Hi everyone im new here and new to model T's. Im looking for help on getting her running after sitting for at least 10 years. My name is Jason and the T is my grandfathers.
A little info first.
Its a 1914 and it ran and drove before being parked. I took a look over it last time i was over and it seems to be in good shape mostly. A few things i noticed right away was that the radiator core was pretty beat up so we have a new core to install. Then i noticed the choke wasnt hooked up to either the inside or the front by the radiator. There is also a bit of fuel or something on the bottom of the fuel line under the car.
Now im pretty good at working on cars at 22 though i mostly work on my own cars involving japanese turbo engines. But for the most part the T seems very simple. So before i go ahead i was hopeing you guys could help me understand what to do so it runs great.
1. what kind of gas does it run on? My grandfather said he put pump gas in it but that doesnt sound right to me for a car designed back in leaded gas time.
2. What kind of oil is the best for it and how much? I live in Vancouver Canada and it only gets driven in the summer so its pretty hot out rightnow.
3. Spark plugs and spark plug leads. The spark plugs look pretty old and rusty so i want to change those and gap them right where would i start? Also the leads look sweaty almost and old should i replace them too?
4. I want to rebuild the carb before hand. Anything i should know about before i rip into it?
5. Who do i buy parts from besides a dealership..
Anyway i know this is alot of words right off the bat but i hate starting a thread with nothing for people to go off of. I really appreciate any help and hope i can take my grandfather out in his T this summer which he would really enjoy. Cheers guys!
1. Ordinary unleaded - Ts pre-date the introduction of TEL (lead). Try to minimise the ethanol content. 5% is OK, 10% may cause problems.
2. The cheapest SAE 30 you can find
3. Companies such as Langs, Chaffins and Snyders sell plugs. The cheap ones are fine. 0.030" gap. These companies also sell leads - but they are only copper, so yours are probably fine, even if they look poor.
4. Find which type of carb you have. Get/study the catalogues - see above - search this forum for hints for your carb.
5. Not a dealership. See 3 above. Those companies all have on-line catalogues.
Ok thank you very much!
We have 94 octane with no ethanol here if that works? It seems all other gas here has 10% ethanol.
I may get some pictures for you guys this week to help me out and also because who doesnt like seeing a T.
You have quite a bit to learn, but it is fun....
1. Uses regular unleaded gas. The engine was made before they put lead in gas!
2. I prefer SAE 30 or if not available then diesel multigrade.
3. The best plugs are Champion X with gap at 0.025". If too expensive the Motocraft A25 are OK.
4. There several critical settings on all the Model T carbs, different years use different models, best get a Carb book from the MTFCA.
5. You will not find any Model T parts at a Ford dealer, in the States I use Snyder in OH or Chaffin in CA,
Welcome to the club....
1 As Chris and the other guys have said, the T came before leaded gas. I buy whatever is least expensive.
2 Ditto on oil. Usually the cheapest 10W30 is the Wal-Mart house brand.
3 I agree on Champion X, BUT they cost $20 or more each if you buy them new. Id start with the Motorcraft at a lot lower price to get started, and shop for X's on eBay or at swap meets. I've never paid over $10 for one, and usually pay $5-$7 or less.
4 What carb is it? There are several used on T's. Lots of parts are available for some, not so much for others. Yes, get the book.
5 There are lots of good parts dealers. My favorites are Lang's, Chaffin's, Birdhaven, and Bob's. Also good are Fun Projects and R.V. Anderson for some special items. I steer clear of Mac's, but their catalogue is a good reference because of its great illustrations. Bob's is currently having a close out sale which may save you some dough.
Finally, welcome to the affliction, as the saying goes, and here's some homework for you:
There is a T parts dealer in Alberta http://georgemoir.ca/ There is also Ford-N-More in Spokane, Wa they do ship internationally or to the border then you can bring it across. Hope you get it going.
There is quite a number of Model T folks in and around Vancouver, Jason. Some of them contribute to this forum, occasionally. I live south of you near Tacoma, WA and have a lot of new & used parts. We also have a '14 Touring which we just had up in Surrey a couple weeks ago for a tour about Langley & Abottsford.
You've received good advice above. The only thing I can add is to make sure the gas tank and gas line is clean with no varnish. And come back to us after every completed step and report on your progress so we can enjoy vicariously.
No two sets of champion plugs run the same. I run originals in mine gapped between .030 and .032. Reproduction champions say to gap them at .025. Ford said to gap them at 1/32nd of an inch. Each car is different. Your mileage will vary
Will it turn over or is it set up? I would remove the floor boards and take the 6 screws out of the small cover on the trans.A quick look will let you see what is in your engine.Is there a funny shaped screen under the cover? If not you need one and at least two gasketts.Hot/cold hot/cold you might have some rust and plenty of dirt.I would drop the old oil and use a detergent 5 or 10 30! Find your local model T people!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck.Bud.
Here is a basic outline of getting it going:
Here are the instructions on taking your T out of mothballs from the Towe Museum:
"REMOVING A ‘T’ FROM MOTHBALLS
GETTING IT READY FOR DURABLE TOURING
Yep, it takes more than a can of gas and a new battery to get a mothball 'T' [10-50 years storage] ready to go on the road!
You always hear, "It ran OK 10 years ago!" In my experience, it takes all the checks, cleaning, repairs, and adjustments outlined below to get through the first mile!
Install a new 6-volt battery, negative to ground. Remove and clean ground strap bolt on the frame. Install a ground strap from the bolt at the emergency brake cross shaft bracket to the bottom U-joint cover bolt on the crankcase. Use a heavy woven-style cable or a #1 gauge cable with flat ends. Loosen one bolt on the starter and re-tighten. This breaks corrosion, if any.
Remove and disassemble the starter switch. Sand the contacts to shiny clean. Remove starter cable nut at starter. Tighten bottom nut to just snug. These are pinned and soldered on the inside. Sometimes the solder joint breaks loose and the pin pulls out easily if over-tightened.
Install new #1 gauge cables, from the battery to the switch and from the switch to the starter. Old cables are usually corroded even when you cannot see the green.
Caution: Do not use 12 volt cables [number 4 or 6 gauge]. 12-volt cables will get warm or hot during crank, plus the cranking may be very slow.
It is best to test the starting system with a digital voltmeter. For best results, acceptable voltage drop during cranking readings are:
Cable, batt. to starter switch 0.2 volt max
Starter switch, post-post 0.2 volt max
Cable, starter switch to starter0.2 volt max
Cable, batt. neg.[-] to engine0.2 volt max
Batt. pos. [ +] to neg. [-] 4.5 min [cold]
Battery, positive to negative5.0 min [hot]
Starter draw 400 amps max
See Figure 1 on "How to Make Voltage Drop Measurements".
For better starter switch durability, install a '48 Ford starter, 6-volt solenoid. Use the 'T' starter switch for the solenoid 'control' switch to ground. See Figure 2 on 'hooking up a solenoid'.
If the starter is 'sluggish' at this point, try spraying some electronic or motor cleaner on the starter commutator during crank. If the current draw is over 400 amps, have the starter re-built.
During re-build, install a seal in the end of the starter mount housing. See Figure 3 for how to. This will prevent massive oil leaks out of the starter.
