I live in Florida, so it does get hot down here. I am in the process of replacing the starter gasket and bendix spring. I noticed that the water pump has a small leak as well. In reading on this, did this vehicle even come with a water pump on 1927? It doesn't appear so, and if not needed, I was thinking of just removing it and using the metal pipe. I would love any and all thoughts on this. Thanks.
Brian I am in Jax My 27 does not have a water pump and the model T's did not come with one If your cooling system is in good operating condition you shouldn't need one
Upon visual inspection, it appears to be in good shape. Is there some sort of pressure test or other test I need to conduct in order to rule out any sort of issues? Thanks G.R.
And...Here we go!!!!
Take it off, and remove the thermostat inside the upper water outlet if it has one. Water pumps were not original, and were mostly installed to try to cure a cooling problem. It's a Band-Aid solution, that doesn't attack the cause of the problem.
If, after removing it, you have a cooling problem, you will need to address it. They can be caused by a radiator that is either clogged or the fins are loose from the tubes, or crud inside the engine block.
You will, of course, receive lots of other opinions -- hence my statement at the top of this post.
And, unless you like to read endless conflicting opinions, please don't ask what kind of oil to use, or what kind of bands are best. Those two questions, along with the water pump question, are the unholy trinity. You'll never hear the end.
Use any oil - they're all better than any oil available in 1927. Cheap is good. Use what you use in your modern car, or Wal-Mart's cheapest. 5-W-30 is good for Florida, but almost any weight will do.
Wood or Kevlar bands are best, but you have to be careful to properly adjust them.
That's my triad of opinions. Let the fun begin!!
Oh, and before you ask - use the same anti-freeze and the same mixture you use in your other car.
Do not pressure test! The Model T is not pressurizes and you can do more harm to the radiator if too much pressure is used. Take the water pump off and try without. If it gurgles when you shut down that is normal. If it runs hot, then put it back on and enjoy the ride.
You may find the water level in your radiator likes to be at a different spot without the pump, maybe a little lower. As long as the top plate in the upper tank has about an 1 inch of water over it, should be good.
Depending on the whim of the moment, I run a water pump, or not!
T radiators are zero pressure the overflow tube in the radiator will not let it build up pressure the biggest problems are the block needs flushing and the radiator fins should be tight against the tubes if the fins are coming loose then the radiator will not cool efficiently
this old thread has hints on flushing
No pressure test, at least on the radiator. It wasn't built for pressure. Some of us are very adamant (enthusiastic?) in pointing out that the T came without a pump and doesn't need it if the stock cooling system is in good condition. Guys in this camp will tell you that the only thing it's good for is slinging grease all over the engine compartment or serving as a wheel chock. Several of them might make a good boat anchor. Others will point out that they use it as a Band-Aid for their cooling problem until they can afford a new radiator.
Thoroughly clean out your cooling system. I can go into more detail if you need it. Then try running the stock set-up (without pump). If overheating rears its annoying head, it may be time for a new radiator. After many decades of vibration, sometimes the metal fins separate from the tubes. Without that metal to metal contact, the radiator doesn't radiate anymore.
Remember guys be gentle he is a new member and we don't wish to frighten him, Brian welcome to the affliction
Royce must be out to lunch.
The hardest decision for me would be, do I throw it in the Atlantic or the Gulf of Mexico. I don't live near either so I use mine as a wheel chock as do other members.
Model T's are pretty tough considering that they have been around for close to a hundred years BUT radiators and necessary things do wear out.
I have used water pumps in the past but after buying a new radiator that is what made all the difference.
So much for the water pumps in my opinion.
Do a flush job on the cooling system when you remove the water pump. Clean out your old radiator and if still gets to hot its time for a replacement radiator better yet a new one.
You will be amazed on the performance of your T with a new radiator.
Thank you all. It is pretty clear I need to remove and discard the water pump. I live near the gulf, so that answers that question. One last question, what would be the tell tale sign that the engine is overheating. Will I see smoke, shut down, etc? I am new to this and clearly there is no temperature gauge. Thanks.
