I am ready to re-install my head light bar on my 27 touring. The question is about the rubber pad that fits between the bar and the fender. I see they sell them in the catalogs. Was the pad actually used by Ford or is it a later offering to help with the paint on our restored cars. ?? I have never seen an original pad on a car. I have only seen steel against steel on the original cars Ive looked at. But that does not mean they did not use them. If it was supplied by Ford I will order one but if not Ill just go steel to steel. ...
That's a good question I don't know but it seems Ford would have used them after all he put rubber anti-squeak between the turtle and the body on the roadsters I think you would want anti-squeak up front too.
No Pad was used
I agree with John. The rubber pad is sold and used just to protect the paint on the fender and prevent vibration. I've seen too many 26-27's that were supposed to be correctly restored show cars that didn't have them. Just make sure to tighten the nuts on the carriage bolts, tight to prevent vibration, but first, make sure when you tighten them that everything fits nice and solid; meaning no gap between the fender and the brace underneath and the fender and the bar on top. If any gap is present, when you snug things up, you'll probably crack your paint and be cursing the rest of the day.
Donnie, Your most interesting question caused me to go out to the Conservatory to inspect my late '27 matching serial numbers, original paint, I'm second owner, coupe. Nope, no pad.
But I'm curious why most people include " '26 '27" when they discuss the headlight bar. I ask this because last year I finally completed the search for a headlight bar for my '26 tudor. I added the adjustable headlight bar because a lot of my 'New and Improved' friends advised me to. They said Henry didn't offer a headlight bar in '26 and, as a consequence, a lot of fenders developed rips. One knowledgeable fellow said the aftermarket guys furnished 3 different styles in '26. Then Ford began offering them for the'27 models. At most swap meets the '27 bar is all you see. I have a NOS nonadjustable '26 bar I'd sell if anyone needs one.
I haven't researched Bruce's Encyclopedia, but I think Ford started using the bar headlight in the 26 model year. My unrestored California fordor made in March 26, had a factory bar.
George, there is a special forum for advertising for that bar.
PS: Great picnic today in ST.John and no "Sonny".
I have seen two types of bars on our Canadian sourced chassis for the 26-7 cars. Initially, the headlight bolted directly to the fenders. The lights have a stem with an oval flange which mates with the two hole pressing in the fender.
The first bar had pressed ends which also mounted on the same two holes on the fender, but then the above mentioned headlight bolted on over the top of the bar, using the same two bolts. The bar was sandwiched between the headlight flange and the fender.
Then came the headlight with the pressed steel foot which bolted to the hole in the bar itself.
Are US cars the same?
Allan from down under.
Thanks guys, I thought the pad is a later type of item. George I think the 26 vs 27 headlight bar question is caused by most of us just grouping all the Improved Fords into a 2 year pile without a lot of thought as to what we really should be asking. I agree that the early 26 till Im unsure of the month was just a headlight on a stand and no bar. Then sometime in possibly late 26 but do not quote me, they went to the bar. There are 2 (maybe 3) different bars that I have seen but unsure of the dates of issue of each. Thanks again, Ill paint my bar tomorrow and install it with out a pad.
Experience for me has the '27 style headlamps that are interchangeable and mount on the tie bar, with a socket like washer and nut, the #6511MX,... use just one style tie rod, the #6517X. These numbers appear in Dec 1926 Price List.
The earlier '26 headlamps, that are Left and Right, are #6501ARX and #6501CRX which mount directly to the fender with a metal pad on the headlamp post.
'27 Tie bar mounted headlamps
Tie bars for the '26 fender mounted lamps are aftermarket. Here is one style, have seen several different ones, and they mount under the headlamp metal pad. None have any rubber pads.
George, it would be interesting to see lots of close up pictures of your original paint '27 coupe if you have the time/possibility to post here some day
Dan, do those early #6501ARX and #6501CRX 1926 Left and Right headlamps actually have the adjust screw horizontal to the bulb socket and display the proper pattern at night for the focus adjustment?
James, the 26 lights on a stalk have the focus screw at 9 o'clock as usual. However there are differences in the buckets. I discovered this when looking to adapt these buckets to earlier 17-25 lights on the longer stalk.
