hey everyone! this is my first post so here it goes,My name is Cale, im 16 years old, recently learned how to operate and drive a model T and i just bought a 1922 delivery truck for my dad and I to restore. Last year my grandpa passed away and we recently sold his huge collection of cars, and I had been working a lot up there on model T's and I have come to love them. he had several model T's at the auction and we ended up buying a 1922 model T delivery truck. the truck had not been run since 1952(we think) and by the end of the auction, I had it running. we are currently making it safe to go to our local car show, then the actual restoration process will begin. we figured out that the body was made by a Hercules body manufacturing company, however we have no clue what this truck was intended to haul. anyways, if I remember too, I will post pictures and keep you guys updated!
Hey Cale congratulations,
Did you buy that at the Zanesville auction?
I was interested in that but it would have ended up on my long project list. I am glad to see someone young and enthusiastic now owns it. I live about an hour and fifteen away from you. If you need help or have questions let me know. I teach woodworking and will be glad to offer help or advice to you.
Hi, Cale -- Congratulations on your purchase. We need pictures!!!
I restored an original-bodied Hercules Delivery recently. Here it is when I first dragged it into my shop.
This one was a '21, but it was produced just a couple of days before the '22 model year began. Our Deliveries might be brothers.
Yes Tom i did! and if i need help i will contact you. Mike, i tried to upload a few pictures but they exceeded the 200KB size so it didnt work. i will try different ones. yours looks better than mine for being just dragged into the shop. mine is almost identical, but the roof goes to the tail of the truck, covers the bed area. the best thing about the T is the engine, its in amazing condition. no lip at the top of the cylinder or anything. and very clean.
well, i cant post pictures. none of my pictures are below 200 kilobytes.
Cale, Yes ,another TT truck guy, you almost got me sitting here thinking about building my other 1923 TT truck and getting a Hercules body . Big time History. Enjoy se
it was a great time in history, if only i knew what mine hauled... did some more work on it tonight, ran it again after cleaning the head, block, exhaust ECT. ran great! our biggest pickle right now is tires, and our radiator and hood predicament. we have a tall radiator and a low firewall, so a hood that will fit it doesnt exist. soon though, we will have a short radiator to solve the problem.
Just use www.picresize.com and you can reduce your pictures in size so that we can see them. I find it takes longer to do one at a time, but it seems to work better that way. Reduce to only 25% of the original image size and it should work just fine. Just try one for now and then you are on your way to being a fun member of the forum.
not very pretty. yet...
Welcome to the affliction, Cale! You may be awfully young for such a lifelong affliction. However, it will just give you more time to enjoy one of the best hobbies on Earth. Antique automobiles in general, and model Ts in particular, can connect a person to all of history in a way nothing else can. There is no way to explain it.
I'll bet your grandpa is proud! Your dad too.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I have a photo copy of your purchase on my workshop wall wear I am restoring a TT with a body somewhat similar to your T. I saw the auction piccies and liked the body style so your delivery might just have a bigger cousin downunder. Best of luck great to see a young T restorer.
Need some new glass - I can't tell from that picture but if it hasn't been driven since '52 that's probably not safety glass.
Cool truck - not that you asked but the less you clean it the more people will like it. It has great patina. There are some great threads for making a T safe to drive after it has sat a long time - they are definitely worth the read.
Also, I don't believe that even a very worn T engine will have a lip in the cylinder at the top - the piston pushes up too high for there to be a lip (might be wrong on that, but I believe it's been discussed before).
Great project, if the wood isn't rotted you may consider leaving it with the exterior unrestored?
As Seth says, ridges never form in T cylinders with original pistons, original wide piston rings goes right to the top of the cylinders. Fooled me into believing my first T engine wasn't much driven, bought std alu pistons at a swap & learned soon the cylinders actually were worn enough for a 0.030" bore.. You might be luckier being able to run it with just some honing and a new set of rings?
when we took the head off, i noticed that the pistons went above the top of the cylinder wall and i didn't quite understand that either, but i dint question my father. as far as safety Seth, so far we have, put brakes on it, replaces the brake lever and ratchet holder, put new pins(i cant remember what they are) and shackles in the front suspension, getting new tires, got new spark plug wires, re-doing the water system, made sure the ground cable actually makes contact and cleaning a lot of contacts. there is more MISC stuff but its minor stuff.
Don't forget those babbit washers in the rear end.
Welcome to the hobby Cale! Sure wish I had the opportunity when I was that young. Happy for you. We're practically neighbors....I'm North of you, just about 12 miles South of Cedar Point, I'm sure you've been there a time or two! Neat looking truck, looks like you are fortunate enough to have four demountables, whereas my TT firetruck has the larger rims with the infamous lock ring. Had to buy new ones when I replaced the tires. Mucho dinero!
