1915 Model T Information

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1915 Model T Information
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 01:27 pm:

Hello everyone, just joined the group. I'm considering buying a 1915 Touring that has had a frame off restoration including having the motor and drive train rebuilt about four years ago.
How can I determine if this is a 1915 car, the casting date on the block is September 1915 and the owner says he has all the original paper work, which I have not seen yet. Is there anyway of determining if the car has been assembled from parts?
Also, what is a price range I should expect to pay for this type of car?
I'm very new to this so any direction will be appreciated.
Thanks,
David Tipton


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 01:31 pm:

You may find this helpful:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 01:44 pm:

Best thing you could do is post pictures of the car here. The experts on the forum will be able to see things that you should check.

There's all kinds of stuff that people will put on a Model T that is incorrect for the body style or year. There can be wrong stuff on the car that the current owner doesn't even know is wrong. Like I said, posting pics is the best way to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 01:44 pm:

Best thing you could do is post pictures of the car here. The experts on the forum will be able to see things that you should check.

There's all kinds of stuff that people will put on a Model T that is incorrect for the body style or year. There can be wrong stuff on the car that the current owner doesn't even know is wrong. Like I said, posting pics is the best way to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:14 pm:

The 1915 model year ended in August 1915. So by definition you are looking at a 1916 Model T, built near the beginning of the 1916 model year, which began on September 1, 1915.

If the engine is original to the car you should find other features of the car matching the time period. The record of changes section of the MTFCA encyclopedia is quite helpful in this regard.

Like Seth says, it is easiest to post pictures here, so that several people can help you determine correctness and value.

Bear in mind that Model T's are addictive, and if you buy one you will probably buy another.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:15 pm:

Here's the pictures{454859,More}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:16 pm:

Here's the encyclopedia link for the 1916 model year:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1916.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:17 pm:

David, if you want to post pictures on the forum, be sure to resize them so that they are smaller than 194K. I resize mine to 150 dots per inch and a width of 5.9 inches, it seems to work well for me. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:19 pm:

OK one more timeFront of car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:20 pm:

If you are having problems posting the picture(s) you can email me and I will post them for you.

Chris*****at*****mtfca.com

Replace ** etc. with @


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

Posting at the same time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:21 pm:

Pictures of MotorLeft Side of Motor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:24 pm:

Right Side of MotorRight side


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:40 pm:

This car's motor, trans and rear end were completely rebuild 4 years ago by a Ross Lilleker in College Station, Texas http://www.mrmodelt.com/. To me there shouldn't the amount of rust that you see on the head bolts and along the head gasket line. Also, on the right front part of the head there seems to be a vertical crack that has rusted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:47 pm:

My 16 coupelet was built in early November 1915. It has an electric horn and the headlight connectors are 90 degree type. Just pointing out the differences I see . I'm not expert but that carb looks like it's for an newer T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 02:58 pm:

It does seem rusty for a 4-year-old rebuild. It must have been stored where the humidity was very high.

Someone has "brassed it up" using '15 trim rings on the headlights and cowl lamps. The 16's had black painted ones. The manifold clamps and carb are later, but that won't affect the operation, and they're easily changed if you want them to be correct for '16. It has accessory Hassler shocks (springs) on the front, otherwise looks to be correct there. The radiator appears to be a Brassworks repro. If it's only 4 years old, it should have many more years of service left in it. The horn is correct but broken and it should be painted black.

All those discrepancies are trivial and easily corrected if you wish. I'd hazard a value guess at about $12-13K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 03:00 pm:

p.s. -- It'll probably run better with Champion X spark plugs. O'Reilly's part number is Champion 425.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 03:37 pm:

Wrong manifold clamps. Headlamps probably wired incorrectly (they're too bright unless the engine is running fast).
There are a hundred little details that may make a difference. But, all in all, what can be seen in these photos looks really good. It really depends upon you, what you want, and what you want from the car.
Whether it is a "true" 1915 (okay, actually a '16) or not would require a much closer inspection. However, from the photos, I would hazard a guess that you would not have any troubles with the Horseless Carriage Club of America or even the strictest local/regional group. They have higher standards requiring a certain amount of the car to be correct vintage. Any model T club would love to have it along on any tour or show.

Welcome to the affliction! Model Ts tend to be addictive, and a lot of enjoyment. They also can help most people connect closer to history and the world around them. I don't know how they do that. It is just an observation.
Let us know know if you do get it.
By the by? Mike W's estimate of $12-13K would appear to be a good buy. Even a little higher would not be too bad if you want it. I have been seeing similar for near $15K now, but that I think is a bit much.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 04:08 pm:

Clarification regarding model year:

The 1916 model year began on August 1, 1915, not September.