If the longer early stalk is rivetted using the same holes as the 26 light, the slots for the headlight rim will be at 1.30, 4.30, 7.30 and 10.30. rather than at the usual noon, 3.00, 6.00 and 9.00 o'clock. If I rotated the bucket to get them in the correct orientation, then the focus screw and its little indent would be wrong.
looks like I need to find a correct light for a 25 T
Allan from down under.
Howdy Willie, Haven't ever been to the St. John's picnic but will see you at Praha in August - with a Model T. I'm still inclined to believe the '26 Fords were sold without a headlamp bar. Allen, I feel you are right in assuming US Fords were the same in this respect. But I've only seen 2 styles of '26 headlamp bars - the pressed steel nonadjustable and the adjustable pressed steel. If anybody is up to the Benson Ford Archives with a little free time, that might be an interesting research topic. I've already paid them $35 twice to prove TTs didn't originally have electric tail lights and the 'New and Improved' ignition/light switch was introduced on the 2 styles of factory TT cabs in mid-'27 production.
Roger, I really need to learn how to take photographs out of this telephone and insert them into my laptop. ;o)
Roger, you can see a front-on pic of the late '27 coupe in my profile picture. The paint was a flat black/grey when I bought it but tung oil has made it really pop. The bumpers have been painted silver long before I acquired the car. Sorry, I've gotten OT.
Here is what I believe to be an aftermarket adjustable headlight bar that is sandwiched between the original early 26 headlight foot and the fender.
Bruce did address the 1926 to 1927 headlamp transition in his book, CD as well as the online encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#lamps . While he does not give specific dates he does line up the transition for 3 of the 4 headlamps used in 1926 from first to last going left to right at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/hl23.htm . He also mentions the potential of other designs for the tie rod between the lights possibly being used. And he shows the final version of the headlamp bar and headlamps that were used from their introduction in 1926 to the end of production at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/hl23d.htm
James in the photos located at the link mentioned above http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/hl23.htm you can see the position of the headlamp adjusting screw for the headlamps that were mounted to the fender (including some with the tie bar). You can see that the adjusting screw would be horizontal to the lamp only when the lamp is held with the mounting stem perpendicular to the ground. When they were mounted on the fender, the left light had the adjusting screw higher than the socket and the right lamp had the adjusting screw lower than the socket. I would believe,, but I do not know from experience, that you could still easily focus the headlamps by moving the adjusting screw in and out. That as long as the Ford “H” lens were installed correctly – i.e. rotated so they flutes run vertical (see: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/hl22.htm ) the lamp could be adjusted / focused to within acceptable limits. Note, unless there was a special “1926 only headlamp socket” that would keep the headlamp bulb filament parallel to the ground (it would require one for each side – and I doubt they went to that effort) when the lights were moved from Dim to High – then instead of going just up and down, they would also shift slightly towards the center of the car because of the angle the lamp is mounted. There are not any notes that I am aware of saying that was a problem. I.e. it did not blind oncoming traffic or scare the squirrels in the trees etc. If it had been a major issue, there probably would have been some comments about that. I.e. there are notes saying the “accessory bumpers” hide the front license tag etc. See: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc26.htm where it states:
APR 19, 1926 Letter from the Chicago branch
"The Police Department has called to our attention the fact that our license brackets obscure the license place on all cars equipped with bumpers.
"In order that we may comply with the law, our headlamps are being changed so that when assembled to the car, they are fastened together with a tie rod which will make the lamps and fenders more rigid and will change the position of the license plate so that it will not be covered by the bumpers.
"This change will go into effect in the very near future. We are giving you this information in advance in order that you may take care of your stock order accordingly."
Note that letter also gives us a data point indicating the tie bar for the headlamps was NOT used before Apr 19, 1926. How long did it take for the design to be drawn up and implemented I do not know. Also, they may have already had it drawn up and headed towards producing the part when they sent the Apr 19, 1926 letter out. I do not know that either. But if someone goes to the Benson Ford Archives and looks at the factory drawings and the factory change cards for the headlamps – it would give us additional details on when the changes were designed. It normally would take a little time after the design to have them produced. And clearly there would have been some overlap when the old and new styles were being used simultaneously at various assembly plants.
