and installed it 180 degrees, the valve could be open when the handle is pointing up. The first thing you should do in troubleshooting is to find out whether the valve is open or closed. If it is closed, a small trickle of gas could be getting through and that is why it will start if you let it set for a while. When you are sure the valve is open, check for good fuel flow. Fuel should run continuously from the bowl of the carburetor when the valve at the bottom of the carburetor is open. If you get only a few drops or if it flows for a few seconds and then stops flowing freely, you have a clogged system. The sediment bulb has a screen in it. check to be sure the screen is clean. Check that the fuel line is open, and that fuel flows out freely at the end near the carburetor. Then check the float valve in the carburetor to be sure it is allowing fuel to flow. Sometimes dirt will get into the float valve causing blockage. Try opening the fuel mixture screw about 1/2 turn (counter clockwise) That will give you a richer mixture for starting. If all the above have been done,and the problem persists,lastly remove and clean the carburetor. If you have a vaporizer, someone else who is familiar can guide you how to do that. Your picture is anticipated.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 02:39 pm:

Thank you all for your suggestions. I will take pictures tonight and add those to this thread. Additionally, I will begin trying some of these suggestions and continue to post the results. As a newbie, I really appreciate all the responses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 08:50 am:

Here are some pix of the fuel/carbeurator. I tried starting the vehicle last night and have a load grinding type sound. the engine is not spinning. It was coming from the starter, so i assume i must have damaged the started trying to get it started to many times?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 08:53 am:

 


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 09:02 am:

apparently my pictures are too big to upload. I will have to retry tonight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 09:08 am:

Pics have to be smaller than 194K to post. 5.9 inches wide at 150 dots per inch works well for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 09:11 am:

Isn't there a poster here from Riverview, Fl? Jim Patrick maybe? There is most likely someone local to you who is familiar with T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 09:21 am:

Brian I sent you a PM


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 02:08 pm:

I forwarded the pix to you G.R. Another poster from Riverview???? That would be fantastic!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 09:07 am:

Brian, I like to look at profile pictures and vaguely recall someone else from Riverview.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 11:25 pm:

Bob Hester is from Riverview, Fl.
http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=tmodeldriver-users


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:12 pm:

Sorry for the slow response but My dog was bitten by a Snake and it has been a looong weekend
It is def. a vaporizer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:14 pm:

I dont think that paper gasket is supposed to be there I think that is supposed to be a metal plate but I am not as fluent in vaporizer as I should be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 11:50 am:

While you are checking everything out, take a look at the hinge on your carburetor float. I had a similar issue with the car running for a while and then stopping. Wait a couple of minutes and it starts right up and runs for another while, then quits again. Turned out the ears on the float hinge half that connected to the carburetor fatigued one at a time and, finally, the car wouldn't run at all. Replaced the bad hinge half and it runs great again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

thanks to all for the help. G.R., sorry to hear about the dog and hope everything is ok! From trying to start this car so much, it appears I broke my spring on the Bendix starter. I plan to replace that this weekend and then get back to this issue. I will try all these suggestions and repost the results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 03:37 pm:

Brian,
If you are running a 12V battery you will probably break your new Bendix spring. Make sure you are running 6V or put a big ol' ballast resister in there.

You have what is in my opinion one of the best carburetors. Once it is going good you shouldn't have to mess with it very often. Mine needs attention almost every 10 years. Get rid of that gasket and put a proper heat plate in there. It is thin sheet steel for good heat transfer (the whole point of a vaporizer carby). About 3 years ago I did the 10 year service on my carb, the steel vaporizer plate had cracked and burnt through. I just threw in a new one... only a couple of bucks.

No one mentioned the screen in your fuel strainer. That often gets gunked up. You will open the fuel line and say "man that's good flow". You close it up and the car still won't run. What happens is you are draining the fuel in the strainer. Let it run at least 30 seconds. If the flow is good, then bad you've found the problem. Pull out your strainer and clean or replace it.

Check your tank vent. Check your float and needle. Since you are probably running an alcohol mix be sure to clean everything out and make sure all parts are alcohol safe. I've had problems with "viton" type seats on carburetors. Right now I'm running Grosse Jet needle and seat with no problem in my 1927.

From what I see you have a nice looking car... everything looks right (I can't see that water pump!). It may be frustrating now, but when you get it running right it will go for a long time... you have the most modern model T design there!