Brian -- You can buy a motometer from any of the vendors, or borrow one from a friend.
I am always out to lunch!
Model T's will spit out the water they don't need so they seek their own level. Once they do that they should not steam but when you shut them off they tend to percolate so it sounds like they are too hot but that is not the case. I live in Jupiter Florida and have no water pumps on any of my cars. Most of them have replacement radiators but they are now almost 30 years old. I have no overheating issues but like to have a Motometer to keep any eye on things just in case.
Brian, Model T's that have had a water pump on them for a long time tend to have the large kidney shaped passages at the front and back of the block plug full of rust and debris that the water pump cannot lift into the radiator. Normal flushing will not remove all of these caked in deposit.
Take to heart the advice above, it's very good and if your T continues to overheat, you may want to pull the head and make sure those passages are clear before you go after that new radiator.
Welcome to the hobby. If you are one of those that does not fear insanity, but instead embraces it for all it's worth, you are in the right place.
My 1916 Model T came with a water pump and I could not get it to stop leaking. So, I bought a water inlet fitting and the necessary long bolts and gasket to replace it with the OEM factory system. I also cleaned out the stuff in the block and head. Nine years now and not problem. At least, as long as I don;t fiddle with the carb setting and get it too lean. Amazing how much hotter things get then. Twirled the adjustment back where it should be and the Motometer (get one!) came right back down.
Don't feel badly about the question.
When I saw the title I knew that you were either new or was stirring things up.
Don't be concerned about being new.
We were all there at one time and it is good to cover questions that have been asked in the past because there are numerous new and old people that are bashful.
After you understand the fun discussions and kidding you will learn that this is one of the best places to learn about your T and what to do when you get into trouble.
If you remove the water pump (which I think you should do), you'll need a water inlet (cast iron part) with gasket, bolts and washers, the metal tube, two hoses, and four clamps. It's a super easy change-out. Oh, you'll also need to get the right size fan belt too. (Some of this stuff may already be present.)
Once you've taken it off, installed the stock parts and re-filled the system, take it out and run it. You'll know soon enough if you have cooling problems. If you do, then you can use some of the advice given above to correct the problem.
When I bought my first (and only) T it came with a water pump. I noticed it leaking. I carefully dismantled it, reversed the shaft to get clean metal where the seal was, I bought new seals and rebuilt it. It didn't leak. Then I read about Model Ts....
......and took it off.
That was 12 years ago. I did find a buyer for the pump though.
A water pump is not necessary on a good running T with a clean cooling system and good radiator. If you wish to keep the water pump, know this: Most T water pumps have a lube fitting which needs to be greased with "Water Pump Grease". Some of the parts suppliers carry it. For sure the Model A parts suppliers will have it. You should put some grease in there but not much. There is also an adjustment packing nut where the shaft comes out of the pump. That should be tightened slightly to the point where the leak stops but the shaft will still turn freely. If it is tight, that is all the way adjusted, and still leaks, you will need to re-pack the pump.
Having said the above, if the cooling system is working well without the pump, you will save a lot of problems by discarding it and using the standard water inlet.
You can purchase a Motometer. These are interesting to look at, and somewhat accurate for determining the temperature. The motometer does not actually measure the temperature in degrees, but will tell you if the engine is getting too hot. It should not go above the center of the circle on the scale. If it goes all the way to the top, it is running too hot. You will also get much steam if the engine is running hot, and if extremely hot it will begin to ping. After pinging if it is still allowed to run, it will seize. Don't allow it to seize. that will score the cylinders and cause oil consumption and loss of compression after it cools.
Here's the deal Brian plain & simple: No your car didn't come from Ford with a pump. It was probably installed years ago to attempt to cure an overheating problem. Possible bad/poor radiator. Now the choice is yours. Take it off and see what happens or repair the leak and drive the car. It's that easy. Packing for the gland nut is sold by all the big boys. Easy job too.