For Allan -- if you have the chance to photograph the 1926 bucket next to the 1917-1925 headlamp bucket showing the difference that would be great. No rush -- this is one of those really long term projects I working on.
For George -- if you have time would you please point me to the thread discussing the TT tail lamp as well as the TT ignition switch? Or if it was not discussed would you please start a thread and/or e-mail me the information. I really want to continue to build on the data Bruce and others previously gathered for us. And items -- especially ones documented by the Benson Ford archives can be very helpful in that effort.
For George (again) – ref your comment, “I'm still inclined to believe the '26 Fords were sold without a headlamp bar.” I can appreciate your reluctance to spend another $35 to prove something. We could go broke exploring the many different items at the Benson Ford. But at http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1926.htm Bruce shared the 1926 model year ran from Aug 1925 to Aug 1926. Since the Apr 19, 1926 letter said the tie rod would be introduced soon – even if it took them two months – it would have been introduced by Jun 19, 1926 and would have been in the 1926 model year. And at the same link/page Bruce stated for the 1926 model year cars:
LAMPS: Magneto powered electric type headlights on the non-starter cars, and six volt electric on the starter models. Nickel-plated rims. The headlamps were mounted on the fenders in early production, then on a tie bar between the fenders in later production. The tie bar evolved through several modifications in 1926. Earlier designs were just a connecting rod between the fender-mounted headlamps. After a few modifications of the tie-bar, the headlamps were finally mounted on the tie-bar itself, instead of on the fenders.
Bruce was human and always welcomed additional information that would confirm his conclusion, correct details, or even change his conclusion. And he freely admitted that some of us would read the same information and look at the same “fossil” evidence and come to different conclusions. That is ok also. But if you have information that would indicate all or some of the tie bars were not implemented before Aug 1926, please let us know so we can add that to our research and hopefully to an updated Model T Encyclopedia or similar document in the future. And as you and others have suggested – if someone can visit the Benson Ford archives – they could most likely obtain some information to confirm the earliest the tie bar could have been introduced. I.e. it would not have been introduced before the factory drawing was made – because the drawing is what told the folks how to make the part.
For Jim – your photo easily could be an aftermarket bar -- and because it mounts without using the existing bolts etc. I would suspect it was supplied later. But Bruce also stated in the links above that there were other styles of tie bars used in addition to the three styles shown in the photos he posted. Perhaps someone has an advertisement for that style of headlamp bar accessory they could share?
Great discussion and thank you to everyone for helping us better document our cars.
Hap l9l5 cut off
My only thought is lack of Ford part #'s for bars to fit the fender mount '26 lamps. Bruce may have written about tie bar variations, but what are the part numbers? Ford had part numbers on everything.
There are many aftermarket bars listed in magazine ads for the fender mounted headlamps.
Perhaps the one Bruce wrote are aftermarket.
The only Ford part listed is the Rod, #1675X for the '27 headlamp bucket that have no post, but fit to the rod boss. This part is listed in the final Parts and Price list book, Aug 5, 1928 as for the '26-'27. But it only fits the later headlamps without post.
I started off with a very original unrestored 1926 touring in the summer of 1960. It was produced in March of '26. It had on bar.
Larry, you said "It had on bar", was that a drink bar. That would be fun at a picnic.
"Sorry Larry, I could not resist".
Is this just an early '26 that someone added a flat bar between the headlights in order to mount the license plate to? 12987766 is a very late 1925 number, but the car was probably built in Copenhagen some time in early 1926.
When I got my '26 Touring, it looked just like Roars. It was in such good shape, it only took me six months to restore it, and yes I made an error on my last post.....on bar should read no bar!
I have had 4 different headlight bars that all had Ford script but each one was different design.
one went under the fender mounted headlights, one was the common one, one was semi-round and the last had a little bow in it. All Ford script and for a T.
My 1926 has the headlight bar and Dads 1927 doesn't
Both cars are original and the 27 never restored. A bit weird eh
Alan in a Western Australia