A friend recently sent out a request for information on a model T part. This request went out privately to a few T people. He didn't want to post his request on the forum for his own reasons, but I think it's a shame that members of the T community don't feel that they can come here and be treated with respect. I know of a few people who just don't post and longer and I'm sure there are many more. None of us are experts, and we all should be able to learn from each other.
Think of the knowledge WE is lose from those who do not post here!
I don't post very often, but I visit and read the forum several times a day. I am amazed a the vast array of knowledge on these old cars. Many of you have helped me with problems or questions. I hope to meet some of you at swap meets this year.
Agree completely !
That is a problem as old as Adam & Eve's children...a failing of the human race.
I've often wondered what the world would be like if all of us cooperated in furtherance of knowledge, understanding and peaceful co-existence.
Perhaps that wonder of mine will never materialize, but there is always hope.... doesn't hope "spring eternally"?
That is too bad Kim. Tell the guy to post, he will be treated with respect of course.
I don't blame them. There are plenty of folks on here quick to point out not only when something is wrong or done incorrectly but call the poster a moron.
There are probably more forum readers who don't post than those who do, and I meet them often. I'm such a shameless ham about showing my mug on here that people often recognize me. Many tell me they read but don't post, or don't post much, because they don't feel they have much to say. Not many mention fear of flaming. I like Ralph's comment recently that what people think of me is none of my business. If some folks think I'm an idiot, that's their problem. I don't worry about it.
Yep, Everyone is treated with respect and courtesy on the forum, provided of course; they adapt the views of the frequent, opinionated posters who harshly criticize others that dare deviate from their view of how the hobby should be enjoyed; taking whatever means necessary to support their view and agenda, including but not limited to: lying, deceit, intimidation misinformation, denial and relentless, obsessive behavior to coerce conformance and acceptance of their views.
Oh, and the other prerequisite for being treated with respect and courtesy on the forum is to be an obedient consumer who purchases products and/or services from the Model T “Private Vendor’s Club” . You know, that group of individuals who frequently use the forum to support, endorse and promote each other’s products and services on the forum with total impunity. You can easily spot non-members of this elite club by the criticism, attacks and accusations of using the forum to promote their wares which compete with those of the private vendor’s club members.
I've been on many forums and it's always the same. Most people don't post. I wish they would because whether it is a simple question, a rehashed old subject or even an argument, people learn things. I especially enjoy reading the fresh thoughts of the newest posters so please, join in.
Fortunately for me I have lots of experience with T's and don't often need to post a genuine question. When I do, the forum rarely fails to get me the answer I require. Ford this I am grateful. I encourage all to post genuine questions which we can all learn from.
A couple things I learned years ago about this forum:
1. Hardly anyone agrees
2. Everyone has an opinion
3. There are a lot of grumpy old farts on here.
4. Not to be afraid to ask questions, because how else are you going to find out?
5. Its the best damned forum of its kind for the subject.
I do not excuse rude behavior but it is in our make up as humans and our culture. So it can be expected in this interest and in this forum. Simply discount those who may be having a bad day and those who may be A holes by nature. They are few here. A very small percent.
If out of fear of disrespect, criticism and such, a person wanting help or to relate a point of interest does not come on the forum to share, that shorts the rest of us who do care. In the early days, I had been put down plenty. I simply pulled my big boy pants back up and carried on.
I find threads like this interesting because the thing that made this site become a home for me was the warm reception and help I got when I first visited.
I was emotionally overwhelmed with the suggestions and support because my 1919 belonged to my Dad and means a lot to me. One member sent me his extra copy of the rear end manual to help me get started on making the car safe and I quickly connected with Ron Patterson to get my coils tuned. Asking questions and hearing from experts is better than my making mistakes on my own.
I realize that everyone is different and some folks are opinionated but that doesn't stop me from making a fool of myself -- I mean -- asking questions and contributing when I can.
I don't always agree with what others say and sometimes feel bad when someone tells me I made a mistake (like my comment to use a carriage bolt on the clutch assembly and rightfully being told that it has the wrong threads) but know that I missed up and need to be corrected so others can do it right.
Sometimes I do feel like an outsider, especially when people talk about going to the big shows etc., but realize that I can't do or be a part of everything.
As for Steve Jelf - he is the smartest "Idiot" I have ever run across - (sorry Steve I couldn't help myself) I wish I had 1/10 of his knowledge and ability.
