How do you properly adjust kevlar bands. ??

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: How do you properly adjust kevlar bands. ??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Saturday, July 19, 2014 - 11:26 pm:

I have a new set of kevlars, and have never used them before. I have always used Scandanavian. When I had the engine overhauled I had the kevlars installed then, by a very qualified engine builder. I have the engine running good and several hours on the engine. Oil has been changed. The bands were left very loose at the first start up, and the engine was new and tight. After a little break in time, the engine will hand crank on mag and I was getting free starts most of the time. So I started "sneeking up" on the bands. I have them adjusted to be tight just before the pedals hit the back of the slots. I can just slide my little finger in the back of the slot, with the pedals pushed down tight. I have driven several miles with them adjusted like that. I am still hand cranking the engine. It cranks over fairly easy and does not try to "creep". I have readjusted twice to the same measurement in the slots. The engine does not over heat. My issue is, I do not get free starts anymore. And the engine seems to "die hard" when I turn the key off, like it is very tight. It seems to be dying at a different point now, so no more free starts. My main concern is the way it seems to "die hard" It just comes to a sudden and complete fast stop .... It was not doing that before I started messing with the bands. If I loosen the bands much more the, bands slip while driving because the pedals bottom out in the slots ..... I have wondered if my floorboards are right. They are not original, and Im not sure if they are repros or made by the previous owner. They appear to be the good repro, solid wood ones, sold by the vendors and everything looks OK to me, but I have no originals to compare them to .... Some measurements would be appreciated ... and any and all help is appreciated ... I hope this is not too close to a what oil to use, what bands to use, or waterpump question ...:-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 02:27 am:

Donnie, the slot isn't the only thing you have to worry about. The pedal cams may be worn, most are. If they are worn, the pedal has to move too far for the bands to engage. In other words, the bands have to be adjusted too tight for them to engage. If the cams are worn, they can be built up very easily with a MIG welder and dressed up a bit with a die grinder. I did that on my TT and it worked out great. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 08:51 am:

Yesterday a friend came over with his hogshead and pedals for me to look at. He had a new accessory brake pedal, and new reproduction brake clutch and reverse cams.

Bottom line the cams were perfect reproductions, but the brake pedal was not made right. It fit the cam so poorly that it would place 1/4 - 3/8" preload on the band when the pedal was at rest! This would have resulted in constantly dragging brakes. He is going to drill the pedal from the shaft, then grind the pedal until it fits properly, and finally re - rivet the pedal to the shaft.

After that we had coffee and cup cakes.



Your problem is not the brake, because it happens with the car stopped, but your brake band could also be adjusted too tight. Try driving the car with the floor boards removed. Adjust the bands to be as loose as possible with a positive brake and no slippage of low or reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:24 am:

Royce you should be eating off the floor of that shop! Nice T models in there!

Donnie, I seem to be in the minority on this site. I see you have the bands adjusted perfectly... in a little while they are likely to give you a sterling opportunity about how to pull your engine out, replace drums, rebuild the engine and transmission, and re-install engine.

In my opinion you should be learning to install wooden bands now. After the broken drum is also a workable time to learn this skill. I'm a slow learner, it took me four drums before I learned how to get rid of my Kevlar.

It sounds like you have a band too tight, low or reverse... the two drums most likely to break. I wouldn't drive the car until the problem is corrected ... by correct adjustment or better yet by correct lining material replacement.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:29 am:

Could it be that your rings have finally seated, compression in the cylinders has gone up, and the engine is very happy now? That would account for the engine stopping fast when you shut it off and it would also account for the lack of free starts. I know your engine builder, he would have done something about worn pedal cams when he put your engine together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 10:13 am:

I had a similar problem and cracked two low drums before I solved it. I replaced the shaft and the cams with vendor parts, and still had the problem. If I took out the floorboards I could get the adjustment just right, but with the floorboards in, the low would not work. If I tightened it to work just above the floorboard, it was too tight.

I then bent the low pedal back toward the seat about 2 inches. Now it works just fine.