Test starter after re-build by hooking the starter post to a 6-volt battery plus (+) terminal with heavy jumper cables. Hold the starter on the floor. Connect the negative (-) terminal to the starter at the mounting bolt flange. Run starter motor [no load]. Grasp the starter shaft and hold to slow down the shaft. If you can slow it down some, but can't stop it, the starter is good. If you can stop it [shaft], it won't crank engine. During this test, the amps will go up to 75 at around 4.3 volts.
The commutator [timer], coils, and coil box are usually in need of cleaning, adjusting, and tightening. Corrosion takes its toll from sitting.
Clean the timer and roller [or brush] with solvent and sand the grounding bars to shiny clean. Sand the roller or brush tip. Sand the brush-type commutator bars and clean with solvent.
Check the wiring from the commutator to the coil primary for shorts and opens by disconnecting both ends. for testing. Re-install wires to commutator, routing them so they will not touch metal or kink when advancing or retarding the spark.
On roller-type commutators, oil rotor and commutator bars liberally with motor oil upon re-assembly. On brush-type commutators. I recommend leaving the brush and commutator strips dry.
Disassemble the coil box connectors. Clean all the hardware in muriatic swimming pool acid [goggles and gloves]. It is best to solder the contacts to the small carriage bolts . Install new wood [kit from 'T' suppliers]. Treat the wood with water sealer, but do not paint the wood, especially with black paint. Painting may cause shorts. Black paint has charcoal, a conductor!
I strongly recommend you let a professional restore the coils, installing new points and modern condensers, and adjusting to the correct current draw using the hand crank magneto. You will more than likely have reasonable trouble-free operation. Adjusting the gap to a 'strong buzz' does not guarantee good spark.
Clean or replace the spark plugs and adjust the gap to 0.025 inches.
You may want to compare the cost of a distributor to 'T' coil repair. If you're showing your 'T', stay with the original coils and timer to maintain authenticity. If you want a driver [durability and smoother acceleration] purchase a distributor, 6-volt coil, and plug wires.
If using a distributor, disconnect the 'T' coil box primary wire and connect it to the new 6-volt coil + terminal. Connect the coil terminal to the distributor. Use number 14-gauge wire for all primary wire hook up.
If your 'T' is a 12-volt system, install a 'dropping' resistor to cut the voltage from 12 to nine.
Adjust the point gap to 0.017 inches if no specification is provided.
The distributor turns clockwise. Remove number one plug and turn crank to TDC on the compression stroke. Retard the spark lever, turn the distributor body in the counter-clockwise direction until the points just start to open. This is the retarded firing position on number one cylinder [TDC].
Install the advance linkage and adjust the rod length with the spark control lever in the retard position to match the retard position of the distributor. Tighten distributor housing clamp bolt.
Check advance linkage for binding.
If your new distributor has advance weights, retard to start, then advance the spark by moving the lever down ½ inch from the retard position. The automatic advance will take care of additional distributor advance at higher RPM.
Remove all four plugs and measure the compression. Continually crank the engine until the compression pressure has built up four times. Record the compression pressure of each cylinder. A good 'T' engine [cold] will crank 50 psi on each cylinder. 45 psi is OK. 25 psi is a worn engine or bad valves and there may not be enough power to propel the car. If the compression pressure varies over 5 psi from cylinder to cylinder, grind the valves and set the tappet clearance to around 0.012 inches.
If there's no starter, remove all four plugs. Crank each cylinder through compression with your thumb covering the plug hole. If the pressure is about equal in all cylinders, the valves are probably OK. Also, visually look down each plug hole at top of valves. If they are the same color, the odds are they're good enough to start the engine.
Drain the oil. Install four quarts of 20-50 weight oil. Check for dripping out of the top oil level petcock.
If the old oil is 'jelly' or 'syrup' let it drain overnight.
Install pan plug using a small amount of RTV gasket maker on washer.
If equipped with an external oiler, disassemble and verify it's not plugged up.
After start up, let engine warm up for one minute at around 1000 RPM.
Increase the RPM to 1500 and hold it steady. Then, short each cylinder, one at a time, to detect rod bearing knock. If the rod knock(s) goes away with a warm engine, the rods are slightly loose. If the rod knock(s) continues with a warm engine, adjust the rods to 0.002 inches clearance and install Chevrolet-style oil dippers ["T" supply houses stock the dippers].
Refer to the 'Engine Manual' published by MTFCA for detailed procedures.
Drain water and re-fill. Add a cup of StaLube 'soluble oil'.
If the tubes are rusted on the top end, remove radiator and have it professionally checked and flushed at a radiator shop.
In the fuel system, checks include the fuel tank, fuel lines, filter, carburetor, and intake manifold leaks.
Start at the fuel tank. If it's full of flakey rust inside, or there is 'algae' and\or it has rust holes in the bottom, have it restored professionally or replace it.
Disassemble the fuel sediment bowl, clean in muriatic acid and replace the filter screen.
Set up sediment bowl in vice. Loosen front fitting. Use a propane torch to heat bowl casting.
Reassemble and install the sediment bowl into the tank. Use aviation, gas-resistant sealant on the threads. Do not get sealant inside gas passages. Do not use 'Teflon' tape. Gasoline will dissolve the tape, and it may get inside, causing flooding problems.
Pour in one gallon of gas and test for leaks and flow out the sediment bowl. Install the gas line over the frame rail. Route the fuel line under the splash shield parallel to the frame rail. Route fuel line between firewall and frame rail adjacent to firewall to frame bracket. This routing will minimize heat transfer into fuel line. Other routings may cause fuel foaming ['vapor lock'].
Disassemble carburetor and clean in carburetor cleaner. If float needle valve seat is 'frozen' in the carburetor top, leave it alone. Use old needle valve.
If the needle valve seat can be removed, replace it with a new 'Viton' tip needle and seat or a double check ball-style valve [Grose Jet].
Test the float [brass] in hot water. If small bubbles escape while immersed, the float is defective. Replace it!
The older carburetors use a cork float. If intact, sand lightly with 320 grit sand paper. Coat with gas-resistant epoxy [Hobby Poxy #1]. Wipe off excess before the epoxy cures. Coat a second time. Wipe again. Check weight before and after each coating. Less than 0.1 ounce increase in weight is OK. If more, start again with a new cork float [available from 'T' parts suppliers].
A new cork float must be coated with very light coats of gas-resistant epoxy. The same technique discussed above applies to new cork floats.
Gas-resistant- Try it out; soak a small amount of cured epoxy in gas. It if softens, try another brand. If the float gets too heavy, it will sink, causing flooding!
Adjust the float to specification. Turn carburetor upside-down. Usually, if the float is 'level' with the top surface of carburetor, the float level is OK.
Re-assemble and install carburetor. Adjust needle valve to one turn open from seat. Most 'Ts' run at around ½ to ¾ turn.
If adjustment is a lot different than this on NH carburetors, something may be wrong with the carburetor or float. Review the Ford 'T' Service Manual or the Carburetor Manual published by the MTFCA.
By now, you know if 'neutral' has a slight drag which is normal. In some cases, long storage and some oils will allow the clutch disks to 'seize up', caused by 'congealing' of the old oil. If this occurs, jack up one rear wheel so a 'neutral' will be available for easy start up.
To test for neutral [before start up] pull the emergency brake lever all the way back [neutral and rear wheel brake]. If it cranks with the starter, neutral is OK. If not, pull the engine through with the hand crank. If no neutral, then try and free up after start up [see 'Run Start up' later in this text].