Guys like Royce, Rob, Mike, Jay's photos, Ralf, Will, Les, Jim, Dave, Ted, Norm, Stan, Bob, etc. etc. etc. (too many to list) make the forum rich in knowledge and fun.
Additionally I love the water pump, oil additive, grandkids, band material, etc. discussions. And it hurts when I hear about someone being sick or having business problems or getting ripped off.
Bottom line we are a community of people with a common interest but we are all different.
Some folks are overly zealous, some are overly sensitive.
If everyone was a lurker here there would be no content. If you come here regularly but seldom post you need to take the next step and interact. We would love to hear from you since you obviously share the same interest in the Model T just like those of us that add content here do.
This is THE BEST site on the entire internet BAR NONE for all things Model T and YOU make it happen!
Well said, Jay ! We're all here to learn !
I'll resist the temptation to pontificate and just point out that R.V. has summed up the subject perfectly.
what Steve said! the only thing I knew about Ts a few years ago was that I wanted one, everything I have learned was from this forum, you do not need to ask questions, just do a word search and you will find that nearly every question has already been asked. I have two projects going and found both in the classifieds.
What about us zoomies who are both over-zealous AND over-sensitive?
That sounds like high school.
I have learned a lot by reading this forum. I have even learned from those who would disagree with me. On the forum, on religion, or on politics, I don't mind disagreements or arguments. Sometimes I even change my mind through such exchanges.
One thing though, I don't like is when people who used to speak to me, or correspond with me, who now refuse to do so anymore. Those who quit posting on the forum, cause more to dislike them than those who continue to disagree.
Kidding aside, I know I don't contribute much in the way of T knowledge here, being a newbie and all, but it is fun to talk to you all and I do hope to meet at least some of you before I leave this mortal coil.
And as Jay said - this is, BAR NONE, the best place on the web for T Talk. And frankly one of the best car forums there is.
Even with the occassional tiff here, this place is way more user friendly than the muscle car forums.
I find most who post here to be kind, helpful and use tact when disagreeing or correcting others. Some Dale Carnegie training would be useful to others however.
We all were newbies at some time. I read this forum pretty much every day and always learn from it.
I had two Model T mentors, who both are now gone. I learned a great deal from them over the years, no question about it. But they were "old school" Model T guys and didn't use the internet, so I have learned a lot here that they didn't know. I feel very fortunate to have been able to learn from both "old" and "new" sources of Model T information.
I find this forum fun and often something comes up and I learn something new. After 55 years working on and driving model Ts I have seen and heard a lot.
I hope I have not stepped on too many toes as sometimes I may not word things as polite as I should.
Best place to find out almost anything about Ts and even other OT stuff. When I post I try very hard to be correct. But I sometimes make mistakes. We are human. But if I make a mistake, there is useally someone to disagree and we correct it. (I am sometimes the disagee,er) no spell checkers please. As to pointing out incorrect parts on somebodys car, I think we have a duty to do so. But in a respectfull manner. Remember that it is their car to do with as they please, and enjoy. Not everyone knows what part is correct, and by pointing it out, they can then make the decision as to changing it or not. If "not" that is OK. I give the forum a 99% approval rating, because there will always be the 1% of jerks, ......
One of the best ways to earn the respect of your fellow Flivver forumites is to make an iron-clad habit of declining to rise to the bait when somebody zings you.
Kim: Tell him that there is no question that is to dumb to post-so maybe it sounds stupid to him but so what. Ask it any way -as you may or maybe not get a dozens replies. I posted a question about a knock in my engine and got several answers, and several were correct--solved my problem--bad wrist pin in a almost new re-build.
I have seen several things asked and thought that they were dumb but really not for the un-informed-ask and it will be given seek and ye will find and knock and the door will open and alas you will get the answer maybe not what you expected but one of them maybe will be correct! NUFF said
I seldom post anymore but it is an informative site. There is a core group here and I can see how new folks find posting intimating. Take no offense but I read other forums and rather you agree with me or not but they are very cordial. The oldtimers on those sites don't argue and don't use it as a social page but help newbies (and each other) to the best of their abilities.
Now I've done it.
As a suggestion the forum may do well with two areas, Technical and social. Disagreeing really ought to be a gentlemanly act (and for the most part it is...) and best approached as a difference in technique. The fact that the subject is on the table is telling. imho
That is really too bad.
