Starter/engine ground cable location

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Starter/engine ground cable location
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 03:21 pm:

I'm in the process of replacing the skinny 2 gauge battery to starter switch to starter cables with 1/0 cable on my '24 touring car. I'm also making a 1/0 battery to frame ground cable. While I'm at it I want to add a ground cable from the starter or or somewhere nearby to the frame. Where is the best place to attach this cable? I'd prefer not to drill extra holes in the frame. I may use the old 2 gauge starter to switch cable for the additional ground cable. I assume that since this cable would provide ground in addition to the engine being bolted to the frame, that the 2 gauge would be sufficient. Or should I make this 1/0 also? I appreciate your advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 04:48 pm:

I used 2-guage. I ran it from one of the bolts that holds the U-joint cover on the back of the engine, to one of the bolts that holds the parking brake quadrant. Be sure to scrape and/or sand the place you will connect, to assure a good connection. Rust and grease don't conduct very well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 09:35 pm:

Thanks Peter, I'll take a look at the quadrant mount and see if that will work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 09:43 pm:

I suggest you use welding cable. Same size but it carries far more current with much less resistance. Meaning you get more volts and amps at the starter. Costs a bit more but the results are worth it.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 10:30 pm:

Why do you suppose you need another cable to connect the starter to ground? The starter - and the engine - have multiple grounding paths. It's pretty ridiculous to imagine another is needed.

What are you thinking?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 07:07 am:

Royce - just trying to give it every advantage. It doesn't hurt anything and may help. I've got the cable so why not?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:07 am:

It's just pointless. I have to say so, because no one has ever had a problem with that before you. You are simply inventing a malady to prescribe a remedy for when no malady exists.

There are a half dozen paths to ground on any Model T engine that are capable of powering the starter. Adding more is not an advantage, it is just extra work and extra weight on the car, and something that will look silly to anyone else who sees it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:30 am:

The question was "Where is the best place to attach this cable?" Not whether I should run one or not. My car, my choice - end of debate. Thanks to those who provided a meaningful response.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:44 am:

I'm with you Steve. I add a ground cable from starter to frame, just to have a solid, continuous electrical connection there. No one has ever told me it looks silly, and those who notice it think it's a good idea. If Royce happens to think it looks silly, I won't lose any sleep over it and neither should you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 10:05 am:

The original ground strap for your car is flat, and it connects to the bolt that holds the battery carrier to the frame. I believe Langs sells this part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 10:26 am:

To learn what works in your car, put a voltmeter between the neg post of the battery and a starter mounting bolt. Cranking the starter will tell you how much voltage/energy you're losing.

Then repeat, putting the voltmeter between the pos post and the starter stud.

An extra cable is in the Can't Hurt department, and may help if the car has been setting a long time and rust builds up at critical points.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 10:53 am:

The way such things work is like this:

Guy decides he can't drive his Model T without adding ground straps from the frame to the engine, from the engine to the generator, and from the generator to the battery. For insurance sake, he adds a second one in each location.

Next, John Regan spots an opportunity, so he spends 12 months of night and weekends making engineering studies, CAD drawings, manufacturing fixtures, a new web page, and packaging. After 4,279 man hours the first twelve kits are shipped to Lang's, and one kit is shipped to Chaffin's.

Don Snyder, sensing a business opportunity, sends pictures of the finished product to China. Four days later 1,000 sets of the parts arrive in Ohio. Upon opening the packages the parts look exactly like the parts from John Regan, but the wires have bamboo instead of copper. Sales are excellent, and since the Model T didn't need all those additional ground wires in the first place, Don Snyder gets fabulously wealthy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 11:06 am:

That would make Nixon happy. More trade with China. More accessory parts for our Model T's.
Everybody is happy.

Do they also make one to use on a Model K?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 11:46 am:

Tell us how you bond all the connections in the current path, Royce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 11:53 am:

Ralph,

I assemble them the way Ford did. The driveshaft for example, is coated in grease before it is inserted in its tube. The universal joint is packed in grease.