If neutral is OK, check the pedal adjustments next. Low gear pedal should tighten the band just before hitting the floor board. The high gear lever should begin to engage the clutch shaft lever for neutral about midway between all the way down and the vertical position. The rear wheel brakes should not drag at this point. Pull the brake lever to vertical position; both rear wheels should have an equal heavy drag [see Rear Axle Drive Shaft and Brake Adjustment].
The transmission brake pedal should engage about one inch above the floor board.
The reverse band should engage about halfway between full up and the floor board.
If band adjustment cannot be obtained, review the Ford 'T' Service Manual or the Transmission Manual [MTFCA] for relining and adjustment procedures.
STEERING AND FRONT AXLE
Start with the steering gear. Remove the steering wheel and steering gear cover. Pack with moly chassis lube or wheel bearing grease. Lube steering collar [lower part] with grease cup.
Check the pitman arm on the shaft. Many times this nut and arm are loose on the steering shaft. Check woodruff key for slop. Oil threads and tighten to around 75 pound feet torque and re-install the cotter pin.
Test the drag link ball caps for looseness by turning the steering wheel free play [wheels on ground]. Put your finger between the cap and the steering arm. If there is 'slop' [more than 1\32 inch], remove cap and grind flat face. Re-install cap and re-check for clearance [less than 1\32 inch]. If OK, disassemble, grease with moly lube, tighten bolts and jamb nuts, insert cotter pins. Test for binding (lock to lock) with wheels off the ground.
If drag link binds, loosen bolts slightly, tighten jamb nuts, and insert new cotter pins. Check for binding again. Repeat drag link cap check on the right end steering link.
Check and oil the tie rod ends. If more than 1\32 inch clearance, replace pins and bushings [See Ford 'T' Service Manual for procedures]. Rebuild kits are available from the 'T' parts supply houses.
Check the radius rod 'wishbone' ball and cap. If less than 1\64 inch play side-to-side when turning the steering wheel [front wheels on ground], grease wishbone ball cap, tighten and \or replace studs, spring, and nuts. The wishbone ball must be tight in the socket with no side-to-side play.
Safety wire both studs to each other. Do not use cotter pins. Ball joint studs may work loose and unscrew.
Remove and inspect the front wheel bearings and grease seals. Clean bearings in solvent ['paint thinner', not lacquer thinner]. Blow dry with air and then wash in solvent, again. If rollers are pitted, replace bearings and cups [races].
Grease bearings using moly wheel bearing grease. Install inner wheel bearing and seal. Install wheel on spindle shaft and screw on outer wheel bearing. The right spindle axle nut and bearing should be a left-hand [counterclockwise] thread. The left side is a right-hand thread. Tighten until snug and back off until light bearing play exists. Install washer and jamb nut. Tighten jamb nut to line up cotter pin slots. Bearing play should be just snug with out binding. Turn wheel [off ground]. If it stops abruptly, loosen jamb nut, loosen bearing nut _ turn, re-tighten jamb nut. If the wheel turns freely, adjustment is OK.
Lastly, test the spindle and bushings [king pins] for end [up and down] play and for vertical plane play.
In the vertical plane check [wheels off ground], grab the top and bottom of the tire and wiggle in and out. If the outer rim moves in and out more than one inch, look at spindle bushings and wood spokes [spoke looseness checks in 'wheels' section]. If in and out movement at spindle [king pin] bushing is more than 1\64 inch [0.015"] the spindle pin bushings are very loose and should be replaced.
Next, test the bushing end play [up and down movement in the vertical plane]. The end play clearance should be zero. Test by placing a tire iron under the tire [wheels off the ground]. If end play clearance is greater than 0 [like 0.005" or 0.010", 0.015" is 1\64 inch], remove cotter pin, loosen jamb nut, tighten spindle bolt ¼ turn, re-tighten jamb nut, and re-test for end play.
The bottom portion of the axle has a thread for the spindle bolt. If it's stripped, tighten jamb nut to take up end play. The Ford 'T' Service Manual specifies tightening the spindle bolt until 'resistance' to turning exists.
To avoid wheel wobble at low speed, tighten spindle bolt to just zero end play, as outlined above. If left tight [resistance] steering will be hard and the car will steer you and you will be constantly correcting as you travel down the road.
Oil the oil caps at top of spindle bolt with motor oil. If oil drips to ground out of bottom bushing, oil holes are open. If not, disassemble spindle bushing bolt, clean oil holes and re-assemble. Test for end play, align spindle jamb nut, and install cotter pin.
Test for camber, caster, and toe-in ['gather']. Make a 'plumb bob' with a string and a nut tied to one end. Measure camber by holding the string at the top outer surface of tire. Move forward until string clears the hub cap. The horizontal measurement to tire surface at bottom is three inches [specified in Ford 'T' Service Manual].
Test the caster [pitch] by holding a carpenter square perpendicular to the floor and touching the front surface of bottom spindle\axle area. Measure the distance from the square to upper edge of spindle\axle area. This measurement should be the specified ¼ inch on both spindles.
Measure the 'gather' [toe-in] by holding a tape measure the inside front rim edge about halfway up from the ground. Measure distance to same spot on other rim. Move the tape measure to the inside rear rim edge. The 'toe-in' should be around 3\16 - ¼ inch. For example, if the front measures 53 ½ inches and the back is 53 ¾ inches, the toe-in is ¼ inch.
Many times, the toe-in measurement will be ½ inch toe-in or up to ½ inch toe-out! Needles to say, the car will wander all over if the above measurements are incorrect.
Review the Ford 'T' Service Manual for detailed procedures to measure camber, caster, and toe [gather]. Toe is adjustable.
In 1998, the wheels with metal outer rims may be up to 78 years old! Wood felloe and wood outer rim wheels may be 88 years old!
That's old! If the spokes are loose in any way, consider having them re-spoked by a professional wheelwright advertised in the hobby magazines.
The wheel(s) may be slightly out of true in the vertical plane. A _ inch out of true wobble is OK; but if greater, consider re-spoking the wheel.
You have read about wheels folding up on curves and causing accidents. It's worth the price to your family, friends, and relates, in-laws and outlaws to make safety a top issue!
Do not try shimming, epoxy, or resin to 'tighten' up the spokes. The heat from the rear brakes may melt the glue to honey, run out all over the brake, and then collapse!
REAR AXLE, DRIVE SHAFT AND BRAKE CHECKS
Test the drive shaft front bushing by removing the drive shaft housing plugs. Insert a small screwdriver and push up. If it pushes up 1\64 inch [0.015 inches] the clearance is barely acceptable the clearance spec for this bushing is 0.002 - 0.006 inches. If the clearance is over 1\64 inches, it's very loose! This measurement excess may indicate other rear axle wear and excess end play.
With a screwdriver, move the pin fore and aft to check drive shaft end play. If over 1\64 inches [0.015"], it's too loose. Although loose, one can drive the car. Consider re-building the drive shaft assembly. Check the Ford 'T' Service Manual for overhaul procedures.
If the drive shaft\U-joint pin is loose, support the bottom of pin with a _ punch and blocks [hardwood on cement] to the floor. Peen the top of pin with a ¼ inch punch and a two-pound hammer. Turn drive shaft 180, and peen the other end. The pin is quite soft.
