Penetrant test

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Penetrant test
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:44 am:

Occasionally the subject of of freeing stuck shafts, nuts, bolts, etc., comes up. So I made this jpeg for anybody who wants to save it. You may eventually have to apply the heat wrench, but I'd start with this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 02:39 am:

Even though I sell it in up to 55 gallon drums, I personally shun WD-40. I'm sure that comment will step on some toes of the true believers, but it really is the worst crap you can throw between moving parts or coat exposed equipment with.

That's an interesting chart Steve; I'd be interested to see them do some testing with some of the higher end products like LPS and others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 07:30 am:

I tried the 50/50 ATF/Acetone mix. It does indeed do a good job, but the acetone attacked the rubber or plastic liner in the spout of the elcheapo pump oil can I bought to store it in. I need to find another method of storage. Meanwhile, I am back to PB Blaster, although it looks like Liquid Wrench is better and just as available. Kroil is some good stuff, but hard to find. Of course you can order it directly from Kano Labs, but I'm not sure if they sell less than case quantities. I did buy a can somewhere once, but don't remember where I found it. I used to buy it for work a couple of jobs ago. Had to keep it locked up or it would disappear. I suppose I could have "Borrowed" some from there, but I'm not like that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:26 am:

Danial, WD-40 was the product of choice in the shop where I worked building furniture. Not as a protectant or penetrant but to "enhance" the surface on our equipment such as table saws, jointers, shapers, planers and routers. We'd spray it on a soft rag and wipe the surfaces down. Wood went across the tables with a lot of ease and it never stained the wood. I like to have a can of it around when I'm chasing threads on some of the old nuts and bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:44 am:

A half and half mix of paint thinner and ATF works good at the coast to coat stored parts for rust prevention in salt air. Paint thinner does not attack rubber or plastic like acetone. I keep several spray bottles from the dollar tree around the shop with the mix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Burg on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:50 am:

I subscribe to the Home Shop Machinist Magazine and visit the bulletin Board Village Press has and they have had many discussions on this mix.
So I thought I would pass along information how this came about.
The original formula called for ATF and Trichloroethane 1.1.1 then when the EPA done away with Trichloroethane 1.1.1 the gentleman who started all this substituted acetone.

This is from a thread on the subject and George Bulliss (Editor of HSM) tries to straighten this out. (post 34)

George Bulliss
Administrator
I get more mail about this one little article than any of the others we have printed. Almost all of the mail relates to the fact that the two ingredients in the homemade penetrant do not mix. The fact that the photo in the magazine shows a container of Power Steering Fluid, while the text refers to Automatic Transmission Fluid, has also spurred more than a few people to call or write.

The author was kind enough to write a reply to these questions and it appeared in the February/March 2010 issue of Machinistís Workshop. The following is Lloyd W. Benderís reply:

The original homemade penetrating oil mixture called for using trichloroethelyne as the solvent. I cannot recommend trichlor for home shop use and definitely not for anything slightly resembling a business. Both PSF and ATF will form emulsions with acetone under mild agitation sufficient to thin the oil enough to penetrate. Upon standing, these will separate. Acetone performs better than the other commonly available organic solvents, such as methanol, but not as well as trichlor.

George

Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Burg on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:53 am:

By the way the original mixture does work well.

Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:07 am:

One of the grease zerks on the TLB i have would not take grease so i removed the not pluged fitting and sprayed in some PB Blaster.I was amazed that it worked so well and quick!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan Warrington on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:36 am:

I will have to try the ATF/Acetone mix. However, I have not found anything better than PB Blaster. As to WD 40 you won't find any around my shop or at the airport. WD 40 collects dust. I always use LPS. On electrical connections I use Boeshield. I spray my trailer connections with it and never have a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 10:14 am:

I have in my shop the following:

LPS
PB Blaster
WD-40
Marvel Mistyal oil
Sea Foam
others I can't remember.

I have been using the 50/50 mix for over 25 years now and there is nothing that works better, but YES I use the others because they spray out of the can and I have to use the mix in a jug.