: ^ (
Were you able to answer the question?
More importantly, what was the question? I'd like to know because I'd probably learn something!
I love this forum because I am learning all the time. Even stuff I didn't know that I didn't know.
Then there are the times when I learn something that I thought I knew, but was wrong! (I hate it when that happens...)
Even the classified section lately has been a wealth of knowledge and learning.
Yes, sometime some people don't play nicely.
I promise I will, and I hope others will, too.
: ^ )
Bob, it probably helps that I'm often too obtuse to realize I've been zinged.
Yes Kim, you're right and its too bad that it happens here all too often.
I agree with Mike Kossor and Tyrone's post.
I have found myself reluctant to post or give my opinion because I know many of the responses will be negative. Don't need that in my life, I keep a positive attitude to the worst happenings.
I kind of felt that Mike K's post was one of the more negative things I've read today.
"I seldom post anymore but it is an informative site."
The reason it's an informative site IS because people of differing viewpoints DO post!
Steve, don't worry about being obese. I've been obese for years it's... What's that? Obtuse? What's that mean? Oh, okay. Hey Steve never mind!
Hey Steve, I think Mike just zinged you
Whew, that's cutting it a little too close!
Listen, if you're that thin skinned that the very remote possibility that someone MIGHT say something a little off the wall then maybe you're better off not posting. Feel free to jump in. If you're question or request for info is legit there's going to be no problem. Even if there is Chris will take care of it.
If you pose a question using a fake name, can it hurt if a reply were nasty, meanspirited and belittling?
There will always be thin and thick skinned people.
Its been that way since the human race began.
I learned a long time ago on my first real job that you have to learn to deal with things even if you don't like it.
Unless you want to be a hermit. People don't get paid much for that though.
I don't know if the issue is so much thin skinned. When the 1911 engine was offered for sale a few weeks ago, the seller was pretty much taken to the wood shed for selling a fake block. The seller is very ethical, and in no way tried to pull a fast one on anyone. He thought what he was selling was genuine. Comments can be educational or they can drive people away for good.
I guess I have never been afraid to ask a dumb question here or anywhere. My desire to learn is stronger than my fear of being branded an idiot. So now I am a slightly more knowledgable idiot. I have been both pleased and shocked at the responses of some commenters here.
I wish all would feel safe to post here.
Some questions are so common I am sure I won't learn anything new from the answers posted. Then I learn how wrong I was.
Lurkers, we love you but would love to hear from you too.
If unsure, just post a photo of your four wheeled family member.
Being an idiot never stopped me either Erich.
I don't think anyone attacked the seller's integrity. In fact everyone seems very respectful to Bill. Obviously he was unaware that he had a block that was not a real. Would it have been better if everyone ignored the situation and let someone else get screwed?
The block appears to be a real 1914 block. It has value as a real 1914 block. If I were him I would try to sell it as that, what it really is.
Kim, I had to read the original post to refresh, and I really don't see the problem. As a person who has sold and bought stuff all his life, you are going to have those "oh s**t " moments, that you find out you were really wrong about something. I've had plenty, and the easiest way forward is to admit a mistake, and move forward. The easiest way to never make a mistake is to never do or say anything. I know a few people like that, and talk about a dull life!
What about the poor buyer who would go to the trouble of purchasing a $6500 1911 engine that turned out to not be? I think as a forum, it s an outstanding service for members with experience to offer that knowledge, of course it should be in a nice way. I may have missed something, but I didn't see anything nasty at all. It seems to me the buyer was taking the route that it certainly was correct, no matter what was pointed out.
To disagree without being disagreeable is something to strive for. There are things posted here all the time I disagree with, but just pass them over. At least that is what I try to do now.
I always TRY to be nice?
I had to laugh a few days ago. A new poster, apparently very new to model Ts, closed with a comment about needing to get a water pump and 10/30 (high-end or supreme?) oil. Obviously, he had read enough before to know where to stir the pot. I found the comment to be very entertaining.
I really like nearly all the regulars here (except maybe me), and look forward to reading here nearly every day. I do wish a few of the p!$$!#g contests would not start up. But, people are like that sometimes.
There are a number of people that have disappeared, that I very much do wish would come back. And I would like it if more of the lurkers would sign in and participate. This is a great forum.