Grease the drive shaft bushing cup with moly grease, and turn it in ½ turn for every trip. The front drive shaft bushing without grease is a 'high wear' item on a 'T'!
Test the rear axle up and down play with wheels off the ground. Any play up and down up to 0.005 inches is OK, Test the wheels with a tire iron on the bottom side of the tire using the iron as a lever. Lift it up and down. If it's over 0.005 inches, it's loose! The wear is usually in the bearing axle sleeve upper outside edge [Part #2509].
To remove wheel hubs, jack up one side. Install a 'knock-out' on opposite axle shaft. Tighten knock-out. Srike heavy blows on end of knock-out with a 'sledge' hammer. If really tight, re-check knock-out. If, after five hard blows, it is not loose, install a 'wheel puller' to remove hub. Most wheel hubs fall off or come loose with a couple of firm blows.
Remove the bearing [two small screwdrivers] and feel the ridge wear in the axle sleeve. Remove the race [with puller from 'T' supply houses]. Install inner axle seals and new 'heat-treated' sleeves. ['T' supply houses have these parts].
Measure the rear axle bearing diameter with a micrometer. The standard diameter size of the roller bearing is 0.500 inches. If it measures 0.495 or more its OK. If it less than 0.495 inches, replace the bearing.
I personally prefer a bearing 0.002 to 0.003 inches under 0.500 inches.
The looser, the faster the car will go up to an acceptable limit!
While the bearing is out, check the axle end play. If over 1\32 inch [0.031"], it's excessive. If left this way, the axle may shift in and out causing the drum to rub the brake lining edges. It may squeal! Check the Ford 'T' Service Manual for correct set up when re-building the rear axle assembly.
Install inner grease seals [Part #2511] and the bearing sleeves [there is a left and right sleeve; grease holes must line up!].
Grease the rear axle bearing with heavy duty wheel bearing grease or moly grease. Install bearings. Tap bearings in lightly and turn cage back and forth. With old bearings, they will slip in easily. With new, reproduction bearings, a moderate tap is OK.
When all the way in, the bearings will rotate easily, because the axle is usually worn from 0.003 to 0.005 inches on the bearing surface area. If in doubt about the above, review the Ford 'T' Service Manual for procedures.
Check the brake shoe lining. The small 9-inch brakes with lining is inadequate for hill country, but may be OK for flat country [a personal opinion]. You may want to consider 'rocky mountain' brakes.
The 11-inch brakes ['26'27 'T'] is much better and adequate for mountain driving. 'Fade' may still be a problem.
Recently , I had my 11-inch brakes relined with a 'molded Kevlar' lining used in industrial brake applications. The brand name is Redco Heavy Duty Woven Lining. This Kevlar lining will withstand higher temperatures before fade than Model T brake lining. If it fades, the brakes will recover faster upon cooling.
After 100 miles, the brakes seated and stopping power is superb with minimum fade.
In either case, have the lining professionally drilled and riveted with brake machinery. Don't skimp and do it 'by hand'! It will work loose! There goes your safety factor!
Oil brake arm cam lever bushings. Put a thin film of moly grease on the cam surface [top and bottom]. Install lining. Disconnect brake rods.
Prepare rear axles. Remove axle burrs and shine taper surfaces with 80 grit-type sand paper. Peen the outer end of the axle keyway. Insert the axle key by tapping into the burr. You don't want this to move when installing the wheel hub. Clean axle threads with a _ x 13 [National Fine] die. Tap nut to clean thread.
Oil axle surface, axle thread, and nut for a better torque.
Slip on hub drum. Rotate wheel. If you hear a metal scraping, it may be the brake lining edge rubbing the drum. Remove hub and install an axle shim [Part #2505 SH] coated with oil. Recheck for scraping sound.
The oiled axle shaft surfaces will provide a better seating of the hub on the axle. Install the nut, and snug lightly [for now]. Re-install brake rods, oil clevis pins, and install cotter pins.
Adjust the brakes for equal drag. Pull the emergency brake handle to the vertical position. Test for equal drag on both wheels.
Move brake lever to neutral with no brake. Test for free-wheeling at rear wheels. The trick is to have the wheels free in neutral with no brake drag, then pull lever to vertical. The wheels should have a heavy equal drag to almost locked up with brake lever in vertical position.
Make sure emergency brake lever and locking pawl doesn't slip. If it does, replace it [pawl].
In my experience, the rear brakes are, quite often, adjusted too tight. If tight, the brake applies the instant you pull the lever into neutral.
As new brake lining high spots wear in, re-adjust rear brakes for equal drag as outlined above.
If all the above adjusts out as discussed above, tighten brake rod clevis jam nuts and install cotter pins in clevis pins.
Torque the axle nuts to 75 foot pounds, align the cotter pin slots, and insert the cotter pin.
Fill the differential case to bottom edge of fill plug hole with 140 weight gear oil.
Now, for the big test! If all the above has been performed with good repair practice and adjusted to specification, your car should start in 5-10 seconds and almost be ready to drive on tour! The order of start up and drive events are as follows:
Adjust mixture, engine off
Crank and start
Adjust mixture and spark advance
Test for rod knocks
Test transmission band adjustment
Drive car, test shifting
Drive car, test brakes
Drive car, test for 'wabble'
Test for overheating
Drive car on tour!
Turn on gas and adjust mixture rod to one turn open from seated position. Hook up battery.
With gas at half throttle and spark in full-retarded position, crank engine for five seconds. During crank, choke for up to two seconds.
On hand crank models, use the same throttle and retarded spark settings as previously discussed. With ignition off, pull crank through three times with full choke. Release choke.
Turn on ignition, leave spark retarded, and crank to start.
Upon start up, be prepared to choke slightly as the engine begins to rev up. If it's 'sputtering', open choke [no choke] to let it rev up more. Advance spark to half way on 'Ts' equipped with four coils and timer. To lean the mixture, turn mixture knob clockwise until the engine 'smooths out'.
Return to idle slowly. Adjust idle throttle screw and mixture rod to maintain good idle smoothness.
NOTE: In my experience, the mixture rod will be open around ¾ turns from seated position at ½ throttle. Idle mixture setting for a long idle usually requires about ¼ turn more rich [counter-clockwise] than at ½ throttle in neutral.
During warm up, rev engine to around 1200 RPM. Leave it at a steady RPM. Listen for knock(s).
Short [with a screwdriver], one spark plug at a time. That cylinder will drop in RPM. Simultaneously, listen for knock while plug is shorted. If the knock goes away while shorting out the cylinder, the rod is loose.
Perform the same test on remaining cylinders.
After a long warm up, perform the same rod knock test, again. If it still knocks, the rod(s) is\(are) very loose.
In addition, test for center main bearing knock by holding at _ throttle and spark advanced halfway. Short number two and three spark plug simultaneously. If the knock goes away, adjust the center main after you adjust the rods. If you have any doubt about knocks, review the MTFCA Engine Manual for procedures.
To test the transmission bands, set emergency brake and start engine. Warm up. With emergency brake set, push in low pedal gently. Listen for a changing transmission 'whine'. This is the beginning of low band engagement. This point should be around one two inches up from the floorboard surface.
Next, push in reverse pedal with emergency brake set. The pedal should travel about half-way (½) to the floorboard surface.