This car has 3-1 gearing in the rear axle and I need to push the low very hard to keep it from slipping when I start out and I think that from years of pushing it down hard it bent the pedal shaft and that's what caused the problem.

To test whether your bands are too tight park on a level surface. Back off the adjustment of all bands and then tighten one band at a time. Put the parking lever into the neutral position. Push the car. For the brake band, as you tighten, you will notice the point where the car starts to get harder to push. Back off until it rolls freely. If the engine turns when you push in neutral the low or reverse is too tight. Now grab the crank and turn it. If the car rolls when you turn the crank, your bands are too tight. If you hand crank to start, your crank should turn easy. You will feel the compression, but not a constant drag. Likewise with a starter, it will spin the engine easily when the bands are set correctly. By doing this, you will be able to find the spot where the band starts to get too tight and back off until it doesn't bind.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 03:47 pm:

Norman you mentioned that your low pedal was bent to far in from years of you and others pushing on the pedal.
Was it bent just below the pedal head itself or further down the pedal shaft.

I wonder if there is any diagram available of a side view of a 'unbent' pedal.

I have several old pedals and a couple of extra transmission covers that are complete. After looking at them some of the low pedals are a little more 'bent' backward than the others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 04:15 pm:

Kevlar bands have been used by thousands of Model T drivers (including me) for thousands of miles without breaking a drum. If you have broken drums by using Kevlar bands, you did something else wrong. The material is not the culprit.

I believe Norm has the right idea. I too have had to bend low-speed pedals up to get things where they needed to be. If you have good pedal cams and new pedal supports, a bent pedal is likely the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 04:50 pm:

Mike Walker is CORRECT. Kevlar does not break drums. I buy every transmission I can, I HAVE even taken to buying complete engines just to get the transmissions. One thing I find is that many, many drums are simply worn too thin. Naturally if you install a very thin drum you will crack it no matter what material you use. Also the number one drum most often broken is the reverse by these yahoos that use the reverse as a brake drum.
Someone will jump in and say in an emergency use your reverse, what do they think the emergency brake handle is for? If your emergency brake won't stop your T then you don't know how to adjust it.

brake checker

I doubt that many if any have torn as many transmission apart as I have and its funny that I find somewhere around 50 percent of the transmission that I tear apart have a cracked drum and none of them have ever seen KEVLAR.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 07:09 pm:

I needed three drums and purchased five barn fresh transmissions. I got 15 bad drums and purchased three new drums because of that issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 07:24 pm:

I don't have any pictures of an unbent pedal, but in some of the pictures in books about the Model T there are pictures. The test is in finding the highest pedal adjustment which doesn't cause the band to drag on the drum. Then put in the floorboard. If the adjustment is below the floorboard, something is bent.

I have also helped another member who had a similar experience. The pedal also had to be bent. Same goes for the brake pedal. The reverse is usually OK.

Two things lead to cracked drums. 1. dragging all the time it is in high, neutral, or reverse.
2. Slipping the low especially when going uphill.

What I do when I start out in low is get the engine running as slow as possible without stalling, and push down hard. Then give it gas to pick up speed. The band should not be slipped when you start out from a stop. However it will not be as damaging to slip it for a few seconds as long as you shift right into high. But slipping in low due to need of band adjustment especially going uphill will also cause a problem. The problem is not the kevlar, but it is the slipping or dragging. The cotton or wood will burn and wear out, but kevlar will not. It just gets hot until the drum cracks.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 07:30 pm:

Norm, can you describe the tooling and process for bending the low pedal back up to the proper shape? Was it done in the car?