The forward engine mount is left unpainted in its bore, and the engine pan snout is unpainted. Both are greased on assembly, because the forward engine mount is also a bearing, and a ground path for the engine.

Likewise the wishbone ball is unpainted, and the inside of the engine pan that accepts the wishbone ball is unpainted. All those parts are assembled with grease before the wishbone cap is secured and safety wired.

The engine pan ears bolt to the frame with two bolts on each side. just one of those bolts would provide sufficient current path for the starter.

The engine pans bolt to the frame with three bolts, and to the engine with four bolts. Again, just one of the engine pans easily provides sufficient ground to carry the draw of the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 12:09 pm:

Throttle cables in modern cars have been know to supply the ground when starting. Then they stick and you have a BIG problem. as Royce has said there are a half dozen paths to ground. The throttle linkage is one. So for safety sake the extra cable is a good idea. Sorry Royce that it was not yours. I good read is Milt Webb,s ideas of getting a T out of moths balls. One of his tips is to loosen one of the starter bolts and retighten. If the bolts rust up the electrical path will look for an eaiser path to ground. If we all owned Royce,s car there would never be a problem caused he told it to be good. These old cars do set for long periods of time, have lots of issues and need plenty of love.
We want to keep our T,s in good shape and running like a watch. So helping them out is a good idea. Thanks Royce for slapping another fellow T,er. We need more like you helping us out. Love, Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 02:11 pm:

I'm often among those who are amused with the manner in which Royce conveys his opinions. I am not defending his style but I do think his message is sound here if one takes the time to think his points through.

The Model T is a hundred year+ old design which has survived into the 21st century very well. The majority of the problems we encounter with the Model T are not necessarily design flaws, but maintenance issues stemming from ignorance of the basic design and the inability to apply sound shop practices to resolve these problems.

By the time Henry Ford installed "modern" electrical systems to the Ford, Ohms law was well understood and the multiple ground paths inherent in the design offered more than adequate redundancy. The question posed here is how do I add more redundancy to the already redundant system, and Royces impatience with that notion has ruffled some feathers. I can see his point and If I were to read into his comment, I might suggest spending the time to ensure the existing grounding points are clean and functioning as designed first before applying a patch to a more than adequate system. In the final analysis, though, It's your car you can do anything to it you wish. However, I think Royce is saying additional redundancy is not necessary and has substantiated his opinion.

Royce is unquestionably an excellent student of the Model T with a clear knowledge of good shop practices. I agree that sometimes he could convey his wisdom in a more diplomatic fashion, but often knowledge comes at a price.

Model T's are fun cars to own and tinker with, but to me even more fun to fully understand and appreciate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 03:32 pm:

How does the current get from the painted frame to the bolt, to the painted pan arm? Did Henry allow for that, or is Gilsonite conductive?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 03:46 pm:

Ralph, that's a fair question, however, assuming new Fords started well with the factory configuration (no bonding from the frame to the starter)? How do you propose that worked?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 03:55 pm:

P**s poor paint job perhaps? Modern's have needed them since rubber motor mounts and rusty T's might need one too. Agree with Royce BUT it won't hurt a darn thing. I'd go from a hogs head bolt right to the same bolt that holds the ground cable. Enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 04:05 pm:

The bolt when tightened will scrape plenty of paint off and make a connection.

In any case there are a dozen or more paths to ground. Even the rustiest T parts, or the most carefully powder coated, will make a ground path that is more than enough, no matter how hard you try to avoid one.

Adding superfluous, useless extra ground straps is only wasting your time and money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 04:23 pm:

And, properly cleaning and maintaining a few of the more critical paths, adding a dab of conductive grease in the process would likely be a better use of ones time and money... not to mention a simple discipline worth becoming a habit when troubleshooting electrical issues on the old Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 06:21 pm:

Its done. I added a ground cable from one of the starter mounting bolts to a quadrant bolt. I cleaned all contact points down to bright steel and put a light coat of dialectric grease to all connections. It didn't cost anything, as I reused the 2 gauge cable removed earlier. Yes it does add a little weight, I'll have to skip a second helping at dinner and call it even. I'll also have to learn to live with the shame of a non-authentic car. Oh well, the only one I need to please is myself.