Fred, our local classical music station in St. Louis occasionally tosses in the tag line, "Remember, all music was new once." The same is true of T people, I guess.
I was on a tour once and my attendance prize was a new water pump. A few minutes later, Kent Gilbane won a Russ Potter-rebuilt carburetor. When he passed it down the table for everyone to look at, I warned him, "Don't be surprised if it's a water pump when it gets back...." On the same tour, I gave the water pump to Ken Meek, who offered to see if he could sell it. About three years later on the Canyonlands Tour, Ken handed me some money. I asked him what it was for and he told me he sold the water pump....
Dick, your experience is why the Mopar club I used to belong to changed the way we did attendance prizes. We set all the prizes on a table and let each winner pick what they wanted (one item) when their number was called.
Of course, if your number got called late, you got the dregs, so no system is perfect
Howdy Brian and welcome to the Model T hobby. Its almost more fun than girls. Toss the water pump. Along with the cast block-mounted water inlet, you may also need another water pipe that connects to the bottom radiator outlet. Something that hasn't yet been mentioned and is a common reason for overheating by a somewhat 'new' Model T owner is the importance of advancing the spark rod after starting. You are aware of this, right?
Here's something for folks who are new to the game: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html,
and another one: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
Brian, Welcome to the affliction.... I have no problem with any of my water pumps, I have about 30 to 40 different versions of them, All hanging on the wall with my other accessories. I think any water pump on my wall is a good one, and will not end up on a car as long as I own them. It also may help Royce sleep a little better at night, knowing I have them captured .... One thing you have not mentioned is how many rows of tubes do you have. there are 3 rows 4 rows and 5 rows. A 3 row will have a tough time cooling a car, a 4 row is OK and a 5 row is great .... Also see if your water pump put any grease inside the radiator and block. They are real bad to put 1/2 the grease in the block and the other half of the grease on the inside of your hood...
I think Royce didn't post anything bad about using a water pump in this thread because he is busy sawing up T water pumps people have sent him with that special saw he has for that purpose.
Don't toss the pump, you may need to put it back on if the radiator is not in good condition.
Get yourself a moto meter. You'll be glad you did!
I have always advocated owning an infra-red thermometer. It would be helpful in this case.
It is a device you point at an object, press the button, and it tells you the temperature of the object. It can be pistol-shaped, or flashlight-shaped, or even pen-shaped. They come from Radio Shack, or a host of other places, and they cost from about $10 to about $30.
I use mine to determine the top and bottom temps of the radiator, and to check for hot spots in the block, and I always check the bearings and tire treads & sidewalls on my trailer tires when stopping for any reason. Hot tires mean low pressure, and impending failure. Hot bearings .... well, you know.
Remember, the Model T cooling system is what we call a "Thermo-Barf" system. It relies (as intended) on the fact that hot water rises, and cooling it makes it fall. The system works well as long as two conditions exist: The block is not crudded up, so the coolant can circulate freely, and The radiator can efficiently remove the heat from the coolant. As many have stated, the more common problem is deterioration of the radiator. Passing more coolant, by using a pump, is a Band-Aid at best.
The Moto-Meter is a good accessory. As said above, it isn't supposed to be an accurate display of the water temperature -- it doesn't touch the water. What it does, though, by showing the approximate temperature of the air above the water in the top of the radiator, is alert you to a problem as it arises, and show you when you are properly adjusting the two things you can adjust "on the fly" that affect the engine's temperature.
One is the mixture. The other is the spark advance. Both affect temperature at the same time they affect smoothness and power. You will need to learn your engine's "sweet spot" on both adjustments, and a Moto-Meter is a handy indicator. Remember it takes a while for an adjustment to affect the reading on the MM, but you'll be happily tooling along and having fun as you wait to see the effect of an adjustment.
By the way, "tooling along and having fun" is the point of owning a Model T.
Geez guys, you complain when he rants about pumps then you poke the tiger with a stick while he's sleeping.