The only thing I would add is a choke pull so you can start it from cold by hand.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David R. Smith on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 06:22 pm:

Brian,I just had this problem with my 26 coupe. I has the gas shut off completely apart and no gas coming out. I reached up and loosened the gas cap and away we go. It needed air. May help you.
Smitty


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wilson, Saint John NB, Canada on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 06:39 pm:

Definitely a vaporizer carb same as my Canadian 27. Looks like somebody made a heat plate of tin or used a paper gasket. In either case it wont work as the correct heat plate has indents to allow the flow of fuel. The one you have may be flat with just enough room to let a little fuel trough until it heats up and closes the fuel off. Since the plate is directly exposed to hot exhaust gasses, 45 sec would probably do the trick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 09:49 am:

a few updates...I did pull the starter apart and found a broken spring. It is a 12 volt and this is the first I heard about the resistor. How can I check to see if one is already installed? Also, I checked on the vaporizer gasket. It is definitely metal, but apparently not the right one? I will also order a new gasket. When removing the starter spring, everything else looks to be in good condition, but is there anything in particular I need to check on the starter? The bendix gear is in very good shape.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 09:58 am:

Brian a cheap resistor can be made by getting 4 ga bare copper wire about 12 ft and wrap it around a broom handle keeping the coils separated then place this resistor between the main battery cable and the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 10:53 am:

I have read that having a 12 volt coil, eliminates the need for a resistor. Do you know how I can tell if the coil has been changed to a 12v from 6v?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 11:18 am:

The resistor is to make the engagement of the starter not as hard so you don't break springs...nothing to do with the coils and the voltage means very little a 6 Volt battery is used to start the motor, then you switch to magneto which is about 28Volts A.C. so the coils run anywhere from 6 Volts D.C. to 28 volts A.C. which is why a model T runs better on magneto than battery so I am not sure how the coils would come into the picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 11:51 am:

Thanks G.R., I understand now. This car is a whole new world for me. It is taking a bit to get used to. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 12:00 pm:

Being that you're new to "T"s, and are messing with the starter (and asked for the advice). I'll warn you now, that you MUST REMOVE THE BENDIX from the starter before you ever attempt to remove the starter. Failure to do so will make it very difficult to remove and will damage the mag coil to the point of destruction. Buy the Model T "bible" from one of the suppliers. It will describe nearly every job imaginable in step by step instructions.

For what it's worth, there is nothing so kind to your starter as a 6V battery. Unless you intend to do a lot of night driving and feel you must have 12 headlights, you really don't need 12V.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 12:06 pm:

Brian,

When you wrote:

"..I did pull the starter apart and found a broken spring. It is a 12 volt and this..."

what is 12 volt? The starter? How do you know that?
or were you just referring to the battery?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 12:21 pm:

The car was already converted to 12 volt when I purchased it. I was referring to the battery only, as being a 12 volt, not the starter. I do own the Model T bible and it has helped quite a bit. I did not start reading it until after I tried to remove the starter and it didn't come out easily. I did not try to force it, so I don't think I damaged anything. The starter drive head seems pretty firmly in place, so I have not removed the bendix, since it looked to be in good shape. I welcome any and all suggestions for anything T related. I am very interested in learning! Thanks all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 12:33 pm:

Brian, I know you are new at starting Model T's.
I hope you are moving the "spark" lever on the steering column all the way up to the retard position before engaging the starter. "Failure" to do so will result in the engine trying to spin backwards. This will result in breaking the Bendix spring.
Have Fun


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, June 13, 2014 - 12:44 pm:

I did move the spark level to the top position. I even checked the cap to make sure the lever was adjusted correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 08:06 am:

Happy 4th of July to all. After finally fixing the bendix,, removing my leaking water pump and going back to stock (no pump), I finally had an opportunity to start the vehicle again last night. It appears the motor is not being starved for gas, in fact, it appears to be getting too much. It ran for 20 seconds or so. it was a rough idle like usual. i pulled the plug after it stalled and it was pretty wet. I was able to get it started again and noticed that gasoline was present around the spark plugs. A friend noticed it was "bubbling" when the car was running. Have I found my problem??? Is it a compression issue caused by spark plug threads? These are brand new plugs (Champion x, i think). First I am wondering if this is my problem. Second, how do I fix it? How tight can I wrench these plugs in?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 03:07 pm:

Brian,
A little bubbling around a spark plug will not cause a low compression problem. The amount of leakage is minor when compared to the amount in the combustion chamber. Some people stop the leak and some don't look for leaks there or fix it if they happen to see it leaking, like you. If you want to stop the little leak you see, here is a recent thread:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/432916.html?1395676822

Have you tried adjusting the air/fuel mixture to get it to run better? How about a compression check to check the rings, valves and such?

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 03:23 pm:

Brian, regarding the bubbling around the spark plugs, I used a little teflon tape on mine, worked fine, apparently the plug threads cut through the tape and make a good electrical connection. Some people use aluminum foil instead of teflon tape.

From your latest description, it sounds like the engine is now running too rich. Try turning the carb mixture adjustment 1/4 turn clockwise, then try to start the engine again. If it still runs rough, keep turning the mixture adjustment further clockwise until the engine smooths out. As the engine warms up, you may have to turn the adjustment further clockwise. Once the engine is warmed up, try turning the adjustment first counter-clockwise, then clockwise to find the best operating position.