Thanks again for your advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:30 pm:

OMG. Next thing you are going to tell us is you also added a water pump and an e-timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Sunday, June 08, 2014 - 09:37 pm:

... and the next thing you'll hear is some idiot pulling yer leg, saying he greases up his timer - something which Henry didn't do. The gaul of some folk!

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 07:41 am:

Actually Ford recommended packing the timer with Vaseline Garnet. My grandfather, who died before I was born, used grease in his Model T timers because Vaseline cost twice as much and didn't work as well. Generations of Petersons have done so since.

And now you know the rest of the story.

Here's my grandfather standing in front of his shop The Auto Inn in 1919. He's the guy in the light shirt by the gas pump, the only one in Eagle Bend, Minnesota back then:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 08:32 am:

Awesome picture Royce, with great history to go with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 08:55 am:

I'd like to get a better look at that huge-ass tractor at the far left of the picture! Wow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 08:56 am:

Royce reminds me of a Gunnery Sergeant I had in the Marines. "Gunny" was a gruff, tough, Marine through and through and knew everything there was about combat and Marine protocol. He loved "his" Marine Corps and "his" Marines, but anyone on the outside looking in would never think he thought very highly of us, but only we, who knew him, knew it and we would have followed him anywhere. Though he was colorful in both his personality and the language he used to convey his opinions and wishes, he wasn't always the most diplomatic person there ever was, but there was no one in my life that taught me more on how to be a good Marine and a good man than he and I respected him for it.

I feel the same way about Royce. I respect him, his experience, his knowledge and his obvious dedication to us and our hobby and we are lucky to have him share what he has learned over many many years and even generations of family involvement in Model T's. He could easily write us all off and do his own thing and might be happier to do so, as unappreciated as he probably feels sometimes, but he continues to try and help even though it seems like many of you don't want his help. Just because some of you don't like the way Royce presents his arguments does not make his arguments less valid. Sometimes I think that just because it comes from Royce, many of you reject it outright, but if the same idea were to he presented by someone else in a more diplomatic and less authoritarian manner that you would gladly accept the advice and follow it.

All I'm saying is to try and look past the, sometimes, abrasive manner Royce's advice is presented and accept it in the context in which it was presented. Royce has only the good of the hobby and Model T at heart and I feel there is no one who cares more for the hobby than he does. I might say he is the most knowledgeable and experienced contributor to the forum but I won't, because I can't know that for sure, but I do know he is right up there with the most knowledgeable of all the members and, I for one, will continue to gladly take his advice, just as I, as a young Marine, gladly took the advice of my Gunny, with the knowledge that he only had my best interest at heart.

Semper Fi.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 09:13 am:

Has the date for the wedding been set?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 09:59 am:

Jim, Do you feel the same about Rob? He also has helped the T world with countless hours pouring over old newspapers and old invoices. He has spent a lot of money bringing back to life his cars also. So is it alright to kick him in the n**s and make fun of him? Or someone who is low on money and uses a water pump to get by? Do we need to rate the T owners as first, second and third rate? Helping is great, putting down is not. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 10:29 am:

Jim, thank you for your service.

As a former Army EM and NCO, then officer (OCS), Airborne Ranger, Armor and Infantryman, there is nothing about Royce's presentation nor style that warrants any comparison with the hundreds of dedicated military men and women I served with in my opinion.

This thread began with a fellow hobbyist asking for specific advice. Now it has morphed into this thing of beauty. And why, because Royce had to condemn another hobbyist, then follow up with a photo to show (prove) his legacy. Doesn't that seem a little strange?

Yes, Royce offers advice, often good (and often not), but at what price?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 10:47 am:

Kenneth.

I'm already married :-).

I respect Rob for what he does and for what he contributes to the Model T Forum and for the passion that he has for the K and while his posts are educational regarding the K and this is the best site for him to post them, since there is no site for the Model K car, I must admit that I stopped reading them because I am not that interested in the Model K.