It wasn't long after I got my first one, I realized I needed another, and another...then adopted the saying "Model Ts are like Lays Chips...you can't have just one!" So plan on it!
I figured out how to shrink my pics from my computer file by right clicking on them and then hit "edit" and then found "resize" and it seemed to work. Not the best pic quality, but it at least worked.
Enjoy your truck!
got the tires today! will get them mounted and see if the truck even moves... forgot to mention that we inherited a fully restored 1914 model T roadster from my grandpa. i havent drove that one yet, but i will soon enough.
also, what are babbit washers?
Excellent question. This tells all: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
Babbit Washers are fit spacers that position the differential contained in the rear axle. These become brittle and will disintegrate without warning. Failure to replace these outdated washers with modern bronze equivalents can have severe and tragic consequences. I would not drive a model T on a public road without confirming that these parts have been properly replaced, preferably by a seasoned mechanic. This mechanical work is not rocket science, but can be a challenge to someone not familiar with shop practices and not familiar with the T rearend.
Whoops...Apologies for the echo Steve.
No hay problema, Scott. I'd better watch out. Some woman gave me hell for using Spanish on Facebook. When I pointed out that FB is worldwide and people post on it in lots of languages, then she really got nasty.
Cale, if you don't already have them you want these: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html. They can save you some grief and expense.
so basically they are spacers to keep the axle centered in the housing? on both sides im assuming. is this something that wears with time or wears with miles driven?
All of the above Cale....and these can simply shatter like porcelain. The result is rearend failure which equals braking failure, unless you have auxiliary brakes. Not worth the risk for 30.00 in parts.
reporting back from the garage. one axle has some slop in it. we didnt thnik it was enough to mean a bad washer, but for 30 bucks, when we restore it, we will replace them even if i have to hold my dad down to buy them.
seems like this is what we need, sooner or later,
we have actually ordered several parts from langs old car parts. great parts and great prices!
Here's what the babbit washer looks like before it goes.
When you open up a rear axle you sometimes find them looking like this:
In this picture the small fragment in the center is what's left of the thrust washers. Note the condition of the bolts, broken thrust plates, bearings, axle shafts, etc. Without those washers centering the differential, all sorts of inconvenient things can result. This looks like a case of "Ignore that noise and keep driving."
Yes, that's the part. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but if you get into that rear axle and find it hasn't been rebuilt recently enough to have the bronze washers in it you may need to replace some other parts too. Just follow Glen's axle book and measure everything so you know what's OK and what's not.
Great looking truck Cale. Get it running and put it to work! I bought my first TT last December to use as a workhorse on the property. Later, thinking about it, it was about 1/3 the cost of a Kubota or John Deere RTV with a bed, way easier to work on, and so much more fun! "Mr. T" and I work around the farm at least twice a week. Here he is helping me clean up a fallen tree. I know everyone has their preferences, but I am always looking for more-or-less unrestored vehicles. Mr. T. had been painted a while back...maybe in the 90's. I'm stripping the paint off it's stakes in back to get back to the original wood. My point being you could fix it up and make it look brand new if you want...that would look awesome! Or you could clean up the wood and treat it with boiled linseed oil, which will darken it and show off its original paint. That would look awesome too. Question though....is it a T or a TT?
Cale's vehicle is a T. Splash aprons, long running boards, T rear wheels.
I like that working TT. I hope my TT project will eventually be ready to use like that. I have plenty of yard work for it to do.
Steve, that's what I thought...wasn't for sure if there were TT's made with running boards and splash aprons. Cale, you'll be happy its not a TT since you want to drive into town! My truck tops out around 18 mph so it doesn't really leave the property. Mine also has its original glass, which I'm not replacing because I like how wavy it is...But again, not leaving the property. If I were driving it out on the roads with all the text-and-drivers, I'd replace all my glass.
OK, back from the garage again. got a half hour of run time on it to check things out and to seal gaskets. here are the problems we found. 1: it only runs smoothly(at idle) when the spark advance is all the way down, it wont go any further, but it will still run without that. 2: it does not like higher throttle. anything above a high idle is sketchy and the engine doesn't like it. we are thinking its the carburetor and since its so simple and we have a spare, i am going to take it apart and clean it and re-build it. we just think the jet may be plugged and wont get enough gas for anything above a high idle. 3: water coming from the tops of the head bolts. EEK! is that bad? normal? we just replaced the head gasket and most of the plumbing and we didnt know if it was normal. the head is torqued to about 42 LBS with a torque wrench. 4: still no magneto. there is either a bad connection, post isnt touching or the magneto is just old and worn out. 5: hmmm. we will find out later. good things. fuel tank is very clean, transmission does work, no bad noises from the rear axle, both mechanical and engine brakes work and the starter... we were surprised. it is by far the best 6 volt starter we have seen on any car we have or have worked on. easily spins that T right over! more good and bad things will come with time. plan to drive and test in the driveway for the first time tomorrow. will keep you guys updated.