You mentioned a September 1915 casting date. You should be more specific and look up the corresponding date for the serial number. The lag time between the casting date and serial number date can be anywhere from a few days to a few weeks or more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 04:14 pm:

I've never had any work done by Ross, but he's been in the business for a long time and I haven't heard any negative reports. If he did the work on this car I expect it left his shop very sound mechanically. On the other hand, the look of the engine suggests that since then it may have been "rode hard and put away wet". Still, as the other guys have said, it looks good to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 04:37 pm:

Erik, The actual casting date is 9-15-15, I don't know the serial number. I'm going to see and drive the car this weekend, I should have a better feel for how it runs and drives after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:06 pm:

David:

If you live near any branch of a Model T club you would do well to get someone to go with you to look at the car. I would go myself if it is nearby. The person that goes with you will not make the decision for you but will simply tell you what you are buying. In the end - all antique car purchases are a pig in a poke unless you know the owner personally and have reason to know that he know the car's history accurately. The pictures didn't scare me off but much of the value might lie in things you cannot see namely inside the motor and gear cases. If you are handy with tools you should find a T fun to work on and it is easy to find parts for them. I should warn you that T's are addicting and there is no known cure. You sound like someone about to take the plunge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:26 pm:

David,
The front view you posted shows a very nice straight body side--not easy to achieve on the passenger side--I see many restored cars that miss that detail! It also appears (though difficult to tell with the reflections and shadows) that it doesn't have the bolt head just in front of the rear doors, which would be correct for your time period. My Dec '15 does have that feature. Another easy to spot feature--unless a restorer changed them out--are the door latches. On your car they should ope by swinging up (not the lever, but the latch itself). This also requires the correct latch plate on the body, with the top opening "hook" unlike the later side-opening one. I hope this is clear. . .
Another easy one is the cowl metal; it shouldn't have a notch in it for the hood rod, as do later ones. Some bodies of your vintage actually have a separate piece for that front panel, others are just a single stamping.
Check your coil box lid, it should be a stamped lid with rounded corners and no visible seams, like the later lid (easy thing to change, should you desire). I tried blowing up your pic to see the engine number, but it blurs out, maybe you can read it from your original pic. It's just above the water return in front of the horn in your photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David J. Holland on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:49 pm:

The carb is a NH from '25 to '27 Should be a brass Holley G with a notch on the choke area or an early Pat. 1915 Kingston. Wrong clamps on upper hose. Motorcraft spark plugs, should be Champion X.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:56 pm:

Looks great, only going to be small things for period correct, most have already been mentioned, other than the fan mounting arm, if it was at my end of the world, it's still a $30,000 T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 06:02 pm:

Forgot to mention, diff axle housing 1915/16 is a one of as well, check that it has no ribs on the backing plates of the hand brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 06:07 pm:

are the manifold clamps mounted backwards??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 06:11 pm:

John,
I dunno if they're backwards or not, but those studs would be too short if you turned the clamps around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 07:36 pm:

Is the front hub from a newer year--it looks kind of thick at the end of the hub cap. If I were in the market for one and it was priced right and nearby, I wouldn't mind owning it. It looks nice and straight. I'd climb in and out of it, and ride and drive it if possible and see if it "feels" good. Someone will always find something wrong with it--could be no humps on splash aprons or ridges on rear end, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 08:05 pm:

Yes Mike, someone will but it's all in relation to the threads topic (question).
1915 model T information!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 08:16 pm:

John, the manifold clamps are from a later improved Ford of the 26-7 era, and they are mounted as they are meant to be. The correct clamps are mounted the other way around, which means the studs have to be longer. Off the car, the difference between clamps is a little harder to pick. The correct clamps for this car should have round feet wit a forging ridge along the back. The 26-7 clamps have the ends forged in a straight sided oval shape with a flat surface either side, which will allow them to be mounted either way.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 08:55 pm:

One thing about a '15...or even a proper '16 is it always is a conversation piece! :-) And, 1/3 of the time there is mis-information on what should be or could be. That said, the pictures say it is a decent machine so it depends on what your motivation is for buying.

A car to be a correct '15? Obvious that it is not and never will be based on the casting date (engine number would be nice to know, I'd suspect somewhere in the 90x,000 range but if it is under say 850,000 then it would/could be a '15 with a replacement block and original number.

There are real 15's that are nice...there are real '15's that have been ruined by peanut gallery comments from so-called experts...there are later cars turned into 15's...and then there are the real 16's that have had a face lift! On the surface, this sounds like a face lift version.