As for the relationship between Rob and Royce, since you brought it up... what goes on between them is none of my business, but from what I've seen, I don't consider Rob a poor helpless victim. Rob gives as well as he takes. I do get the impression that Royce is of the opinion that since this is a Model T site, posts regarding the Model K are out of place here and that whenever Rob posts, many members are unable to contribute to the thread and that the only purpose of Rob's posts on his Model K is to educate members on the Model K, which is great for those that are interested...so, I don't agree that there is no room on this site for the Model K posts. I think Rob has every right to post here regarding his K, as it is a beautiful car and the K was instrumental to Ford in the eventual evolvement into the T.

Not everyone is going to get along, especially between 2 people with strong passions, personalities and opinions, but they can still respect each other without really liking one another and it would help if others stayed out of the fray without taking sides and adding to the rancor. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 10:53 am:

Thank you Rob. I respect you and all that you have done to inform us on the Model K. It is because of you that I learned that the model K is a really beautiful, elegant Ford. I would like to one day hear one and see it drive. Do you suppose you could make a video of your K, do a walk around start it and drive it?

Steve sorry for the drift. Now, back to the original question.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 11:10 am:

Welcome back, Rob :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 11:28 am:

Did Henry leave the paint off around the pan ear bolts to assure a good ground, beginning in 1919?

Or did he just gamble there would be a good ground somewhere?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 11:55 am:

When I restored my '26 T coupe and had it all disassembled, I painted everything separately. The engine pan, the hogshead, the frame and even the bolts, so if anyone should have had a grounding problem it should have been me, but after I assembled the car, it started up great and no grounding problem ensued. I suppose it is because, even if the mating surfaces are painted and gasketed, there is still the issue of the threaded bolts making steel to steel contact and the tightened bolt heads and nuts and or lock washers digging into the paint enough to expose the bare steel, but I can see where, if someone is worried about it, it won't really hurt anything to run an extra ground or two, just to be sure and for peace of mind. Just be sure that the wires are thick enough and will handle the load, so as not to cause another, more serious problem. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 12:08 pm:

Jim,My post was to you and only you! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 02:51 pm:

I believe if you take any word I posted, or combination of words, or entire paragraphs, you will find no evidence that I have condemned anyone in the above exchange of words Rob.

You constantly mischaracterize things that I say, and play the hapless victim exceptionally well in order to become the object of pity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 03:39 pm:

I've missed you too......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 06:11 pm:

I enjoy and learn alot from Royce's posts about Model T's. Its good to have someone knowing what they are talking about for the future of the hobby. Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, June 09, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

If you say to Steve, 'What are you thinking?', then you have made every effort you can to belittle the man who is only asking for advice. Some of us would call that condemned.

Just because generations of Peterson's have done something one way does not make it the best method. I guess Royce just has to brag about something.

Hey Steve, if it works for you and you are happy with it, then it pleases me too. No shame in that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:02 am:

Dave,

Some day you should share with us any thing that might be considered helpful advice. All of us would be surprised.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 07:49 am:

I think they're two sides of the same coin - one guy listing off everything on his DD214 is as superfluous as the other guy and his family tree - and equally tedious.

There are two other threads running now that I cannot help but think about as I read this one. One thread was started by a gentlemen who recently bought a stunning '27 coupe for wife. Proudly posting pictures of said car, his efforts were met with compliments by most - and the usual petty nitpicking by a few (my favorite was the enormously insightful "horn is on the wrong side." Really??!!).

The other thread I'm thinking about is a 16-year old who recently acquired a delivery truck that he is going to restore with his Dad. What must that young man be thinking as he reads some of the comments on here? The petty sniping, the self-satisfied posturing as "experts", the bickering, the snarky mocking that greets many of the questions posted - the general unfriendly and downright hostile nature that characterizes so many of the threads is enough to turn any young person off.