Throw another one in the pile.
Playing with the bear's toes.
Ken in Texas
Steve, I think you have more than I do.... Between both of us we have captured 100s of those evil things ... Im not trying to stir up the tiger, I agree with him .....
I agree with Royce, water pumps and T's don't mix at all. I never had a problem with the stock system. Good luck Brian and have fun
Guys, thanks for all the help and advice. It is great as a newbie, to have so many people help out and offer advice. I replaced the bendix spring on my starter yesterday, then pulled the water pump. Tonight, I will be ordering the new hose kit, the original motor inlet and all clamps. Hopefully, the radiator is good. The motor portion of the inlet was clear, but the water pump portion looked a little clogged? When I removed the top hose from the engine to the radiator, there was some rust. Is that normal? The rust was located on the outlet, not the radiator.
You might want to flush your cooling system before you install all your nice new parts, here are some demonstration videos courtesy of Steve Jelf:
You've already got the usual responses, so I'll add my usual response as well.
1. take it off
2. if it gets too hot either
A. buy a new radiator or...
B. put it back on.
That's what it boils down to, (pun intended!)
Obviously a lot of passionate feelings about water pumps on Model T's. As a newbie to the Model T hobby myself and learning their special needs, I did have a question about this "hot" topic...if the consensus of opinion is that the Model T works better without a water pump, and apparently it worked well - why then, after 15 million Model T's were produced did Henry Ford abandon the thermosyphon process and adopt the use of a water pump with the advent of the completely redesigned Model A?
Again, just an observation from a freshman Model T owner in quest for more understanding.
Thanks for the information
Yes, rust is normal (but not desirable) if the car has had only water in it. That's why anti-rust coolant is your friend.
Another suggestion I like is to clean out water passages in the head and block with a home made wire brush. I think the best way to do this is with the passages dry. Get a piece of steel cable, maybe a foot long, and fray one end of it. Put the unfrayed end in an electric drill chuck, stick the frayed end into the passages, and run the drill to spin the brush. It may not reach everywhere, but it should remove a lot of crud where it does reach. Blow out the debris with compressed air. Cover all openings but two with bits of Gorilla tape to concentrate the air flow at the highest pressure you can get between the in-hole and the out-hole. After blowing the stuff out of one hole, cover it and open another one. Eventually you should have a concentrated stream of air through all the passages to blow out whatever is loose in them.
Because Model A's overheat without a water pump. If you have a Model A, you need one. My Model A has one.
Royce, thanks for your reply. As we know, Model A's CAME with a water pump...but that's the point of my question. Why didn't the Model A use the thermosyphon process like the T? With the engine architecture being very similar, one would think that a water pump wouldn't be needed for the Model A either, if you follow my logic.
Thermosyphon has its limitations. The Model A apparently either exceeds those limitations or was simply designed to use a water pump because the competition had them and to not use one would appear to make the new model less technologically modern and up-to-date.
I am ordering all the parts right now. I just want to verify that I no longer use any thermostat. Is that correct? Also, on a side note, I have a wrong gasket on my vaporizer where it mounts to the motor, and was advised in a different thread to remove it. I am doing that too. I found a vaporizer heating plate. is that the correct part? and is there no other type of gasket that goes with the heating plate?
Correct. No thermostat. I don't know about the vaporizer.
Here are a couple of threads with drawings of Kingston and Holley vaporizer setups, perhaps they'll be helpful:
For ordering parts, remember Bob Bergstadt's liquidation sale. You can save some dough.
Back when I was into Model A's more, I read that the A system is sort of a hybrid between thermosyphon and a true pump system. If you look at an A pump, the impeller is rather small and there is a rather large amount of space around it in the head. No doubt it moves water, but not like a modern water pump does. Certainly some evolution in design going on there.