So, start with the idea that the car is a nice car and is 'probably' a good 16 with a facelift! No biggie...a '16 built before Dec 31 is still eligible for HCCA participation and if just a face lift only it can all be put back to right ¡¦16 for maybe 800 bucks for less, almost nothing with swaps! If it has been bitsied in the process, it is another story.

Let's look at the biggie items...take a refrigerator magnet with you...
The hood on a 15 is aluminum, on a 16 steel...
That early in the '16 year, the hogshead would still be aluminum but the pedals would be smooth...do not try the refrigerator magnet over the flywheel! I did this one time and the fridge magnet stuck good, went to change the bands after buying, and almost threw the hogshead across the room on the tug to break the seal! Yup was aluminum with really strong magnets underneath and lots, lots, lighter

Lots more of the brass would be black on a '16...

The twist horn has less than a 1% chance of being 'ok' for a 16 that early...most would argue no way even for a late model year '15, but some of us also feel the branch assembled cars really got the short end of the stick in the '15's after having tons of '14 stuff left over. Look for traces of a magneto horn bracket on the firewall, or button shadow on the column.

The picture shows headlights blaring¡Kso something tells me this has been rewired to a 6V system and is no longer magneto driven. Applies whether a '15 or a '16. Worth a check the real 15-16 light switch is on the firewall, to the right of the coil-box.

I could be wrong there but running real 9V lamps blaring on magneto is one of the most expensive one time things you can do (smirk)

There are lots of subtle little differences that distinguish the '15-'16 from later one's, too numerous to mention here. Should you buy it and leave it as is, or change it back to a proper 16 there is one rule I ask folks to consider. When it comes time to challenge a feature or change a feature to make it more 'proper' in appearance, don't go for consensus,go for unanimous opinion or don't do it! I've seen '15/16's ruined by folks with good intentions and comments. Another point, if it is supposed to be a '16 that has had a facelift to make it look like a '15, go look at a real '16! I wouldn't think twice about undoing a face lifted '16, when you find a real one they have their own unique "Wow" factor!

As others point out, the manifold clamps are later...but again...lots of cars that are drivers / have been drivers have later parts in them as replacements.

Good luck...buy it to own it and have fun with it.

Shoot lots of pictures no detail too small and this very forum can have a field day with it. But then you do know. I'd be curious to know who has owned that one in the past...something about it looks mighty familiar (in a good way) but I can't place it (old age/senior moment)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 12:57 am:

Be sure to do your research if you want a real '15. Most of them today have been converted from a later model. Make sure you know what you are buying before you hand over the money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 06:27 am:

Suggested Link:

"Smoking Gun" 15' and 16' or is it....?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/13259.html

Also before you purchase a T, I would recommend riding and driving in a few. In general a stock T does not perform as well as a modern car. And that also needs to be factored into you decisions. But they are really a lot of fun to drive on the slower streets etc. Sort of a time machine for some of us.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 10:16 am:

I want to thank everyone for their remarks and suggestions, they have all been informative and educational. I did get these two additional pics from the owner. In the front view there appears to be a large rust spot on the hood then to the left of that there appears to be rust forming under the paint in the seam lines of the body. Also the bottom of the radiator has a large dark spot, possible leak? I'll know more I'm going to see the car this weekend.Front View


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 10:18 am:

Additional picture of the side and rear of car.Side and rear view


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 11:20 am:

I see a car I would like to own. A few minor discrepancies but remember this is a 90+ year old car. A little rust here and there is not a big deal but the major correct features are there as I see it... what I like: correct body and windshield,wheels,RM brakes, splash aprons,top,wishbone,lamps (although brass trimmed not black for '16 - a good problem).

If priced in the $10K to $15K range,I would not hesitate to buy. Just my opinion. - John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 12:15 pm:

David,

I can't tell from the photos. You might ask the owner if the brackets that hold the windscreen to the body are held on by bolts or by rivets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 12:47 pm:

It appears to be the correct "riveted" w.s. brackets - shows clear enough on the top photo of the D.S. of the two pics. just above.

Nice looking T !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 01:47 pm:

The right side engine view shows a choke wire, but in the front views I don't even see a hole for one. What's up with that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 02:28 pm:

It has the flared splash aprons. Good chance it's a real '15


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 03:21 pm:

Steve, I think the choke wire goes through the radiator between the fins. Repro radiators usually doesn't come with a hole and many restorers haven't got the heart to put the drill in a nice radiator when it works without :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 07:26 pm:

The flared splash aprons were used through about 1918. So there's an equally good chance it is a real '15, '16, '17 or '18 if we are only going by the splash aprons.

The rivet on the side of the body tells me it is no earlier than the summer of 1915. Everything I can see points to it being a 1916 model car.