Thank you all.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I re-read the entire 1911 engine for sale post and I am with Tim 100% on what he just said!
Wayne, I also agree 100% with your comments above as well.
This is a great group of gentlemanly people we have here warts and all!!!
I'm in no way saying he should have been allowed to sell it without comment,and most comments were very educational. I think yours Royce, were complete and informative. There are just a few who were not real constructive. Bottom line is there are to many who leave and we are the losers, there is a lot of knowledge out there.
Well, I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy! Oh oh, backup, I think I drank to much beer and peed on my foot.
I also followed the 1911 engine for sale thread with interest, as a result I have a question:
Assuming that poor Bill has now been convinced that he has a 1914 engine with a 1911-looking serial number and casting date, what if anything does he do to the engine to make it of interest and sale-able as a 1914 engine? Stamp an extra digit on the serial number pad? Try to build up the missing digit on the casting date? Leave it as-is and let the next guy worry about it?
Maybe I'm being obtuse again, but reading the entire 1911 thread I don't see anybody attacking Bill. The way I read the comments they seem aimed at sorting out what the engine really is. Scott's ironic comment could be taken as sarcastic, but all the others questioning the date seem to be legitimate inquiry questioning the engine, not the seller. Sometimes Royce is accused of lacking tact, and sometimes he does, but I don't see it here. I think just about everybody was playing nicely with others on this one.
By the way, my takeaway on these discussions of early blocks and their value is enhanced delight that I paid $50 for what appears to be a good early 1915 block.
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.
Plato (427 BC-347 BC)
I am not sure if Plato drove a T, but I know Joe does. He has been my friend and T mentor for 40+ years, so I am going to try and follow that advice. It is good to see him back here. Thanks for starting the conversation, Kim.
I don't think the problem was what was said, it was the way it was said. I thought there were a few sharp comments early on. I tried to point that out during the thread and the next few comments sort of poked fun at my mentioning it. Bill is one of the most honest people I know, and ethical; perhaps knowing him personally made me a bit more sensitive to the posts, but I don't think so.
Mark; knowing Bill it will sit on the shelf, and he won't be in any rush to sell it. It's still an early engine in good condition that can be used in a car without ever worrying about the actual date, and it never needs to be registered. I know for me it would have been perfect as a spare engine for my '15 and '11.... Non starter, early engine, good condition, and no need to license it or register it to run as a spare. If I didn't have an engine at the babbit shop now I'd be interested in it, and wouldn't care either way about the date, but I would want to be aware of it. I suspect someone else that's like minded would feel the same.
Don't know about Plato, but I'll bet 100 drachma on the chariot with the blades on the wheels.
Ain't that America for you and me?
I like this place. I may just get a T some day.
In the mean time, I'm learning.
PS--I know I don't post as often as I should, but I read everyone else even the boring stuff.
Even the boring stuff, Charles? Oh so you must be reading Mike Garrison and I's conversations.
Laughing as I learn. at least we have the whoooole field covered, even far left. Mike and Danial, LOL..
Who is gonna drive a T in a July 4th parade? I am in the little town that gave birth to "U-Haul".
I'm right there with you. Right now, I have three cars for sale from my father's estate and I won't post them here because I can't bear to read the shredding that they'll get, even when I describe them exactly as they are.
I enjoy this forum for the good that it brings, but it sure isn't friendly to people trying to sell Model T stuff.
It's amazing to me the different reactions to the same forum I see here. Virtually all of my interactions here have been more than positive.
I was a brand new, dumb guy that came stumbling in like a drunken lemur a few years ago asking one question after another and probably trying the patience of even the mellowest of posters here, and not ONCE did I ever get the hint that someone was giving me a hard way to go because of it.
I think the strongest zinger I ever got was from Mr. Jelf who basically offered the advice that I should open the books more often.
I have seen a few tiffs and even got involved more than I should have during the OT political discussions, but man, I just don't see the dark side some are describing here.
I know I've said it a dozen times, but this place really is milque toast compared to all of the other forums I am on - cars, political, gaming, guns, you name it.
Everyone's opinion has value and I don't mean to discount them, but surf more forums out there and see what's really going on. If you did, I suspect you would come back here and breath a big sigh of relief for coming back to one of the few rational and mellow forums on the web.
