Engine Rebuilders and Pricing

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Engine Rebuilders and Pricing
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 03:20 am:

Elsewhere, there has been (and is) a discussion on engine (short block) rebuilding and pricing. It is certainly a businesses right to chose whether to post his current pricing, or not. I, for one, prefer to see what I am getting into without having to contact anyone for a price. Why should I have to contact a rebuilder to discuss the details, specific to my engine? Most engine rebuilders who will post their prices, specifically post the operations they preform in the rebuilding process and state that any additional work such as crack repair or warped and burnt intake and exhaust ports, etc. are extra charge and in most cases they state what the additional charges will be. Rebuilding a short block that doesn't require any work over and above the standard rebuilding procedures should be much the same for all rebuilders. Now when I had my quadruple heart bypass, my cardiologist couldn't give me a firm price on the operation because even with an MRI or a CT scan, there are variables that might be a factor, but if an engine rebuilder has a set of 15 or 16 steps that he includes in a rebuilt short block, then it makes it a lot easier to set a price on the job and anything that has to be done extra is an additional cost. I don't know or have a list of all the Model T engine rebuilders from coast to coast, but anyone can go on the internet and see what rebuilding steps go into an engine that they rebuild; what their warranty is; and get the current price from the following suppliers. Ross Lilliker, $2000.00. Snyder's (I am not aware of their rebuilder although I don't think they do them "in house", $2200.00. Ron's Auto Machine, $2325.00. K M W Machine (Ed Katzorke) $950.00-$1250.00. It should be noted that K M W's pricing is for the labor only. He is not a dealer or vendor of engine or transmission parts and the customer has the option of supplying him with the needed parts or he will order them from the vendor of the customer's choice. Either way, the cost of the parts is the same with no mark up. Buying a rebuilt engine is a lot like buying a new car. Some dealers will post a "no haggle" price on the car and others play the "smoke and mirrors" game. Even with the additional freight, I might could have saved a little money by sending my block to K M W in Nevada, but that was questionable, so I ended up taking and picking up my block to Ross Lilliker because he was close enough to save freight charges.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 08:31 am:


quote:

"Rebuilding a short block that doesn't require any work over and above the standard rebuilding procedures should be much the same for all rebuilders."



That might be the case if every rebuilder had the same building, same equipment, same tools, same number of employees paid the same rate, operated in the same state, city and had the same tax rate, had the same insurance, performed exactly the same process, and had the same quality of life.

It just won't happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 08:44 am:

And with 100 year old engines, anything can be wrong with it that you can not see with just eyes. Also depends on how well done you want your engine. Do you want balancing? That would make sense to do it all while it is apart. Do these shops crack check the crank? You get what you pay for even 100 years latter! Would suck to have someone have an engine done just to have it need to be done again in five years. Just think of the mileage most drive these cars, five years is not alot of miles! So most would think they are saving alot by going the cheapest route when it will most likely as expensive in the long run to do it correctly. Just an opinion, Im not trying to start a fight, just my reasoning when having something so important to me rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 09:57 am:

Terry
Estimating the cost to properly rebuild Model T engines is not as easy as you suggest.
In my experience you should prepare yourself for the first of perhaps many calls explaining unforeseen circumstances (not covered by the list price) discovered rebuilding your engine.
It is important to remember this is not like rebuilding a small block Chevy, but a one hundred year old motor which has been previously worked on by many mechanics?? and what are the odds they all knew what they were doing, did not do quality work and did not inflict damage which is expensive to repair.
I have seen $1250 rebuilds and $7500 rebuilds back to original standards. The later required significant engine and transmission repairs requiring many new very expensive parts. Some parts costing as much as the low cost rebuild price cited above to obtain.
Be prepared.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 11:27 am:

Almost 40 years ago i saw a D-17 Allis at a close dealer that looked nice and was told it was all rebuilt! When i could see where the oil pan had not been off i asked the Mechanic! He told me the tractor had a valve job and nothing more! He also told me the high side of the power director slipped! Different words mean different things to different people!Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 12:05 pm:

There are many interesting points being made here that I am attempting to deal with because I need to have a Model A motor rebuilt.

I know it needs oversized pistons (requiring boring), the end-play taken up on the crank, and a new timing gear on the cam.
But there are questions about valves and lifters, the cam, oil pump, rods, the main bearings (babbit), clutch/flywheel, etc.

Do I go with a "professional" shop like J&M (most likely expensive)or a small guy that has a good reputation?

It gets to the point that there are so many questions that I have a problem even thinking about it, so the project goes on hold.
It gets even worse because I will want to do the T motor after the A motor is done and it has the added complexity of the transmission.