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

Thanks for the input. I have a few more issues now. I adjusted the reverse band 1/2 turn looser. The other 2 bands are still the same. All three almost bottom out now when they get tight. The car starts easily by hand and does not seem to drag when cold. I took it on a 10 mile drive today. When I got home the bands seem to grab quicker, with very little travel of the pedal. Setting in neutral it sounds like the bands are almost engaging. You can hear band/drum noise. It sits still in neutral but you hear the rumbling in the trans like you are just trying to apply the bands. I pulled back on all the pedals and no change. I drove the car quickly into the shop and then no rumbling or band noise. ??? I opened the trans again and everything still looks perfect ... Im going to loosen them all tomorrow and try again with out the floorboards and then check the pedals .... thanks again, Ill update as I find anything else. .. I almost forgot, I looked at the cams today and they look very good, maybe even new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:41 pm:

Donnie -- I would expect that you got new pedal supports with your recent rebuild.

Mark -- I'm not Norm, but since he hasn't answered yet, I will. You can bend the pedals in the car. What I did was apply heat fairly low down on the pedal arm until it was red-hot and bend it using a pipe wrench on the top of the pedal. It's a piece of cake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:43 pm:

Dave, One more thing I forgot to add. It took 12 transmissions for me to find enough good drums. I never found a reverse drum I wanted to use so I bought a new reverse drum on a used good gear. I would say 50 present of the lows or brake drums were cracked and 90 present of the reverse drums were cracked and the remaining 10 present were very thin. One good thing about the new reverse drum is they are thicker. and very nicely made. and as you stated I found no Kevlar bands, just old Scandinavians


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 09:50 pm:

Mike, I agree, everything on the rebuild is top notch. Im hoping to find bent pedals tomorrow... Ill play with them a little longer before I go back to Scandinavians. I have 2 more old sets that are not "tar babies"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, July 20, 2014 - 11:45 pm:

When I put kevlar linings in my '27 I set them loose.....not so loose they slipped but loose as in "pedal nearly to the floor".
I adjusted the low band twice and the reverse and brake got adjusted once.
That's over a year ago and I drive the Tudor quite a bit.
I don't see any further adjustments any time soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 07:42 am:

How strong are the springs. I use stronger springs with Kevlar band to keep them from dragging. I also found that it took a few adjustments with Kevlar initially but then they do not require adjustment again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 08:25 am:

Proper adjustment requires removal of the Kevlar bands and replacement with wood bands!! LOL, just teasing. =)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 09:25 am:

You don't need no steenking springs with wood bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lee Frost Pierce on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 03:10 pm:

No one has mentioned bands being out of round.
They must be round so they don't drag. I place a drum on the bench and place a drum around it. It should not take more than 1/2 inch to close the ears together. This is why the wood bands can not be installed through the hogs head, as the bands will bend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 05:21 pm:

Is that Royce Senior in the wheel chair? How is he doing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 05:23 pm:

That green 1917 roadster sure looks like the one he had in Minneapolis and Bloomington MN in the 1950s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 05:27 pm:

The three tier E&J side lights are nice. I use a set on my 1910. I have been told by Mark Cameron that the ones with the round lens (on your 09 and my 10) are not correct . Should be the ones with the square lens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:15 pm:

Darel,

If you see Mark Cameron tell him I disagree. It's hard to find a picture of a water pump equipped Model T with anything except E&J lamps with the round lens, either with the lip ring or without. Even the factory catalog shows them.

Dad's doing great, he just doesn't walk too well.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:22 pm:

I wonder if I am not thinking of the "flared lens". I have a half of dozen of parts three tier E&Js, several with out flared round lens. I will go look to see if some are square lens in front. I see you are correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:34 pm:

I wonder if I am not thinking of the "flared lens". I have a half of dozen of parts three tier E&Js, several with out flared round lens. I will go look to see if some are square lens in front. I see you are correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:42 pm:

Now I went and posted twice. I went to check and yes, all three tier E&Js have round lens in front. The T Ford used the ones without a flare. You are correct. I should have checked sooner. I should not have jumped in with out checking. I now have to tell Cameron I misquoted him. Good to hear Royce Sr. id doing well. He holds his years well and I should not refer to him as "old", but is it okay to say that he is an "old" friend?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