I have to agree Danial. I don't see it either. Occasionally, maybe, but CERTAINLY not enough to make one afraid of being crucified. I chalk it up to "It takes all kinds". Just as there are some who are a little less tactful than they ought to be, there are those who are a little more sensitive than they ought to be. It ain't a perfect world. If one were to be afraid of posting here, I think it is their loss in the grand scheme of things.
I didn't know that U-Haul came from WA -
I thought it came from the Southern part of the US and was just a Yankee trying to say Ya All
Steve assumes we can read -
Speaking of Steve -
I am still trying to figure out obtuse and obese -
About all I can find is that "There is a danger of being obtuse about obesity"
Looking at pictures of Steve- he has neither problem!
Are you sure it was the beer?
Oh no....another thread that has gone too far. Now we have this helpless canine being shamelessly exploited, for the purpose of opining on a Model T technical point. When will these unnecessary abuses end?
I did not intend to show disrespect to canines.
Should I have found a picture of a cat?
Donnie, I think that the approval rating should be more like 99.99%. Having a 99 : 1% Jerk rating means that out of 1000 members, there are 10 jerks. I know we have over 1000 members and I cannot name even 2 jerks and even the so called jerks here are fine people that I respect and get along fine with. Jim Patrick
on the subject of posting....i like being able to post when needing information on my T, i'm not much of a chit-chatter. i am what is called a newbie i suppose. many postings are from newbies like me who perhaps ask questions that many of you have heard before, but maybe a newbie hasn't . Someday i hope to graduate from newbie to someone with at least some knowledge of the subject matter that i can pass along to someone else. i notice a lot of the auto publications have less and less technical articles written by knowledgeable individuals, again i suppose, been there done that. for the newbie, a re-run of past articles would be a great deal, along with more pictures of cars. i know there are a plethora of books out there, but i sure look forward to receiving the latest Model T Times, or whatever, to see the cars and tech articles.
I got up this morning and went to put my socks on and I swear the dog was laughing.
Under most circumstances my favorite quote by Abe Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt", stands, but not in the case of this forum.
I have a sign in my office that says "Asking dumb questions is better than correcting dumb mistakes", so, don't worry about what others think of you. If you have to ask, it simply means that you do not know and that you require an answer, no matter how obvious the answer may be to others. I have had my Model T for 44 years and still ask stupid questions. Sometimes I post inaccurate information or give the wrong answer to questions and when that happens, I simply learn from the person who corrected me, apologize for any inconvenience caused and move on. Few things are more embarrassing than arguing against someone who turns out to be right. Jim Patrick
I hope everyone here thinks i'm a jerk then you will not be dissapointed! The idea that because you have old cars your all warm and fuzzy is BS!!!Yes,there are many great people here but there are also those who will skin you!!I think what i'm trying to say is if you get along with everyone you might be too wishwashie CBrown!! Bud.
The only attitude that I dislike is.
"I KNOW IT WHY DON'T YOU STUPID"
Don't know the source, but I've met many of them in my lifetime.
No, wait Bud, we found out the reason for the whole warm and fuzzy deal.
How can I make this simple enough that even "you" can understand?
The Eagles ( for those who don't know is a band )
wrote a song called 'Get over it'.
The title says its all.
Sure is easy to pick out the the politically correct among us after reading all the comments here.
Current politics S T I N K.
so what do you mean by "correct"?
But how do you know the person correcting you is correct?
99 percent of us learned about T's second hand. Who's to say what we learned was right?
Politically correct is giving little johnny a trophy for coming in 15th place.
I think this forum is VERY tolerant of newbies and newbie questions. I visit other forums for my other hobbies that are very quick to tell someone to do a search and read the stickies and if you still have a question, THEN maybe it's OK to post. It's not a very friendly way to do things in my opinion. The folks on this forum will patiently answer any and all newbie questions, no matter how often they come up.
Jay you responded to my post,
"I seldom post anymore but it is an informative site."
"The reason it's an informative site IS because people of differing viewpoints DO post!"
Well you are quite right, it is an informative site when people are informing and helping, otherwise it gets a little too personal at times, thus the OP comment. That was my point. The fact that this discussion is long in the tooth and seems to pop-up often is telling. I will say it again if the hobby is to grow new people need to feel welcomed. I have posted too much, and so it goes...
I really don't have a reason to post on this thread again but, what the heck? Why not?