If I read between Terry's lines - I am somewhat like him and want to understand what it costs before jumping in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 12:33 pm:

Ken, David, and Ron: I guess I should have prefaced my above statement about "all procedures being the same", with the statement, "all other business factors being the same". The customer cannot control the businessman's overhead and costs: i.e. type and size of building, equipment, tools, number of employees, hourly wage paid, location in a city and/or state with the lowest income or business taxes, amount of insurance for his business and employees, and quality of life (amount of profit in his pocket). I was referring to the basic procedures done by a reputable rebuilder, i.e.: Cleaning and degreasing, resurfacing or decking the block, painting, reboring, valve work including seats, reground cam, rebabbitted rods, rebabbitted mains, line boring, reground crank, and final assembly into short block using new parts indicated to customer up front: pistons and rings, valves and seats, valve springs and lifters. and new timing gears. Obviously, if a customer furnishes cores that need a lot of repair over and above the norm, or he wants additional work, not furnished in a standard rebuild, such as balancing, porting, installation of an A or Scat crank, inserts instead of Babbitt, broken stud removal and other similar things, those items are not part of most standard rebuilds and are usually stated as such. That is not to say that some of them such as balancing are not worthwhile investments and sometimes the condition of the parts supplied to the rebuilder are less than quality parts; cracked and broken parts, extremely rusted or corroded parts, broken studs, etc. If the customer can't furnish the rebuilder with more suitable parts for rebuilding, then obviously, the replacement of these items increases the rebuilding cost. Once again, these items are not normally considered part of a standard rebuild. I am not plugging any rebuilder but I have had three short blocks rebuild by three of the rebuilders that I mentioned and all have proven satisfactory and reliable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

If you get a rebore and new pistons with new valves that is not a rebuild.
It is a valve job and new pistons.

If you get the mains rebbitted and the crank ground, that is not a rebuild. It is a rebbitted main job.

I get engines for a rebuild that don't need to be rebuilt, they just need to be bored and the rods rebabbitted and a valve job.
If the mains are good that saves $600.

I just finished a Russian model B that came for a rebuild.
The main & rod babbit was good, the pistons were good but the valves were terrible.
It got honed, new rings, new valves, new guides, new seats, new springs, new lifters and the cam reground.
After cleaning the block twice, painting it and a new clutch with the flywheel turned it runs great, starts right off, doesn't use oil and has plenty of power.
I did not rebuild that engine:
I cleaned it, painted it and gave it a ring & valve job. A good overhaul? Yes. Not a rebuild.
I am nearly finished with an MGTD engine.
It got bored, new pistons, crank reground, cam ground, lifters resurfaced, flywheel resurfaced, rods resized, new valves and guides and cam bearings. The timing chain was replaced, the sprockets had been done already.
The crank, flywheel, new clutch, rods and pistons were balanced. That is a rebuild.
Anything less is an overhaul or a repair.
Balancing need not be included in a rebuild, it just makes for a nicer running engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 12:54 pm:

If you get a rebore and new pistons with new valves that is not a rebuild.
It is a valve job and new pistons.

If you get the mains rebbitted and the crank ground, that is not a rebuild. It is a rebbitted main job.

I get engines for a rebuild that don't need to be rebuilt, they just need to be bored and the rods rebabbitted and a valve job.
If the mains are good that saves $600.

I just finished a Russian model B that came for a rebuild.
The main & rod babbit was good, the pistons were good but the valves were terrible.
It got honed, new rings, new valves, new guides, new seats, new springs, new lifters and the cam reground.
After cleaning the block twice, painting it and a new clutch with the flywheel turned it runs great, starts right off, doesn't use oil and has plenty of power.
I did not rebuild that engine:
I cleaned it, painted it and gave it a ring & valve job. A good overhaul? Yes. Not a rebuild.
I am nearly finished with an MGTD engine.
It got bored, new pistons, crank reground, cam ground, lifters resurfaced, flywheel resurfaced, rods resized, new valves and guides and cam bearings. The timing chain was replaced, the sprockets had been done already.
The crank, flywheel, new clutch, rods and pistons were balanced. That is a rebuild.
Anything less is an overhaul or a repair.
Balancing need not be included in a rebuild, it just makes for a nicer running engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 01:49 pm:

Almost everyone has heard or seen the business slogan: "the bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory". A lot of shops do excellent quality work, but there can be a sizable price difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 04:15 pm:

Terry
I believe you are seeking something that, under the circumstances, cannot easily co-exist.
You want a FFP (firm, fixed price) for a list of work performed on a 100 year old engine AND you desire a high quality job. The rebuilder will usually always find work that needs to be performed to obtain a quality job.
Two outcomes exist; you accept the price increase for the necessary extra work and get a quality job or you are unwilling to pay for the extra work. In the former case you get a quality job. In the later case, in my view, YOU compromised the job and if the engine subsequently fails you own it.
I view list prices for Model T engine work as a trap for logical people. Over the years I have seen it too many times; the $1500 engine "rebuild" results in a $3000 bill. No doubt there are exceptions.
I am currently having a no expense spared high quality Model T engine reworked by, what I view, the best Model T engine rebuilder in the country. I trust the man and will accept any judgements or suggestions he makes and am ready to pay for it.
Your mileage will vary.
Good luck
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 05:08 pm:

Ron, I am not currently seeking anything. My only message is: "Buyer Be Aware". I have had two short blocks and one long block rebuilt in the last five years, by different engine builders, if for no other reason than to see if I could tell any difference in work quality. I cannot, and do not, see any difference in workmanship. The lowest priced rebuild has fulfilled my expectations as well as the most expensive. Those three engines completely fill my "to do" list. I am working on no other T engines, now or in the foreseeable future. As long as an engine builder has good references, I just don't feel like padding the higher priced builder's pockets. I can put the savings to some other part of my restorations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Monday, July 14, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

Ron,

Would like to know who you think is the best engine builder in the country.

I have a friend doing a restore on a 1911 touring and would like a rebuilder fairly close to him, state wise. He lives in Memphis..


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