I've been around this "hobby" for 40 years now. The social media platforms (things like this forum, the Ford Barn and a myriad of other sites) have opened it up to thousands and are a powerful tool to sustaining the hobby into the future. They are equally powerful in killing it by giving a world-wide stage to some of the more prickly characters who feel they need to showcase their self-assessed superiority. Guys - take it (your DD214s, your genealogy studies, your unsolicited criticisms, your snark) elsewhere - you are killing us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

This thread has been both informative and entertaining. I can only add that I would bet the farm that the exact same words, spoken in person, would absolutely not sound the same as they do in our heads as we read them here in print. Each of us hearing our own version differently in our own heads too, by the way.

As always, YMMV


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 03:00 am:

Getting back to the grounding part of this thread, some years ago my "everyday" car was a '46 Che. . . .T. Car started quite nicely when cold, but when warm, it was hit or miss--most of the time, one had to wait for it to cool off. I rebuilt the starter, no change, Rebuilt the starter with "high torque field coils (used on that make when fitted with an automatic tranny. Fortunately there was still a starter/generator rebuilding shop in town & the guy really knew his stuff. No change. Shortly before getting the car ready to sell (moving up to a more modern machine--right now, I can't really tell you why!) I took off the ground cable to check it, and noticed the engine block where it bolted on was well-painted. Hmmm--cleaned off the paint, bolted cable back on, problem gone!! So bolt and lock washer were not enough to provide the needed solid electrical connection! had a good enough connection to run the starter, just not good enough when the engine was warm, and tighter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:11 pm:

Hmmmm,......I've been away from the forum for a period of time due to involvement in complicated family issues. Seems that the "R&R debates" are back. I respect both parties involved but wish they'd quit the "debates",...(if that is the right word).

As to the "ground" issues,.... over the years, I've heard many times, from many old and experienced "car guys" that I respect, that a very large percentage of automotive electrical "issues" are simply due to "poor ground", for a variety of reasons. It has always served me well to keep that in mind, and I've been guilty of installing an extra ground cable or two myself,.....and as far as I know, it may not have helped, but is sure never hurt anything. FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:43 pm:

Harold, both Royce and I could give you lots of examples of grounding issues in aircraft, also. That's the last place most people look.

I'm still waiting for the answer where Henry might have left bare metal to bare metal to make a good bond from frame to engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:45 pm:

Repost since Ralph apparently missed it:

Ralph,

I assemble them the way Ford did. The driveshaft for example, is coated in grease before it is inserted in its tube. The universal joint is packed in grease.

The forward engine mount is left unpainted in its bore, and the engine pan snout is unpainted. Both are greased on assembly, because the forward engine mount is also a bearing, and a ground path for the engine.

Likewise the wishbone ball is unpainted, and the inside of the engine pan that accepts the wishbone ball is unpainted. All those parts are assembled with grease before the wishbone cap is secured and safety wired.

The engine pan ears bolt to the frame with two bolts on each side. just one of those bolts would provide sufficient current path for the starter.

The engine pans bolt to the frame with three bolts, and to the engine with four bolts. Again, just one of the engine pans easily provides sufficient ground to carry the draw of the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Spaziano, Bellflower, CA. on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:47 pm:

So, anyway.....Tim Wrenn said "I'd like to get a better look at that huge-ass tractor at the far left of the picture! Wow."

Tim, I believe that the tractor may just be a Rumley Oil-Pull. They were very unique in that Rumleys had two large oil tanks. One located at the upper front which the smoke stack passed through, and another tank located at the lower rear under the operator's platform.

The main reason for this configuration is for traction. The operator could transfer oil from the front tank to the rear, or vice-versa depending on where the weight was needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 01:52 pm:

I think you are right Mike - here's a Rumely Oil Pull that looks similar:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 03:53 pm:

"The forward engine mount is left unpainted in its bore, and the engine pan snout is unpainted. Both are greased on assembly, because the forward engine mount is also a bearing, and a ground path for the engine."

How is the engine mount bonded to the frame?

"Likewise the wishbone ball is unpainted, and the inside of the engine pan that accepts the wishbone ball is unpainted. All those parts are assembled with grease before the wishbone cap is secured and safety wired."