Update on todays work. I checked the pedals and they needed to be bent back toward the rear of the floorboard notches. There was a good inch to inch and a half gap. So after burning all the paint off every pedal and even bending the handbrake over to clear the new position of the pedals. (burt paint off it also) I now have the pedals sitting in the rear of the notches, the reverse pedal is no longer hitting the hogshead when fully depressed, and I also made more of a "curl" to the pedals to bring the foot pad back farther. I also spread the pedals more to give extra room for the reverse and my big foot. It was a tortuous, slow process. By doing all of that, I was able to back off the adjustment of all three of the bands one full turn. The engine and trans now sound better, and the engine dies as normal. I am also back to free starts over 90 percent of the time. The engine is a "happy engine" once again. I think it was all a combination of pedals bent a little wrong, and floorboards made a little wrong. I also think my floorboard pedal notch metal plates are installed 3/8 inch too low. The seam of the 2 plates is 3/8 inch lower than the seam of the 2 upper floorboards. I may move my plates as it will give me another 3/8 inch of pedal travel and the pedals will be totally in the rear of the notch. Thanks for the input......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 11:28 pm:

Way to go Donnie!!!! Craig Anderson has the correct adjustment regime. Ons=ce they are bedded in, set and forget.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 09:46 am:

Well done. Now that you have so much more room to depress the pedals, one thing to watch for on the low pedal is, make sure that the low pedal can't be pushed so far down that the clutch link goes "over center" and causes the low pedal to stick in the low position, see the attached article from Murray Fahnestock:

adjust01

adjust02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 11:16 am:

Lee,you are correct about the roundness of the bands. For Kevlar they must be perfectly round. That is not necissary for wood. You can install the wood bands through the Hog's Head they will get out of round but they don't care. They will pretty much return to round in use, if they don't they still work great and last a long time.

Kevlar cannot be installed through the access door as they will go out of round. An out of round Kevlar band will drag and break your drum.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 11:42 am:

Here's the four spout oiler from the ad in Marks post on adjusting for free neutral.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 02:02 pm:

My bands were installed when the engine was rebuilt, before the hogs head was installed. If installing thru the inspection cover, any bending should be to a larger circle, and should not cause a problem. If carefull, any bending should be very slight. I think the biggest band out of round issue is "small kinks" to the metal bands or bends at the ears. Those should be addressed before installing the lining. I am no Kevlar expert by a very long shot, but I can not see why they can not be installed thru the top. (but I have been wrong before) Jay, I always like the accessories. "Do you change your oil every 600 miles. ???" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 02:25 pm:

Donnie
I don't think that Jay has reached the 600 mile mark yet, it's only 91 years old, but I might be incorrect on that. Grin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 02:35 pm:

I did the bands on my '27 Tudor through the top.
It wasn't EASY and I may have invented one or two new expletives but it really wasn't THAT bad either.
The "springy loopy tool" for pulling the bands around made things a lot easier than it would have been without it.
By the way.......stuff the right side with rags BEFORE you remove the pedal adjusting nuts and washers.......and again when you get the bands threaded in again.

I lined the bands the Kohnke way >>> http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/269410.html?1330084927


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, July 22, 2014 - 02:51 pm:

After looking at the MTFCA transmission rebuild book and some other T books nothing is said about having bent pedals or resetting the pedals for the correct angle.
This ought to be added to the Transmission book or at least a Transmission cover restoration book that's dedicated to it. Maybe I missed it.

Is this subject covered in any publications at all?
Its good to know for "experts" and as well as newbies.
And of course a guy might find it using the forum search.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 23, 2014 - 11:14 am:

Another thing about installing bands, applies to all types of bands (except wood) Start with the ends and work toward the middle. Leave about 1/8 inch beyond the end of the band at each end, then put in the rivet next to the end, at each end, leaving a loop in the band material which is worked toward the center. That way you will press the band lining tight against the band. Some people start at the center and work out. This method leaves the material loose between rivets which will cause a drag on the drum. It will wear out the band material fast. If it is kevlar which does not wear out it will just keep dragging and getting hot.
Norm


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