My experience, a Model T with a water pump has a leaking or seized water pump, and / or the belt keeps falling off. In each case, for me, the easiest and cheapest solution to fix the leak / seized pump / belt falling off was to simply remove the water pump. Magically, in each case, I no longer had a problem with a leaking water pump / seized water pump / belt falling off. Also in each case the T ran cooler, because it no longer had a leaking / seized / belt coming off the water pump.
I never have had a reason to install a water pump.
What is your experience?
I live in Texas and summer temps are regularly over 100 degrees. I've seen Model T's overheat & boil over in parades,so I installed a water pump on mine and have had no problems with leaks or belts coming off the pump. I figure ANY help in getting movement of the coolant thru the radiator has got to help, at least in these conditions. We'll see as the summer gets under way. Still, it doesn't make sense to me that a watercooled gasoline engine couldn't benefit from the attributes of a water pump...I get the sense it's more personal preference than anything else.
I live in Georgetown, Texas. Formerly Dallas, TX. and Tucson Arizona, among other places. I have driven on countless tours and parades with temperatures as high as 115 degrees F. I have never started a tour or a parade with a water pump. I have seen many T drivers unable to finish a tour or parade because of defective water pumps.
Some day you will figure it out! I hope until you do that you don't become a victim on the side of the road.
Does anyone know about the vaporizer heating plate? Do I need to order some sort of Gasket or just install the heating plate? Thanks.
Thanks for the advice, Royce. I know I stand to benefit from your experience and will keep a watchful eye on that water pump!!
Mike, Royce may not always be correct, but I do agree with him on the subject of water pumps.
I live close to Houston and it can get very hot. I have not found the need for a water pump and I to bought a few cars with pumps and got tired of fixing the pumps and removed them. No overheat problems even on those 100 degree parades.
Good to know, thanks. My latest experience is as follows: I recently had my radiator cleaned at a very reputable radiator shop - so far, so good. I used only water as coolant, and noticed that my radiator cap didn't have a gasket/seal under it but put on on anyway knowing that the cooling system is not under any pressure (!). I took the T on a short 15 mile trip doing roughly 40 mph the whole way. En route, I noticed bubbles/boiling coming from under the cap. At my destination, after shutting her down she was boiling a geyser. This is with my water pump installed, mind you, so the water pump gets no points for cooling. However, the water pump did not leak and no slack in the shaft, belt running true on the pulleys, etc. After a cool-down, I added water, drove home and made a cork composite gasket to reside under the radiator cap. The next run I made things were a little different...when I shut the engine off, I could hear gurgling sounds in the top tank, but didn't spit any water out of the overflow tube. It only gurgled for a short time and then stopped. Sooooooo, lesson learned about sealing the radiator cap, but can't claim that the water pump helped or harmed.
Brian, here are a couple of threads with Vaporizer info:
No gasket for the heating plate, but you need some high temp sealant to make it work.
I never use a gasket. Since I don't have a motometer, the bubbling around the cap is a good indicator of things getting too warm. I kinda like it that way. However, both of ours now have new Berg's radiators so I don't get to see the bubbling past the cap anymore.
I hate to say it, but I'm betting your radiator is marginal at best. I've been there. I fought buying one for a long time. I can safely say I am not sorry I did though. It didn't take me NEAR as long to buy the second one as it did the first one, and the first one was needed MUCH worse than the second.
Water pump a personal choice? You bet, but the NEED for one is not. People who think they NEED a water pump, really NEED a radiator. Your overflow problem was not because of a lack of gasket. I'd rule out late timing, lean caburetion, and a blockage in the block first, but if none are those are the culprit, I'd be saving up the $800.
When I did the running gear and frame for my TT in 1976, my radiator looked good, but leaked badly. The only radiator shop in my town said it had been shot with a BB gun that bounced off several of the round tubes. By the time he was finished ripping out fins and soldering tubes, it looked bad and functioned worse! He told me a core wasn't available, and I couldn't have afforded it anyway. A water pump was installed and served me well for 20 years of infrequent use until I replaced the radiator. I got a lot of enjoyment from that T and it kept my interest in T's alive. If my only option had been a new radiator, I would probably would not have T's today. So, yes, sometimes water pumps are good.