Cale, I spent a hour each night and maybe a bit more, although winter and then some , and worked full time , horse shoer, now, but was past Master auto Tech, I've worked on the T and lap top or iPhone by my side and this Forum with all the cool guys put that TT of mine , actually two of them into the night and figured out the bugs from a TT ,TT was a pile of rust that no one would attempt to get running , and it's a driver today and worth huge Dollars . Not for sale. So here you go with support all over the World. MTOA, and Model T international
1: Not sure I understand the description; 2: Sounds like fuel starvation somewhere (line, float valve, etc,). You don't have a filter on it do you? 3: Yes, bad. Not normal. Usual torque is 50-55, but even at 42 it shouldn't leak. Did you Copper Coat both sides of the gasket? 4: Even with too much gap and weak magnets, there should be some output. If you're getting nothing at all from the magneto I suspect a loose or broken connection somewhere.
Its always a good idea to know exactly what you have, just because a car is together does not mean things are Ok.
When I bought my restored 1911 T nearly 50 years ago I was told by the previous owner everything on the car had been fully restored. Well it may have been pulled apart and put back together but it sure was not all that great.
I had to rework or renew several parts (including the diff thrust washers)
If you want to get in and drive your car its always good to know in your mind exactly what condition all the major parts are. If something is not correct and it fails you not only have to replace it but often the damage done could wreck the component.
I have always suggested to new owners, pull the main parts down, and satisfy yourself that they are good, a lot better than having something ( such as the thrust washers) collapse not only bringing the car to a stop but also trashing the gears in the diff.
You will also be far more familiar with the cars workings and more confidant to do repairs in the future.
Steve, what i mean is, the engine will run kinda chopy at idle. then if i put the spark as far down as it can possibly go, it smooths out very nicely. the problem with this is, if i need to advance the spark any further with higher throttle, i cant.
We need more picture of the engine! =) Most likely you just need to adjust your timer rod. While taking pictures make sure you get one of the timer - it probably needs to be removed, cleaned up, and oiled.
Highly recommend that you either have the coils currently in the T rebuilt - or just buy some new ones (already rebuilt and ready) and turn in your old ones as cores. The Coil Dr. and Ron the Coil Man are both excellent. This can make a huge difference in the way the engine runs.
If you did not use copper spray on the head gasket, I would carefully remove the bolts and the head and then get a flashlight, a bottom tap, and something pointy to scrape out each of the head bolt holes. You might be torque-ing to 42 ft-lbs but if there is any crud in the head bolt holes, the bolts will be bottoming out before they've really squeezed the head to the block. Use your bottom tap and pointy object to clean the threads and scrape out the junk from the bottom, then use an air compressor to blow out the stuff from in there.
While you are rebuilding the carb you need to go back to your gas tank and remove the sediment bulb and clean it out - it can get clogged with junk from the gas tank (especially if you put new gas that has ethanol in it, it will eat the varnish off the inside of the tank and clog the bulb and the carb). This is also a good time to replace the copper fuel line with a steel one - steel brake line from any auto parts store is an excellent replacement. The copper work hardens as it vibrates and will eventually crack.
This is all just the tip of the iceberg! There's so much stuff to do and look at and check and clean and rebuild, heck, I'M excited and it's not even my T!!
Sounds like normal starting to me:
Just to be sure, check and/or set the timing.
1. Disconnect the rod from the timer.
2. Remove #1 plug.
3. With ignition off, put a thumb over the hole and pull up on the crank until you feel compression building.
4. Continue turning until the crank pulley pin is horizontal (TDC).
5. Turn on the ignition (switched to BAT).
6. If the coils buzz, turn the timer counterclockwise just until they stop. If they don't buzz, turn the timer clockwise just until they start, then back off a hair until they stop.
7. If the rod doesn't reach its hole in the timer after you've done this, bend it until it does.
8. Reassemble, start, and drive.
so it seems like its a timing issue. i will look into that if the carb re-build doesnt fix it.
I still lean toward fuel starvation, but it won't hurt to check/set the timing too.
OK so, the new carb had no affect. so i decided to take my coil packs out and clean the contacts and points. well, he coil packs were in the box so tight one pack has a hole in it now(we have spares) also, what is the distance between the points supposed to be? also, is there a way to tell the coils strength? do louder coils have more power than the quieter ones? or does it even matter?
as of now, it still doesnt like higher RPM's
seems as if minor changes have major effects...
See pages 39-46 in the MTFCA Electrical System book. You do have the book, don't you?
no, i dont sadly. i forgot to mention that the car show is only a mile away. so thats why im not too concerned about some things. cahnged two coils out last night and cleaned all four. also, did steves timing procedure. we figured that when #1 was TDC that it should be buzzing... wrong. turns out, the timing is pretty close. it will run at higher RPM's now, but its still chopy. we will get it eventually.