With new, or old transmission bands, start with the above suggested adjustments. The real test is on the road. The adjustments may seem on the 'loose' side to you. However, the loose adjustments will minimize premature failure due to excessive drag.
If the bands are too tight, they will already be partially engaged. They may work against each other, and the transmission may sound like it's binding up. Further the bands may burn and fail prematurely due to lack of oil [cooling].
Sometimes the clutch disks will not allow a neutral. To test for neutral while running with one wheel jacked up, pull brake lever back slowly to neutral. Note RPM change, if any. Then continue to pull increasing brake drag. Engine RPM should not change and transmission neutral is OK.
If engine slows down during this maneuver, clutch disks are hung up and\or oil is congealed on disks' surfaces. Try this brake on\off procedure for 10 minutes.
If it [neutral] still does not work, change oil again. Repeat above steps. If it still hangs up, remove, disassemble engine and transmission to repair clutch.
READY FOR ROAD TEST
Now the big plunge! You're ready for the road!
If you are not experienced, ask an experienced friend who regularly drives 'Ts' on tours to drive your car the first time.
Slowly, slowly, engage reverse pedal gently and back out of the driveway. Leave emergency brake in neutral position to hold clutch pedal in place, while backing up.
Push in low pedal to move forward. Leave emergency brake lever in neutral. Accelerate to 10 MPH in low, then let up on the throttle and low pedal.
Let the car coast. Then apply foot brakes, gently. No chatter during stop- Next accelerate to 10 MPH in low. With your foot still on low pedal let the brake lever into high gear position [all the way down]. At 10 MPH, let throttle off slightly and simultaneously let clutch [high gear] engage by slowly letting up low pedal.
Note how smooth the shift is! If it chatters, the clutch disks may be 'hanging up' on the inside of the transmission brake drum guides.
After 50 miles or so, change the crankcase oil, again. When bringing your car out of mothballs, the syrupy oil could cause the hangup and rough shift. New oil may minimize the rough shift.
You have been applying the emergency brake gently, noting pull. At 30 MPH in high gear, let up on throttle and pull emergency brake to lock the rear wheels [panic stop]. Be prepared for a pull to right or left.
If it pulls to right, adjust the left clevis pin one turn tighter and re-install cotter pin. Try panic stop again. If you cannot get equal pull, re-line emergency brakes as discussed in brake section.
Test for 'Wabble':
Proceed over chuck holes slowly [5 MPH]. If shimmy develops, re-check front end looseness and alignment checks, as outlined in the 'Front Axle' section.
Test the radiator. If it boils on a cool day during these pre-tour tests, consider a 'flat tube' radiator re-core or a new radiator. In a good radiator system, water pumps are unnecessary, even on hot days.
READY FOR TOUR
If all the above works as outlined above, you're now ready for a durable tour.
Before every tour:
_Fill radiator to ½ inch from full up
_ Check oil drip out of top petcock
_ Clean timer
_Fill tank with gas
_Turn front drive shaft bushing grease cup one turn.
_Start, warm up, and go on tour!
Hi Jason, welcome to the affliction. I suggest any good 10-30 as stated above. Do not use any oil with graphite in it. It will short out the mag. Are your plugs the 2 piece take apart type. If so you may just need to clean them and use them. They last almost forever. You will probably need to check all the wiring. I like to take each wire off, clean the nuts and contacts before I do a start up of a car that has sat a long time. Especically the coil box and timer wires. It saves a lot of aggrivation. When you are ready to start it I also suggest hooking a battery to the battery terminal of the coil box. 6 or 12 volt is OK. The coils do not care what it is. That way you can turn it over one cylinder at a time and here the coils buzz and also check spark at the plugs. Hand cranking on mag is best left till later. I also suggest to remove the mag wire that goes from the coil box down to the mag post on top of the trans cover, just behind the head. For no reason should any battery voltage ever be allowed to touch that wire or posts. It will demagnetize your mag and be a real pain to fix. So for someone new I always suggest removing it for the start up process and till you are more familiar with everything. Let us know what kind of carb you have and someone will give you pointers on rebuilding it. Main thing is to get the fuel system very clean. Some photos would be nice, as we are a group of model T addicts and need a fix every now and then. Good luck with the car and glad to see a grandson showing interest in grandpas car. That's how I started over 30 years ago. And remember, the Forum is always open and someone is always here.
Wow thanks everyone for the replys i didn't think i would get much help so fast!
Before we get too ahead of the game im going to get pictures of every bit of the car. Carb, engine, gas tank etc.. Then we can setup a list at which things i should start with. The T is in great shape and was restored some 20-25 years ago. Its in show room shape without any rust in sight besides on the engine block. The engine turns over fine and the handbrake works like it should.
Now as far as i know it doesnt have a battery and or starter only a crank start. The only thing that seems to be missing is the choke by the left of the rad. Theres just nothing there and the choke inside the cab isnt hooked up. Other than that the car is totally original and in great shape. I want to do eveything right so that i can take my grandfather out in it anytime and have no major problems.
I think tomorrow i will go get some good pictures of the car with my brother. No crappy cell phone pics but good real camera pictures.
Again thanks guys i really appreciate the help and cant wait to drive the T!
.. and get a lubrication chart from one of the T vendors, frame it and hang it in the garage where you're working on the T. I have a 13 piece U joint wired together to remind me to GO BY the lubrication chart!
Is the 13 piece U-joint a special aftermarket accessory?
Get you a Model T Ford service manual. They are available on this website and also from the vendors.
After reading all of the information from the guys on the forum and after getting your T going pretty well always remember its a 100 years old car which is pretty basic and simple compared to todays cars and technology.
Its fun to drive and maintain.
Drive it and be safe! It wont stop like your modern vehicle will.
Yes, photos, we must see this car. Congrats and welcome, and good luck. Can't wait to see it and hear a running report. If you are a car guy, you can learn the ways of the model T. It is so fun. Just wait till you drive it. Study up or get a T friend to teach you how to drive it of course.
To bad we are not in the same Vancouver, I'd be right over.
Jason, when you get your pictures, be sure to make a copy of them and resize the copies to under 194K before you try to post them to the forum. Don't resize your originals, keep them at your default camera resolution.
What Mark said. When I have a high-resolution photo I want to reduce to put on the forum, I make a copy with "-b" appended to the name, then reduce the copy. I know immediately which is the original and which is the copy.
hey guys just got the pictures. re sizing them now then i will post them up.
good news is i looked in the gas tank and there is no rust in sight. bad news is theres still gas in it from some 10 odd years and i am pretty sure my grandfather never turned the gas off so the carb is most likely clogged up. no biggie though there was only a little gas in the bottom.
ok here we go. i have a bunch so bare with me.
and the last one. sorry for so many posts i wasn't sure it would show up with more than two pics a post.
Whoa, that is one beautiful T, I love the color, you're going to have a lot of fun with that one!
You may get some comments and advice on what is original and what isn't, it's all intended as supportive information to make a great car even better and more original.
Welcome to the T experience from a fellow newbie!
Thanks i cant wait to take my grandfather for a drive in it!
As far as i know it was restored for a movie it was in and then it was in a museum for awhile until that closed and my grandfather bought it. So as far as whats not original or not we dont really know but it was apperently all original. We dont really care if it is or not anyway we just like the T as is haha.