I've been reviewing oral histories on "The Henry Ford" website, and happened on this reminiscence by F. J. Farkas. Mr. Farkas explains that thermosiphon was used on the experimental Ford tractors, but a water pump was decided upon for the following reasons:
(Page 24, courtesy THF, all rights apply)
All Ford models except the Model T (post number 2500) used water pump s. interestingly, Mr. Farkas points out that more water volume and radiator surface were required on the experimental tractors using thermo siphon. Our Model K has a 400 cubic inch motor. Both the T and K radiator/cooling systems require the same amount of water.
While I would not use a water pump on our Model T s (unless an older radiator forced me to), I am able to use original radiators on our K and N (with round tubes and I'm sure degraded cooling capacity due to age) with no cooling problems. I suspect the water pump is why I've not had to buy new radiators (that would be a huge expense).
The other issue not discussed is, would a Model T with a water pump require less water, therefor less weight, offsetting the slight power loss running a pump?
I have used two types of vaporizers on my 1927 Tudor: one made by Atlas that is an exhaust manifold/Holley combo and one made by Kingston. Despite public opinion, both ran well; in fact, I have had many Model T owners drive my car and say that it is the best running Vaporizer that they have encountered.
With that said, you can get a new vaporizer heating plate from any vendor: Lang's, Snyders, etc. As far as gaskets go, I did purchase a set and only used them on the needle seat and the fuel bowl. As you can see from the pic, someone years ago created an aluminum extension from the top of the intake manifold to the air pipe. I have never had it apart as it has never leaked.
When I used the Kingston, it did leak between the joints. At the time, gaskets were not available, so I created my own gaskets out of card stock and used the Permatex copper sealer.
My experience, a Model T with a water pump has a leaking or seized water pump, and / or the belt keeps falling off. In each case, for me, the easiest and cheapest solution to fix the leak / seized pump / belt falling off was to simply remove the water pump. Magically, in each case, I no longer had a problem with a leaking water pump / seized water pump / belt falling off. Also in each case the T ran cooler, because it no longer had a leaking / seized / belt coming off the water pump. "END QUOTE"
Royce, all those problems you have and list, with water pumps, could be quickly over come and fixed if you would take the parts to someone that knew how to rebuild a pump, Pulleys, and set alignment!
If your belt is coming off, that is a simple fix also, your pulleys are out of alignment, or more times then not the crowns are gone off them.
Many of time I have also seen a crank pulley so loose on the shaft that it was moving around like a Mexican Jumping Bean!
The people who complain about leaking pumps are trying to use them as is, wore out after 80 years.
None of the original pumps had Stainless Steel shafts. If you run just water, it will rust in the packing over night, and the rust then starts to eat away at the packing. A can of water pump lube, and antirust added to the Radiator helps.
We rebuild our pumps with 3 Modern seals, new brass, or Bronze bushings,Stainless Steel shafts, and also some times use the packing also if the pump will allow. Never had one leak.
Some pumps do not lend them selves to rebuilding well, and others were to small to begin with.
So Royce if you say you shouldn't run pumps because they leak, is that like you not being capable of finding, or fixing a leak in one of your tires, so you run with out.
Steve, I am glad you saved that picture of those water pumps from that one Sale. The Guy like me that picked up all those Model T engines had water pumps on them.
About 80% of my engines, I picked up when I was a kid had pumps on them.
I have never rebuilt a T engine complete with out a rebuilt pump with it.
I'll let Royce answer that, but I don't think he was referring to his own cars. I believe he was referring to other folks' cars.
Running a pump is indeed a choice. A pump is not a bad idea, and I would have no problem running one if the car had had one originally. But the fact is, the car did NOT have one originally (Other than the first 2500) and it will run just fine without one IF the radiator is in good shape. If your car NEEDS a water pump to run cool, then there is a problem somewhere. And barring poor driving habits or a plugged up block, that "Somewhere" is the radiator. If you want to run a pump, then go ahead, but you need to know it is only a Band-Aid.