Cale - definitely get some fresh coils from Ron the Coil Man or the Coil Dr. It will really help the way the engine runs.
Adjusting the coils isn't something you want to fool with without a Strobospark or HCCT.
hey, whoa. could it be i'm not the youngest guy around anymore?
Where and when is the car show? I am over in Cambridge maybe I'll drive over. I'll introduce myself if I go.
There was somebody younger a couple of years ago but they ran him off because he didn't exist.
I'm with Seth on coils. On a first effort like this I'd send them to Ron or Brent rather than mess with them myself, and leave learning all about them for a later time.
here Greg https://www.facebook.com/TripleNickelCruiseIn
after the car show, and we start the actual restoration we will get some new coils or send the old ones in for repair.
hmm. i figured there were more of us "youngsters" in this hobby...
I also keep Ron's coils rebuilt in my trailer email@example.com
Cale, when you get a good set of coils, DON'T mess with them! They can't be set accurately by ear or with feeler gauges. Dave
got several pictures, but im not sure if i want to resize all of them. if i remember, i will make a video tomorrow of what we have replaced, what we are doing, and what we are going to replace or fix.
You may be able to resize entire batches of photos depending on which program you use. In any case, please post them here.
got some video of the truck itself, and it running. video will be up soon.
everyone, pleas watch this video. it covers everything we did and will do.
plus. it drives! tested it tonight. all functions work. engine brake is worn down a bit, same for reverse, but drive characteristics are great!.
Cale - Very cool ride! You are on the right track, nothing like learning while doing. Keep up the good work!
That lever thing on the firewall is for the choke, The slots are for a wire that pulls the lever for the choke and the other slot is for a thin rod for the carb' mixture.
i am still watching the video. If you can't find a radiator you could do what i did, make a hood that fits a low firewall and high rad'. It'll be unique. Those sheet metal parts look ok to me but that's just my taste. So you are undecided on paint or stain? If you stain it first you can paint it later, If you paint it first staining it is a big more work so if you get the stain cheap or free it won't seem so bad if you have to paint over it. Pretty fun looking truck.
Loved the you tube video. Just my opinion on paint vs stain. In order to get stain to look good, you will have to remove and sand away all traces of paint. If there are rotten spots that require filler, the stain will not look good over filler. No filler on the market looks like wood, it all looks like.....filler.
Paint allows you to develop a theme or reproduce a business vehicle from that era. Color attracts more attention. I think most stained vehicles like this I have seen have been rebuilds or modern homemade. A brightly colored produce truck for example, would attract more attention than stained. My friend has a RED Strohs beer truck much like this, and everyone flocks to it (Maybe not just the color) BUT it looks better red than stain would. It is a period correct original.
More than likely this vehicle has always been painted.
Just my 2 cents on that.
Still thinking it's a great project. Redoing the whole body in oak kind of reduces its value in my view, but you can of course restore your car just as you like it
After carefully measuring it up and making a copy of the body you could consider selling the whole old body as it is to someone who appreciate the original survivor look?
If you do sell it, I am interested.
Definitely sell that body if you are planning to discard it. Lift it off and sell it. There are plenty of guys not interested in the look of new wood with fresh stain that would love to have and repair an original body. That body took 90 years to make and there is a huge population of people that want to see age on a car, myself included. Sell it to Tom!
Adding to the rear axle discussion, here are 3 different thrust washers. On the left, an old reproduction set. I like the spiral grooves, looks like they were cast, though. .187 thick. Brand new set, in the middle, .199 thick. An original ford script Babbitt? Mixture, .207 thick.
i want to paint it, my parents want to( i said stain, but actually meant, just clearcoat. pure oak color) clearcoat it. the body is much worse than it looks. there are hidden surprises we found and its almost impossible for us to restore the old wood. its so rotten, warped and brittle im worried that it will crumble to pieces when we lift it off the frame. also, when we replace the wood, we will be replacing all of the wood with a brand new delivery body. same style, just made of new safer wood. i really want to do the body in the same wood the original bodies were made from.by the way, what is the original wood on these? poplar? and paint it in either a basic blue, red, green, yellow or black color. no dark color no light color. just (for example) blue or red. not dark blue or light red, blue. thats what i want to do. i want it to have color.
Irfanview can batch resize pictures. www.irfanview.com. Great free tool, but it might take a little playing around to learn how to use it.
clothes hangers work as great choke rods
Great Yankee ingenuity Cale!
Welcome to the club Cale, guess what John Saylor and I are no longer the youngest members, anyways these guys are great resources and will always give advice. But as a warning there are three things that you don't want to bring up waterpumps,the best type of bands, and the best type of oil.