My belief is the reason the 50/50 works is the acetone is so volatile, aka it evaporates and then carries the "oil" into very small spots between the rusted parts, thus helping in getting the parts loose-then free.

Using paint thinner, the cheaper the better is cheap and works well and should not be discounted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 10:15 am:

I will stick to my Kroil, best stuff I have ever used. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:04 am:

I've been using the 50:50 mix for many years, since I first read about it here. I keep a Ford oil can on my bench with that stuff in it, and I use it just about every day. I mix up a half-gallon at a time and keep it in a lacquer thinner can under the bench. It works wonders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:07 am:

I like the 50/50 mix but I often forget that acetone evaporates quite aggressively . . . so I end up with some plain ATF sometimes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:17 am:

WD-40 is a lot like Marvel Mystery oil. You'll never convince the people that use it incorrectly that it doesn't do a thing. My reading on WD is that it was developed for NASA as a moisture removal agent for electronics. The WD supposedly stands for water dispersal and the 40 represents the 40th. concoction they came up with which actually worked. It wasn't developed as a lubricant or a nut buster. Legend and lore has given it these properties. I'm a PB Blaster man myself. Convenient.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:25 am:

I had a local old car guy recommend Corrosion Block to me as the best stuff you can buy and after using it I wholly endorse the stuff. Some seized on 88 year old hardware has been reduced to finger tight.

Having said that, I want to try the 50/50 ATF mix to see what it's all about. If it's so great I wonder why nobody produces it commercially?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:38 am:

Having owned many old Mopars over the years, I bought a can of Mopar "heat control valve solvent" that Chrysler formulated for freeing up stuck exhaust heat control valves. From the color, it appears to have some graphite in it along with the normal penetrating oil components.

sovent1

solvent2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 11:43 am:

I used Kroil and still have some around (yes, Kano will sell it by the can), but being cheap I now use the 50/50 because it's better and costs a fraction of the Kroil price. Applying it with a squirt can is easy enough.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:32 pm:

Mike - Interesting you should mention that. There seem to be a lot of uses for the stuff. I used to gift gallons of the stuff to my elderly neighbor before he passed who was an alternative healer. He had customers who would pay him to rub WD-40 on their joints because they said it helped with a range of joint-related ailments.

Charlie - WD-40 is basically a kerosene-like component and water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:46 pm:

Danial, there's water IN the WATER-DISPERSENT? WHATTT??????? *mind blown*


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:52 pm:

And I think a touch of silicone. It's been almost 20 years since my WD-40 vendor schools.

To their credit, they just released a new line of chemicals called the "Specialist" line. We just received a boatload of samples from the entire product line to test.

Looks like there could be some good stuff there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 01:57 pm:

It appears that the official/public answer from WD-40 is still clouded in mystery. Interesting read:

http://wd40.com/about-us/myths-legends-fun-facts/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 02:16 pm:

After cleaning our M-14's the night before our final command inspection just prior to graduating from USMC Boot Camp at Parris Island in 1973, our DI sprayed WD-40 on all the rifles to keep away the surface rust. The fragrance of WD-40 still takes me back 40 years to my old squad bay of platoon 1028 Company B 1st BN.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 02:23 pm:

I could never get acetone to mix with the ATF I had. I use plain old diesel fuel. It's freed up many rusted parts and tools. Must be some of the additives they put in it but it works for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 02:48 pm:

I've has a number of customers come to the shop saying they need a new AC compressor and they want a quote. A bunch of times the "I need a new compressor noise" disappeared with a little squirt of WD-40 on the belt. The noise would eventually come back, but it proved a point. Good old WD-40. I enjoyed this thread. Thanks guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 03:02 pm:

Lubricating a belt is just a band-aid. The belt is squeaking for a potential number of reasons - worn sheaves, worn belts, old belts etc. WD-40 will only hasten their demise and potentially leave someone stuck somewhere if they don't have a spare one available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 04:00 pm:

Danial I have to admit, rubbing WD40 on my joint is something I'm not willing to try!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 04:21 pm:

But maybe a little oil? Ok sorry...wrong format for that kind of talk but I couldn't resist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:17 pm:

Will water and kerosene actually mix?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:45 pm:

It's a "kerosene-like" substance. Can't recall the name.