My problems with water pumps were ended when I removed them. They only needed removing to fix the problem permanently. To keep the water pumps from causing trouble for anyone else I cut the shafts off.
I run a water pump and a thermostat in my cars have no problems travel with other cars with pumps also no problems
I do have a question seems no one ever answers--How do you keep a good running temp on say a 45-50 degree day or maybe about 60 degrees in a heavy rain
I use light cable for the carb rather than rods the pump anchors one of the cable brackets
Brian, all T's are different, and you need to learn what yours likes. I have stated this on this forum many times, but I'll do it again for you. I have three Model T's.
My first has a '24 "high radiator" and had a water pump on it when I got it. It did not like to idle or do parades, it always boiled. I followed conventional advice and bought a new radiator and ditched the pump. It still does not like to idle or do parades. essentially no change.
My second T has a small brass radiator and was not running when I got it. After I got it running, I found that the water pump that was on it was seized. I didn't have a short belt to put on, but I did have the Texas T water pump that I had removed from the other car, so I put it on. That was 8 years ago, and it doesn't leak or throw belts, or get hot. I do a lot of parades and idling in this car and it never boils.
My third T also has a small brass radiator, no pump, and only two blades on the fan. It will begin to get hot if it idles for a long time, but never during normal driving or slow driving. If I had all four blades on the fan, it probably would not get hot even when idling.
Since your present pump leaks, I would try running without one first. If it runs hot, a water pump is cheaper than a radiator, so try that next. Fixing your leaking pump could be fun, and cheap too.
Just a word to the wise regarding Motometers. I have always use one and think it works great. They can however trick you into thinking everything is hunky-dorey when your engine is actually seriously overheating. As Peter mentioned, the temp bulb doesn't touch the water, so if the water level is really low the motometer will show"cool" or "cold" while the engine is actually overheated.
I got to experience this after a long pull uphill going to Petite Jean, Arkansas. I was relieved to see the mercury start to drop but relief turned to curiosity and then to disbelief as the mercury dropped out of sight. After pulling over and shutting off the engine, my T buddy Walt Crist (rip) and I could hear no bubbling nor steaming, only a dry crackling noise accompanied by a "hot" smell. The paint was bubbling on the head and there wasn't a drop of liquid in the cooling system! That 3 row radiator always did need frequent topping up but my T has never had a water pump in spite of it.
At the risk of being further ostracized and even less respected, I'll give you my take on motometers. I wouldn't bother. I do have one on my A. It is ridiculously inaccurate. It would take a trip to the surface of the sun to get it into the circle. Normal operating temperature shows no red at all. If I do see 1/8"-1/4" of red, I notice rough idle first, which makes me look at the motometer. It is essentially useless. Someone on a Model A forum many years ago told me to toss it and not worry about it. I did not toss it, but I did quit worrying about it. So much so that the thought of putting one on either of the T's has never crossed my mind.
In reference to Gerald's question, I've run all day with temps in the 50 degree range with no trouble. Car ran great. The thermosyphon system is self regulating. Water doesn't flow until there is a temperature differential in the water. Then the rate of flow is regulated by the amount of differential. If it's only a few degrees, it circulates slowly. If the water in the engine is several degrees hotter than that in the radiator, it circulates faster. If the water in the engine is many many degrees hotter that in the radiator, it circulates even faster. I suspect your motometer reading is the only reason you feel you are not 'keeping a good running temperature'. I wouldn't worry about it. Plenty of T's ran just fine for many years with no concern for good running temperature.
I could be wrong, but I suspect the original users of motometers were a lot more concerned about making sure they were not overheating than they were about making sure they were up to 'a good running temperature'.
Its not hard or expensive to put a mechanical gage under the dash for a second opinion of a moto meter. I have both and found that with different speeds a small change can keep enough water in the system for a longer drive with a cooling system that needs cleaning. You never know what was put in them in the past.