Here is the mixture adjustment on the carb:

carb

There should be a rod attached to it that runs up under the dash, shown here:

dash

Don't be afraid to play around with the mixture adjustment, you'll get a feel for the best position pretty quickly. Once you find the best position, remember it! You may find that the car won't start when it's cold at that position, you may have to richen the mixture 1/4 turn or so for starting, then lean it back to your best position as the engine warms up. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 04:43 pm:

Brian,
Mark is right about the fuel air mixture but his pictures are for 1923 and earlier.

Your fuel air mixture is also your choke inside the cab and looks like the one in the first link.

http://www.modeltford.com/item/4129B.aspx

My vaporizer carb would not run until I replace the plate in this link. Then it was like a new car.

http://www.modeltford.com/item/6273.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 05:16 pm:

If you choked the carb when you were starting it and it only ran a few seconds, it might still have wet spark plugs. I still think you have a fuel starvation problem. Or it could be extremely rich which could also cause it to stall out. On a 27 the fuel mixture rod is the same as the choke rod. You can turn it in till it bottoms out (don't turn down hard. Just turn gently until it stops) Then back it out about 3/4 turn. That will get you into the ballpark for richness. Set the throttle down about 5 or 6 notches and the spark up all the way. Turn the key to batt. As soon as the engine starts, pull the spark down about 3/4 the way and turn the key immediately to mag. If you are still running coils and the magneto works run the car on mag. If you don't have a working magneto or if you have a distributor or other after market ignition system, continue to run on battery. If you can get the engine to running at all, rotate the fuel mixture rod both ways until you find a spot where it smooths out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 03:05 pm:

I want to thank everyone for their suggestions on this thread. Indeed, the motor was starving for fuel. I was able to alleviate/fix that issue last night and the car fired right up and ran great! I appreciate all the help. As I am new to this, it was very nice having the guidance. I encountered two issues after it started. The first is the magneto does not work. I read up on the threads and will not immediately attempt to fix this. I will run battery for a little while. But I also noticed it running rough. It appears the suction on the air intake was pulling the butterfly closed. I put on old carb spring to the hole in the flapper and attached near the fire wall. That did the trick. Was there supposed to be something there? Not sure, but it is running great now. I am very excited!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 03:55 pm:

Brian,

You need a choke spring. Here is what Lang's has available for 75 cents to $1.25 each:

choke

You can probably get them from the other suppliers, as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 03:59 pm:

A few things to check concerning the magneto:
1. Check for endplay in the crankshaft. Push the clutch down and then go to the front pulley with a large screwdriver pry between the front of the engine and the pulley trying to move the crankshaft forward. Don't pry hard enough to bend anything, just to pry the crankshaft forward, then push the clutch again does the crankshaft move backward again? The endplay would be .004 on a rebuilt engine but if over .015 you could have a magneto problem from the magnets being too far from the coils
2. Check output of magneto from the magneto plug at the top of the hogs head. Do this across a lightbulb. Note there are other posts showing exactly how this is done. You should have over 6 volts AC at idle and higher as the speed of the engine increases. If it is lower, you could try an in car magnet recharge. There are other posts detailing how to do this.

3. Check the resistance from the magneto post to ground. It should be nearly a dead short. If the resistance is high, you might need to replace the magneto post, or it could indicate there is actually no magneto in your car. Some owners have been known to remove the magneto.

Are you running on coils, or do you have a distributor or tru-fire on your car? If you have a distributor or tru-fire, you don't need a working magneto.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, July 11, 2014 - 03:59 pm:

Here is another thread showing a period accessory add-on carb choke spring:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/455633.html?1404128187


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 10:41 am:

"2. Check output of magneto from the magneto plug at the top of the hogs head. Do this across a lightbulb. Note there are other posts showing exactly how this is done. You should have over 6 volts AC at idle and higher as the speed of the engine increases. If it is lower, you could try an in car magnet recharge. There are other posts detailing how to do this."

If you do this use an analogue meter, not a digital one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Saturday, July 12, 2014 - 12:47 pm:

45 seconds, before you pull anything apart, use a small soft plastic hammer and start the car then continually ( gently) tap the carbi bowl, see if you can get the engine running longer than 45 seconds this way, then you have identified which end the blockage is located.
If carb end, you can try compressed air down the tube from fuel tank end and dislodge what ever is in there, (low air press works well ).
{ note - take tube off fuel shut off valve first }
David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian on Sunday, July 13, 2014 - 09:20 am:

Thanks again for more advice. I will be taking the T out today for its first drive since I have owned it. Looking forward to it. I am going to order the carb spring indicated above and complete that easy fix. Next week I will attempt the diagnosis suggestions listed above for the magneto. My T runs on 12 volt. Does that change anything? I assume that just when I test the magneto at idle is should read 12, not 6?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Sunday, July 13, 2014 - 10:52 am:

The magneto is a seperate entity so it's output voltage has no relation whatsoever to the battery voltage.


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