One thing you will notice is the rad is in bad shape. Thats what that white box was in the back a brand new core.
That's a spiffy car, Jason, and it appears to have most of the correct '14 parts on it. I like the "Made in Canada" intake manifold.
Drive it like you stole it!
Jason,Nice car. Is it Canadian? Bud.
Haha i just noticed that! Im not sure if its canadian or not. My grandfather gets back tomorrow so i will ask him.
Sure is Canadian - all four doors open ! Nice car Jason ! Here's ours - same car just different color and our driver's door doesn't open.
Thats a nice T! ^^^
is that how you can tell the difference if all doors open? All doors do open on ours.
The US built cars didn't have the drivers door open; just the outline of the door ribbing was embossed on the side panel. From the outside view of Steve's 14 there is NO hinge on the front of the door. Ditto inside; no latch.
Ahhh i see! Thats pretty cool.
And idea what carb i have?
Also how do the wheels look? My dad wants to get new ones.
Once i know what parts i need i want to order them from lang's along with a fsm.
Jason you are one LUCKY man!
Your grandfather already loves your new found "affliction".
I've seen Steve's 14 and it's gorgeous. You are gonna love your car but beware... they tend to "multiply".
Haha i feel pretty lucky just to get to work on it at my age. My grandfather doesnt have many people as interested in it as me so i know hes excited for me to get it running so we can go boot around in in. After all the car is 100 years old now.
I hope i dont end up with another one too soon i already have a 91 toyota mr2 turbo and a 91 lifted 4runner that eat up all my money haha. Me an my brothers also have a 1930 model AA dually pickup that is in need of work. But i can see these old T's getting addicting. For now though i will start with getting this one running right.
One of the first things you should do is put castle nuts and safety wire on your wishbone to crankcase connection. Those two studs coming out of the crank case should be wired together.
Roger that i will add that to the list of things to do!
Anybody have any idea of what carb i have?
Jason -- It looks to me like a Kingston L, used in 1915. Go to the Encyclopedia on the MTFCA home page, and click on Carburetors, then 1915.
Jason, I agree with Mike.
The carb is a Kingston L
I have same one on my 15 runabout
Hi Jason, Very cool car and welcome to the T world. I'm new to T's as well and having a great time getting mine running. Just got it running last weekend, Yes! I see you are in the Vancouver area, I'm in Surrey. Have you been in touch with the Totem Model A & T club? They meet at the Bby Heritage Village on the 4th Monday of the month at 7:30pm.(except this month, its at the Tucker Tin Ranch) For parts I order from George Moir Antique Auto Parts Ltd. They are in Alberta and are very fast filling orders and shipping. Last order I did, I called them Saturday and parts arrived at my door Thursday. Their number is 780-963-7334. Good luck and have a great time with your Model T and your Grandad, precious time.
Wow Jason... Wow! That car is perfect, and will be running in no time.
Here is my '14 Canadian, but the body is a '13 with 4 doors. Ignore the windshield and a few other bits... WIP.
I acquired my "barn find" 1917 Model T Ford in September of 2009. I live in New Hampshire and do antique auto appraisals and was asked to appraise this T along with a 1925 Model T Touring and a 1936 Packard 120 for an estate settlement. It was love at first site and I knew that I had to own it. My T had not been started in at least a dozen years, so when I got it home I replaced the gas tank, sediment bowl and fuel line, rebuilt the carburetor, changed the oil, put in new coolant and charged the battery. That was all I needed to get my T running and start my new life in the wonderful world of Ford Model Ts. As far as I can tell there is no down side to this new life, although many of us T owners are afflicted by a very strong desire to acquire more Model Ts. Over the years I have steadily tried to make my Ford as roadworthy as possible. The next spring, after learning how to start and drive a Model T, I drove it over to my very good friend Dick Welch (a Model T expert) and had Dick check it out. At this same time I replaced all the tires, tubes and rim flaps, anyone who has ever replaced four tires, tubes and flaps on clincher rims can tell you this no easy task. Dick checked the engine, transmission front axle, rear axles, bearings and everything in between. He replaced the worn planetary transmission bands with new Kevlar bands and added Rocky Mountain Brakes for safety. This past summer I had Dick rebuilt the engine and transmission. Now all I have left to do is the drive shaft and rear end, which is my goal for this year. These later repairs were for my own peace of mind, as the Ford has always been a strong running automobile right from the start.
Speaking of from the start, this would be a good a place to begin. My Model T Ford is almost all stock just like it came from the factory in 1917, however a previous owner had added a starter. I still like to crank start it whenever possible. Here are the simple procedures for crank starting a Model T when the engine is cold.
1. Make sure the parking brake is fully set, all the way back (if the engine starts without the park brake fully on an embarrassing thing usually happens, the Model T runs over the person doing the cranking).
2. Make sure the fuel petcock valve under the gas tank (or under the hood if you have it beside the carburetor) is turned 'ON' and you have at least a half tank of gas. It is presumed that you have already checked the oil and coolant levels already. If not this is how you check the oil level: there are two petcocks on the passenger side of the hog’s head (transmission bottom housing) open the top petcock and if oil does not run out add oil until it does, do not close petcock until oil stops coming. The coolant level is visually checked by removing the radiator cap.
3. Make sure the Ignition switch is set to 'OFF'.
4. Set the spark retard (left) lever under the steering wheel to full retard, all the way up.
5. Set the throttle (right) lever to give the engine some gas, 4 to 6 notches down.
6. Adjust the carburetor mixture control on the dash for cold starting, about a half turn counter clock wise.
7. Go around to the front of the car and with your left hand, pull the choke wire, while you grab the crank with your right hand, then shove the crank handle in towards the engine, making sure that the handle catches on the pin in the crankshaft, at about the 8 o'clock position, and pull up on the crank handle, lifting it up to the 12 o'clock position. Note: when you grab the crank with your right hand, make sure to place your thumb on the same side of the handle as all the rest of your fingers. That way, if the engine kicks back (back fires) while cranking, it will tend to throw your hand off the crank handle instead of breaking your thumb, wrist or arm. Crank the engine three or four times. This gets the intake manifold and cylinders primed with gas vapors.
8. Go back and turn the ignition switch to “Bat” This means that the coils will receive current from the battery. Your other choice would be 'Mag' or magneto, Ford Owner’s Manual recommends “Mag”. The fact of the matter is that it is hard to spin a cold engine fast enough to generate enough magneto voltage to the coils and then to the sparkplugs for starting.
9. Back out front give a nice quick smooth pull on the crank handle, lifting it up to the 12 o'clock position. In a perfect world, the engine will start right up; if not just keep repeating steps 7 & 8, only you should not need to re-choke.
10. Almost done, once the engine starts, run back to the driver's side, reach in and while advancing the spark, slowly move the throttle back to idle.
11. Wait for the engine to warm up before attempting to drive your Model T or it will stall.
Uh-oh. Warren said crank with the right hand. Let the thread drift and the argument begin (again). Prime (choke) with the right, crank with the left.
I'm in the "crank with the right hand" club...
I'm on the fence with the crank from 6 o'clock to 12 vs 9 o'clock to 12...
But in Africa...we do wa diddy diddy do.
Thank you Justin, for your support. I don't know about you, but I'm not talented enough to use my left hand and anyway you know what they say about left handed people (no offence meant nor intended). That sure is a good looking '14 Model T.