The horn under the hood does not show the base, so I can't say if it is a '15 horn or not. The '15 horn has a cruciform base, with an elbow just inside the car. Like this:


I would expect there to be some overlap in the use (or not) of the electric horn during the summer / fall of 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 07:39 pm:

David -- Rust on the hood would mean it's made of steel, which would be correct for a '16 model year car.

Brassworks skips the step of making a hole for the choke wire, and many folks don't know it's supposed to be there. Putting the choke rod through the fins is a good way to mess up the fins.

Those splash shields look suspect to me. I bought a set of splash shields from Rootlieb once, and they had no "crease" where the flare begins. I sent them back and asked them to put the crease there. What they did was to roll a huge depression there using a wheel of some kind, not the subtle crease that Ford did. They looked terrible, so I sent them back. (Don't ask how much I paid for all that shipping. :-) ) These in the pictures look to me as if they have that huge Rootlieb "rolled crease." They also have no dents, so I'm supposing that they're repros.

We've been pretty nit-picky, but you did ask. I think it's a good, mostly-correct car, and I'd advise you to buy it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

The splash aprons for that time should have a very deliberate crease in them where the flair starts.

I love it when I take the '15 out to an old timers thing...folks want to pick it apart but have difficulty and the best they can muster is, "Really, really nice, but its a shame that curved part of the running board has a crease! You really should get that fixed as otherwise it still looks almost new!" I giggle and say, "R-e-a-l-l-y? At least the other side has the same problem and they match!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 12:50 am:

I've owned my '15 Touring for about four years, now and in that time, not one single person has walked up with a request to see my serial number.
__Not one.__Amazing.
__But sometimes I'm asked, "Is it original?"
__I shrug and reply, "Mostly, I guess. It still has the original engine, if that's what you mean."__I don't bother mentioning that my original, 1915 Model T transmission was swapped out for a 1921 Model T transmission to accommodate an electric starter.__To a spectator, the difference between 99 years old and 94 years old is unimportant.__So is the fact that I had my wishbone changed from overhand to underhand.__I think what they really want to know is whether I’ve dropped in a Chevy small-block.

Originality seems to become gradually more important the further back you go from—oh, I guess around 1913—probably because of rarity.__Later than that, fewer people are going to care (and your engine casting date is within the Horseless Carriage Club’s tolerance, so if you want to tour with them, there’s no issue there).

And now, a little blasphemy:
__I think that, more important than whether your car is a genuine '15, or a '15-looking '16, is its condition.__See, most of us Flivver-forum types aren’t using tweezers to pick pebblettes out of the tire treads of trailer queens for AACA competitions.__Rather, we’re cleaning out timers, filling grease-cups and oilers, adjusting brakes, bands and carburetors, and getting grease under our fingernails and skin off our knuckles to keep our “20-foot drivers” safe and reliable.
__Now, I don’t have any trophies on my dresser, but what I do have is a bunch of neighbors who look up and wave when I chug by and give ‘em a blast of my absolutely non-original hand-Klaxon.__At traffic-lights, people roll down their windows and say stuff like, "Hey! Cool ride!"__Heck, beautiful women who ordinarily wouldn't give me the time of day walk right up and start conversations with me (hub-boy, if only I'd had this car when I was single)!
__And if you don’t think I’m having more fun than just about anybody else, check out the thread on this forum entitled, “Spectators and Funny Hats.”__Heck, I’ll even fetch the link for you:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/443443.html?1403561434


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris, Huntington Beach California on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 01:15 am:

Bob: I'm with you! My 1915 was sold in 1923 second hand to the folks that sold it to me. I have the 1923 Bill of Sale and it calls the car a 1915. The Bill of Sale shows my engine #910xxx. My casting date on the block is 9-14-15. This was 13 years before the HCCA was even thought of. I think it is safe to say that if my car was a 1915 model in 1923, it's still a 1915 model today. When they restored the car between 1955 and 1970, there wasn't as much "knowledge" as we have now. Some of the parts were replaced with later ones I'm sure. I'm not going to go back and "correct" the second 50 years of history that my car has experienced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 01:15 am:

The choke wire thing is admittedly a very minor point, but one more reason to recore an original radiator if you have one rather than getting a new one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 07:58 am:

The original question from David Tipton was asking how to determine if he was looking at a real 1915 car. No one is trying to offend anyone (Bob) by any of this conversation.

David is extremely wise by seeking out expert advice prior to making the purchase. Whether all the minutia causes him to return the car to original status is his decision.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 10:47 am:

The easiest way to spot a '15 with a NON '15 body is to look directly over the coilbox lid. If there is a half-moon cutout there, then it's a later body.


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