Actually I'm quite reluctant to post on this thread. Since it started I've been scoffed at, insulted, had my big girl panties twisted and have been pretty much treated like I expected to be treated. And that's why I love you guys. And that was just by Danial!
Well you can get your toes stomped about anywhere you go in life.
But if you want to learn about T's, you need to come here and pay attention and learn and ask questions.
It is my humble opinion that sometimes presentation has more of a effect on things than rather someone is right or wrong.
I met a few toe smashers in person back in the early 90's when I started my project.And I got over it and once they saw I didn't build a hot rod they approached me with a different attitude.
But, it coulda been reverse physiology. "Let him think we dont think he can do it and it will motivate him to try harder." Because honestly, the way I was treated by some was the prime motivator in me finishing and driving my TT right past those folks.
I wouldn't say someone who gets along with everyone is wishy washy. Getting along takes effort and desire. Anyone two people can get along no matter what their differences or back grounds if both make the effort, however if one decides he does not want to get along, it is a losing proposition unless the one who want to get along continues to try and eventually wins the recalcitrant individual over through patience.
Hal Davis is one of the true gentlemen on this forum who I have read for years and have never once seen where he has written an unkind word or response toward anyone. He is the type of gentleman who probably gets along with everyone and one of my favorite posters because he bends over backwards to find the answer and backs up everything he says with documentation. Heck. Some of his posts are so long and full of past threads and backup documentation that he must spend hours researching and putting them together. I have learned a lot from Hal, not only about Model T's but about how to treat others with respect, no matter how rude they are. Jim Patrick
Boy, Jim. I really appreciate the kind words, but I am struggling to figure out where you got that impression, and I'm sure there are plenty who might disagree. Are you sure you're not talking about Hap Tucker?
This discussion and several other recent posts have only reinforced my appreciation for this forum. We all have our own varying interpretations of any particular experience. My interpretation of the forum in general is very positive. In my reading, intentional insults or attacks are rare. I see the vast majority of comments as informative, or amusing, or clever, or hilarious, sometimes boring, sometimes fascinating, often entertaining, and mostly positive or at least neutral. I have no gripe with folks who are shy or don't feel they have anything to say, but I think the ones who stay away for fear of getting bit are overestimating the danger.
Great folks on this forum, I have learned from all! KGB
I agree with Steve. This forum is a place I come to to relax and converse with friends (some whom I have met and some whom I haven't). Those of you who know me are aware that the likelihood of my answering a technical question about a Model T is slim to none, but I enjoy the give and take here just as I do when I attend an event of our local club.
(I'm not certain, but I think that I am the one who suggested the practice of preceding off-topic posts with "OT." We used to do it on CompuServe forums for the same reason, i.e. people who preferred not reading off-topic posts were warned in advance not to look at them.)
Just to add I am the reluctant poster its amazing how long this thread has continued. What I find most interesting is no one knows what the facts are and many of these answers are speculative, some are funny some are strange. I replied with the facts in a post on June 27th, the heading was "Time to Terminate the reluctant poster". I noticed no-one has read that posting, that in it self is strange. The correct answer to query is integrity. If I promise someone something or if I strongly feel something regarding an issue I always follow thru. In this case a repugnant picture was posted therefore I felt debating an issue on this forum should be left to others. Nothing to due with sensitivity or big boy or girlie pants etc. etc.. I Have had my say back to anonymity
Wally, I read the other thread as well. Unless someone posts in a thread, you can't know how many people have read it. I suspect that a great many have. I must admit that I was unable to find the thread with the repugnant picture (although I did look for it). I don't recall seeing it when it was posted.
This thread is probably continuing because it has grown to deal with a broader issue than your reason for not posting, i.e. why some people post and some don't.
That's not fair Wally to deprive us of your knoweledge!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud.
I second what Bud Just said!!!
Wally, somehow I missed the June 27 post you mentioned. So I just copied the title you gave and I entered it in the forum search. Nothing. So I tried a Google search. Again, nothing. Can you post a link so those of us who missed it and aren't good at searching can see it?
Steve you may not be finding it because in the original thread title of Wally's there was a type in the word "reluctant". What that typo was escapes me at the moment, however.
"typo" not "type". Good grief, I typo-ed "typo".
Steve, "Time to terminate, reluctate to post"