Speak up, Warren! We are the most persecuted minority in history.
What we don't have are broken arms from crank starting Model Ts.
I'm a "lefty" and have used my right hand to crank for over 45 years (used to crank my Model A occasionally) - I'm real careful of someone else's T, though !
Rick, Steve and all the other "lefties everywhere" my Dad was a lefty and I meant what I said about "no offence meant nor intended". I had the great pleasure of working at the Ted Williams Baseball Camp in Lakeville, Mass. so I got to know Ted and play pick-up baseball with him and he batted lefty, enough said about my respect for left handed people.
For what its worth, my late grand dad taught me to crank with the right hand. Now, 20 years on, even trying to use the left seems unnatural to me.
I was told, if it back fires, it will tend to open up your fingers and come out of your hand... I have had backfires before, and that's what has happened. I have not had the handle swing back and smack the back of my hand like the pics of a fellow forum member did. That looked very painful. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've done it this way on every T I've started.
What was impressed upon me when I was taught was, Don't go past 12 o'clock as.... if using your right hand, your hand now is over the handle and if it backfires, your fingers can't give... so your wrist will.
I makes me shiver when I think back to some guys cranking full revolutions on a T... I was waiting for the snap...
So Steve, see what you did! Haha
Thanks Warren, she's purring again nicely after a 9 month hiatus..
I happen to be right-handed, but that's irrelevant when it comes to cranking a car. It's not a fine motor skill like handwriting or pitching. There's no dexterity needed for just pulling up a handle. Either hand will do, so I use the safer one.
In the immoral words of Frank Barone (all in the family) "Holy Crap!" - that's one nice model T.
If it were not for the 10 commandments of Model T enthusiasts I would "Lust after" yours.
You are in the right place to get info - the guys will give you lots of guidance and help when you run into a problem you don't know how to fix.
Don't let the lists of 2-do things overwhelm you -Keep it simple and do one or two things at a time.
You will need to learn to enjoy the controversial conversations like which hand for cranking, water pumps, oil, etc. but remember T's are fun -
Have fun and enjoy.
I use to be able to write backwards with my left and forward with my right at the same time! My car, most of the time it's prime with my right crank with my left, sometimes not. If it's not my car, for sure, prime right crank left. As the guy says, just saying!
Very nice T. Like the color (the green one, red one and black one too).
MarkG aka Redmodelt
Thanks guys for the info. If we could avoid a debate about which hand to crank with that would be nice haha. I just dont want to fill this page up with it.
As far as progress im going to talk with my grandfather this weekend and try and order a service manual, plugs, and carb rebuild kit. Then while i wait for that im going to drain the gas tank and blow out the old 10+ year old gas. Then put the new rad core in. Hope to have it running by mid august.
Yes, very nice car. You mention replacing the plugs. From your picture it appears that you have Champion A-25 plugs. They are a decent plug and may respond well to a good cleaning and setting the gap to .030"
There are many Model T drivers using 50 to 80 year old plugs with excellent results.
Good luck with your project. Bill
Hey ya im sure the plugs are ok but id rather get new ones that arent rusted. Its not really that expensive of a part so i dont mind replacing it.
I also found out that our T was part of the cloverdale car museum and my grandfather bought it when it closed down sometime around 1990. I dont think the car has been drivin much since the mid to late 90's.
This wednesday we are going to a local parts place to see what they have and if we cant get what we need we are going to order from the place in alberta. Sofar the list is.. New plugs, carb rebuild kit, oil, hand choke, rocky mountain brakes, and a new brass tire valve cover.
Im going to drain the tank and blow the lines out too on wednesday. Any tips on cleaning the tank out after i drain the gas? I could spray a bunch of brake clean in but its pretty hard to get in there. Maybe some solvent would do the trick?
Hey guys im back its been awhile. Finally got to the point where i attempted to starts it.
- Cleaned the gas tank and fuel line which gas flows freely now.
-Cleaned the carb and set the float which i hope i did right.
-changed the oil
-got a new rad
-cleaned the commentator and cleaned up all the ignition connections
- new 94 octane no ethanol fuel
- and new autolite plugs gapped to .30 which im not happy with the quality so we are going to buy the expensive "X" plugs
Now we are trying to start it on mag because we dont have a battery. Will that make it much harder to start? We could go buy a 6 volt battery if so.
I was also thinking of roll starting it if thats possible with these trannys? I push start many standards and figured this would give the me the best chance to get a strong enough spark to start it.
While a T in good working order can be hand cranked on magneto, for an unknown condition car (does the magneto work properly, is the engine timed properly, are the coils properly adjusted etc.)
I would recommend purchasing a small [as in motorcycle or one of those batteries the kids toy car that they can ride in uses or the alarm system uses] 6 volt sealed battery with a second choice of a small 12 volt sealed battery and my third choice would be a non-sealed 6 volt followed by a non-sealed 12 volt. With either of those you can turn the engine over and easily here if all 4 cylinders are sparking (you will hear the coil for that cylinder buzzing). Don't just let the coil buzz -- especially on 12 volts as it can harm the coil.
Note even if the coils are not properly adjusted to run on the magneto they often can give acceptable performance on battery.
I did not read all of the thread -- but if you do not know how to drive it -- push starting it could lead to some major issues -- i.e. what if it takes off and you don't get it stopped or under control quickly? If you know how to drive it, I would try hand crank on battery and if it didn't fire at all there is no need to tow it or push it. Rather than push it, I would pull it with a vehicle because I'm old and it is hot and humid here. At about 10 mph put it in high gear and it should turn over and start (of course it should turn over and start with the hand crank if all is well).
This is a good time to have someone with a little experience and knowledge to help you. Offer them a beverage of choice and a free ride/drive and they should show up. [Don't forget insurance, tags etc. A long time ago it was not much of an issue. On private property it still shouldn't be an issue. But with today's legal system -- even if the person was texting, driving in the wrong lane, and it was all their fault that they hit you -- you would be in trouble for not being properly registered etc. ]
From memory -- there is a very active club in the Vancouver area. Have you asked anyone to help you get it started?
Good luck and great looking car!
Hap l9l5 cutoff
Yeah i just checked for spark by grounding the plug bodies to the head and im getting no spark. At this point im cleaning all the ignition terminals and where the coil boxes attach in there box. Also going to check the space between the rocker things on the coils. Sorry for lack of knowing what they are actually called haha.
Then we are going to go get a 6 volt sealed battery and see what happens.
If this doesnt work then im going to try and get ahold of some local guys who can help out. Im having fun though trying ti figure this thing out.
A 12v battery works just as fine on a 1915 w/o other electrical components - actually even better than 6v since 12v can handle higher rpm:s than 6v if you can't get the magneto to work..
I'll be the odd man out here. Mine gets synthetic 10-W-30. There is no oil filter, and I want the slipperiest oil that I can get. Gas? anything that will burn. The T was designed before tetraethyl lead was added to gas, so unleaded should be no problem. The lowest octane that you can find is super-premium to the T.
Yeah this has no starter. The only electrical thing is a little spot light haha
I just found a little thing on the internet explaining how to check the points so i just adjusted the gaps with feeler gauges which were all out of wack. Going to put the coils back in with all the terminals cleaned then go get a battery.