Sorry it was 20 years ago and I can't recall everything the WD-40 guys told us but I do distinctly remember that being brought up by one of them in.

And it was interesting to note that years later an LPS rep mentioned it as well but then he could have had an ulterior motive of course...grin...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 08:53 pm:

If I can find the old photos of the tests from the 90s, it would open your eyes.

Salt-spray (salt water) tests showed that certain types of metal coated with WD-40 actually corroded quicker than the same metal uncoated.

Anyway, I'm down off my high horse on WD-40 now...grin...sorry for hijacking the thread, Steve.

The docs got me on some pretty good pain killers after surgery today. I just don't know when to shut up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:01 pm:

So the ATF and acetone do not stay mixed. Are we to shake it up before we use it? If not, are we just getting mostly one ingredient? Can't recall which one is on top? I mixed up a 50/50 batch in an old pendleton bottle with a nice cork in it. Shocked how fast it separated.


Didn't I read once about a way to keep the two ingredients to stay mixed?

How was the mix used in the above testing? Shake just prior to use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John E Cox on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:36 pm:

Discussing WD-40, Marvel mystery oil, STP, Lucas oil, politics, religion, and a few other topics are like trying to teach a pig to sing. You only frustrate the pig. I learned this late in life unfortunately.
I have to admit that I will have to try the 50/50 mixture on my broken Kinner broken cylinder hold down studs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:45 pm:

Yes, you do have to shake it up, but it's no big deal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:49 pm:

I only use the 50/50 mix and it does work. I have removed as many as all the head studs in 10 Model A blocks in a day and only broke 2 using heat and the 50/50 mix. That's 140 studs with only 2 broken, less than 1%. I have to shake it lots but that is little work and after a while it will stay mixed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 10:36 pm:

There is a liquid called DMSO. It is a clear liquid, a bit more viscous than water. It is widely used by sufferers of arthritis in their joints. Rubbed on, it penetrates the skin, and gives, I am told by an aunt who used it for years, almost immediate and long-lasting relief.

One side effect of using DMSO as your pain killer is that it almost immediately gives your breath a strong garlic smell.

Now, down in the Louisiana bayou country where I come from, WD-40 is normally bought in 5 gallon cans. It is used very freely to clean and coat exposed metal surfaces, and it retards rust and also seems to protect the surface from both salt spray and the sulfurous miasma that comes from the "Pogy Plants," which are factories where Menhaden fish are ground, cooked, and turned into cat food among other things.

Without WD-40, the bright metal work on yachts and fishing boats, which are one of three things - Stainless Steel; Chrome plated Brass; and Zamack, whatever that is, will all turn black and corrode away in the presence of the Pogy Plant's awful stink. But WD-40 slows this process.

In the bayou country, it is referred to as "Wonder Dust 40."

There are lots of stories of folks in the bayou country who use WD-40 on their swollen and aching joints. It is readily available, cheap, and I am told it is quite effective. BUT, it makes your breath smell like garlic! This, of course, is not a significant problem in Cajun country, where lots of garlic is used in cooking almost everything.

All this leads me to believe that DMSO is an ingredient of WD-40. Perhaps its main ingredient.

When I tried to find out what DMSO is, the best I could find is that it is a derivative of fish oil. What kind of fish oil, I don't know.

But this I do know -- WD-40 never was intended as a lubricant, and it isn't a particularly good lubricant. Its worst property, when used as a lubricant, is that it evaporates. Lots of folks use it to stop (for instance) door hinge squeaks, and it does so for a time, but there are multitudes of better products for that kind of thing. It's probably used as widely as it is, because it's so readily at-hand in so many homes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 12:03 am:

I used to have a friend, now deceased theta when ever he somehow broke his skin he would use WD 40 as an anti germ agent. It seemed to work. I used to do a lot of work on speedometers and used it to clean parts including the drums. Other than that I think WD-40 is worthless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 06:41 am:

Penetro 90, made by Schaeffer's specialized lubricants, by far the best penetrating oil I have ever used.


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