What is the current path from the wishbone to the frame?

"The engine pan ears bolt to the frame with two bolts on each side. just one of those bolts would provide sufficient current path for the starter."

A bolt by itself is not a bond, and its shoulder is not guaranteed to penetrate the paint to make a bond.

"The engine pans bolt to the frame with three bolts, and to the engine with four bolts. Again, just one of the engine pans easily provides sufficient ground to carry the draw of the starter."

What percentage of Ts have engine pans?
-------

Unless you have a metal to metal faying surface, you don't have a bond. It appears that any bonding in the T was accidental, and not designed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 04:29 pm:

I still have what appears to be the original battery ground cable on my car and it works fine. I have 4 volts remaining during starter cranking which is plenty. Even when all my wiring was original, it worked correctly. The only effect you create by making changes is that one day, some poor bugger is going to have to undo all your clown car modifications but hey, it's your car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 05:50 pm:

The cable from battery to frame is only one link in the chain.

I'd like to see a pic of your cable, especially the ends, Dave. I don't think I've ever seen an original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 06:26 pm:

This is the battery ground cable (5049), 9 5/16" long, that was on an early '23 frame, all original, this ground used prior to later calendar '24.

The ground then became (5049B) a Ground Connector (strap style) of copper metal, and that went on thru the end of production.




battery terminal only fits the small 6v (-) post.


Secured to frame with battery bracket to frame bolt, and nut and cotter.

Ford Service mentions to be sure to remove paint on the frame for a good ground.



Below is photo from Ford Service showing the Ground Connector, p/n 5049B.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 09:50 pm:

Ok Ralph, here it is. My original battery cable. Looks just like the one Dan posted so, I guess it's original, debates are welcome of course. All the wiring in the car looked like this or worse when I got the car yet somehow still worked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 10:04 pm:

Thanks Dan and Dave. It's amazing how little that design has changed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Byrne - Racine, MN on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 10:14 pm:

This OT post relates to Royce's earlier OT post with the photo of his Grandfather in 1919. That large tractor in the background is a 40-80 Avery. Below are some photos and information on a tractor like that. Speaking from experience, they are a real beast to maintain and operate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 10:17 pm:

No trouble. Looks like someone bolted mine to the wrong spot though. It's bolted to the battery bracket instead of the frame as in Dan's pic. I think I will look at my frame and see if I can find a more correct spot. I guess this is why the new ground strap in my wiring kit wouldn't reach the battery terminal which is why I'm still running the original. It ain't broke so I hate to fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Spaziano, Bellflower, CA. on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 11:18 pm:

Roger,

I believe you are correct. The tractor in the photo posted by Royce does, in fact, look more like an Avery than a Rumley

All the Rumleys that I have seen had a square tank on the front. Upon closer inspection, the assembly at the front of the tractor in Royce's photo is definitely round, not square. I stand corrected.

Thank you for posting those photos.

Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - 11:45 pm:

Ralph, I haven't seen health update on you lately. How have you been doing? Great to see you so active on the forum. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 01:08 am:

Thanks for asking, Jim. I have been waiting for the results of my latest breathing capacity test to say much. That's the weak link in my chain. I drove the ol' brass picup for maybe the last time yesterday. I went a couple of miles to rob an ATM. Even with 10:1 steering, it takes a little more strength than the modren mushmobile.

Besides this Forum and going to VA medics, I watch a lot of tv now. I've even been watching a little hockey. I've stopped losing weight, so my prospects aren't as dire as six months ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 03:03 am:

Ralph,
Thank you for the update.

Jim,
Thank you for asking the question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 07:33 am:

Great to see you out and about and doing the things you enjoy most. I hate to think that is the last time you'll be driving that beautiful pickup. When we are ill, doing the things we love most, that make us the most happy often contribute to our recovery. I hope you continue to stabilize and feel better and hopefully are starting on the path to recovery. Miracles do happen. Keep enjoying life and getting the most out of it you can. Our prayers are with you. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 10:58 am:

Thanks, guys. My younger son drives me around in it, so it's not abandoned.


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