Brian, 35 years ago I had a '15 Touring that ran VERY hot in parades and stop and go traffic. The radiator was good, so I put in a pump. It helped, a little. But, the car still didn't like being in parades.
I now have a '27 Roadster Pickup. When the engine was rebuilt, it came back to me very tight. The engine re-builder suggested I add a pump during break-in to help keep the temps level. I followed his break-in instructions and I now have a very good running T. It does just fine in parades too. I probably don't need the pump anymore; but since it doesn't leak or throw belts, I left it on.
There is no absolute or correct answer to the question about water pumps on Ts. If it helps your car's drivability and you feel better for having it, use it.
Finally, in response to your question about Vaporizers. My '27 has a Holley Vaporizer. It runs fine and I really like the look of it under the hood. You asked about gaskets for the vaporizer plate. Do not use any on either side of the plate. Just be sure that the machined surfaces that the plate sits between are true and completely clean / free of debris. Attached is a photo of my vaporizer carb.
Your car will run perfectly with the E-Waterpump, but some people won't like it.
As I recall, Steve, some were mighty offended the first time you posted that picture.......I thought it was hilarious......The picture, not that they were offended......well......that too.
OH NO STEVE! you've caused a tear in the space time continuum now we're all DOOMED!
Love it. :-)
It would be great to have the J and M system of cleaning water cooling passages but they can write the cost off most of us cant. I intend to play with some water sand blast on some junk blocks Nothing to lose and possibly something to gain!
Relax. Clearly, the space time continuum cannot be torn without a flux capacitor. Lets just hope Steve doesn't add one...
I'm still trying to figure out how many microfoonads of impudence I need to flem the drelb. Once I get that, watch out!
Well, my goodness. Now all we need is a oil additive question and we will have a well rounded forum discussion.
Larry. Now you can worry...
PS. Steve, can you wait until July 4? It will minimize the panic when the public realizes too late that the red sky and atmospheric fireworks are not part of the 4th of July celebrations.
I have owned several Model T's over the years and when I brought them home if they had a Water Pump the first thing I did was remove the Water Pump. Henry Ford did not include them. They ran and drove fine, even in the 100 + degrees heat of the valley.
Steve, don't forget to plumb the rad overflow into your carb intake with that rig.
Mack - If someone uses STP and a waterpump on their T will they be eligible to run in the Indy 500?
Fred don't for get the modern bands before you race
I'd like to throw something in the mix here. If a T engine were modified to increase HP with a Fronty head, different pistons ect, it would produce more heat. Would a water pump become necessary to cool the engine? Seems to make sense that by moving water a little faster could help with heat transfer. ( not trying to start a war here, just asking a question, thanks.)
The last speedster I built had a heat guage, waterpump, clean block, and new radiator. The water circulated through so fast it wouldn't cool--pushed it out of the overflow until it would run hot after about 10 miles. I removed the waterpump and it's never ran hot since.
You didn't say anything about a Thermostat Mike!
After jumping through the all the hoops trying to keep my T cool say 190 degrees a few things were learned. Speed generates heat at 25 the heat is OK at fifty your going to push out coolant. I drive 35-45 most of the time at 30 your asking for trouble unless its on a back road. Herm rebuilds vintage pumps My one vintage pump used worked much better then the new leak free style. The checking was done with a mechanical gage threaded into the T outlet so it was in the heated water of the block not hanging above the water like a moto meter often is.
The thermal siphon system works just like a side arm system on a wood stove, After the stove is lit it might take a few hours to heat a fifty gallon tank of cold water during which time the wood stove will not put out as much heat as normal. Then it takes very little heat from the stove to keep the water hot.
Put a kettle of water on the stove to boil, after its boiling look how far the stove can be turned down and the water is still boiling.
You'd think by now that everyone should know not to use those few restricted words here like WP, E things, Oily stuff, Disc ma Callets, and S belts.
I do think Steve is on the right track to prevent Electrolysis.