I think we will stick to 6v if we can just to keep it correct but if we cant find one then thats good to know we can use a 12v
As far as gas goes i was told ethanol is bad for these engines so the only gas we have here with no ethanol is chevron 94. I know how octane works and id imagine with an engine with such low compression that we would want the lowest octane possible which is 87 here but that has 10% ethanol so cant really win haha. Will probly have to advance my timing a little more than normal because of the slow burn of 94.
Anyway if we cant get it running today then im going to get a local who knows these cars better than i and get it going.
6v is just as incorrect as 12v since the cars were delivered w/o battery and Ford adviced against using a battery - but if the magneto is weak your easiest way to get it running is with a battery. The only component that may suffer from alcohol in the fuel is the carb float if it's made out of cork. I have a brass float and have driven mine 100 miles on E85 alcohol without problems - I just screwed out the main jet adjustment needle a bit.
Do all of the below with the parking brake lever all the way back and a chock in front of the wheel. Sometimes it works easier if you jack up one rear wheel. If you have never had the car running since you got it the magneto might not be working. If it is not, no attempt to push or crank will start the car. If it's a stock 14 there would be no starter, however some people have converted it to a starter. There should be two positions on the ignition switch. One is for batt and the other is for mag. It is very important that you NOT connect the battery to the magneto or it could damage the magneto. There should be a place to connect a battery and that's where it should be connected. Someone with a 14 should be able to point out where that connection is so that you WON,T accidently get the magneto connected to the battery. You can use a small 6 volt battery to run the coils. In fact I would suggest that you connect one up and check to see if the coils will buzz as you turn the crank,(slowly at first with the plugs laying on the head. as the commutator makes connection to each coil in its proper turn, that coil should buzz firing order is 1,2,4,3. If all coils buzz and you get a spark, then you are ready to start. Turn off the ignition switch Put the plugs back in and with the spark lever all the way up. Pull the choke. Pull up on the crank a couple of times. Then, turn on the ignition switch to battery and pull up again on the crank using your LEFT hand. Never push down on the crank when the ignition switch is on! If you are lucky, the engine will start right up.
If the car won't start up, then remove the chock and get in. Put the parking brake forward and your left foot on the pedal half way down. Have someone push you by hand and get it going as fast as it can be pushed. Turn on the ignition to battery and let the clutch out into high. As soon as it starts pull the spark lever down about half way. After the engine is running, turn the switch to magneto. If the magneto is good it will keep running. It might even speed up on magneto.
In my 15, I use a small 12V battery hidden under the passenger side of the back seat. It provides enough power to run the coils if the mag is weak. Also, with a battery, you can pull all the plugs, and lay them on the head (still hooked to the plug wire) and hand crank (with the switch on BAT) to each coil and hear it buzz and see if the spark is traveling all the way to the ends of the plugs. You need to make sure you have spark and fuel before you start handcranking or even towing to start.
It is wired up already for a battery to go under the back seat so somebody had used a battery before us.
Why would there be a battery setting other than mag on the switch if it wasnt ment to have a battery?
I got the points in spec best i could and cleaned alot of wire connections and grounds but didnt get done today to test for spark again. I have a feeling the mag is dead or really week. I guess they can just die over time?
Anyway i do crank with my left had which seems to work good.
If the mag is dead then where should i start with that? I have an engine crane and tools to remove the engine but what actually has to be done to the mag if its dead?
Oh another thing. My kingston L has a brass or metal of some sort float so i should be ok with ethanol then? I dont see why it could hurt anything else in the fuel system.
"Why would there be a battery setting...?" Exactly correct. Ford didn't provide a battery with the car, and liked to pretend that it wasn't needed. But he was realistic enough to realize that a magneto might not always be up to snuff, in which case a battery start might be useful. So he provided a way to use that "unnecessary" battery.
For info on charging magnets go to Google and type in MTFCA: magnet charge. You also want the MTFCA book on The Electrical System.
Hate to add fuel to the right hand / left hand issue but I always wondered how you were supposed to crank and pull the choke lever at the same time when you cranked left handed. I am sure some will say you crank and choke with the switch off so using the right hand to crank does not pose a backfire issue but unless you live in a warm climate there are times when choking and cranking need to be done with the switch on to get started.
Yeah i just started reading up on charging the mag. Seems like i need atleast 40 amps to charge it. I think i will find a local T owner who can help charge the mag. Till then im going to get a battery and get it running on that first.
And yeah i see how cranking with your left hand and choking the engine could be a pain. But i think it wont be an issue with it primed right. If so i will rig up a way to keep the choke pulled while i crank.
The T engine is different from modern engines in many ways, one of them is that it never starts on full choke, so I always prime the engine first with two or three priming cranks with the right hand while pulling the choke fully closed with my left. Then, if the settings are right, all it takes to start it is a couple of cranks with my left hand. Then when it starts, it runs a bit rough with the timing retarded for cranking safety - you have to reach the steering column to advance the spark and reduce the gas as soon as it catches on.
Granted, this was not in cold weather, but here's how a T should start with the crank:
Very easy. You prime using the right hand on the choke but the ignition is off. Pull up on the crank about 2 times and then take a complete spin of the crank. After it is primed you turn on the switch and pull up with the left hand without choking. A well tuned engine will start right up that way. The reason for pulling up only and using the left hand when the ignition is on is this: you need to get the hand and wrist out of the way of the crank very quickly in case it should "kick". Pushing down is the worst thing to do with the switch on and next worst is to have your thumb around the crank. The thumb should be on the same side as the fingers. Another advantage of using the left hand is that you are closer to the spark lever and facing it when the engine starts. The quicker you can advance the spark, the more likely the engine will continue to run after you start it. It works somewhat like the left handed batter has an advantage in reaching first base.
Roger, I'm sorry, but I must disagree with your statement that a T engine "never starts on full choke". On my speedster, if it hasn't been started in a few days or longer, I start it (crank only) with full choke. I have the choke pull routed to the dash, and a small wood block to hold it fully closed while I crank. My process is:
1. Pull the choke and hold it with the wood block.
2. Make sure the spark lever is all the way up.
3. Open the throttle about an inch.
4. Switch the ignition on.
5. Pull up on the crank until it starts; never takes more than five or six pulls.
6. Walk back to the driver side, remove the wood block from the choke pull, allowing the choke to open.
7. Advance the spark lever about a third of the way down.
8. Close the throttle to an idle.
If she's been run previously that day, I never choke. Almost always starts on one or two pulls. Never floods.
It's possible that my process works well for me, but may not work for others, because I have a dizzy, a fuel pump, and a Stromberg RF carb. Your statement may be correct for a mostly stock system, so no offense intended. Just telling you my experience with my system.
My wife shot a video of a start-up and drive this past Easter. Here's a link to the video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKRDSlDePIc
Ok i understand how to start it now. Ive watched alot of videos on starting and driving a T. I think im hooked haha
Anyway i did test for spark on mag With all the plugs out to make it easy to spin the engine over faster. I grounded the number one plug to the head and turned the lights out to watch for spark. I got nothing. Had my brother listen to the coils too while i cranked it and they didnt make a sound.
So that led me to cleaning every electrical connection and the idea that the mag was dead.
So my next question is what battery should i buy? Some people say 6 volt some say 12 and what about sealed or vented. I went all around town trying to find a sealed 6v and after 3 stores saying they didnt have them we got ahold of interstate batteries and they can get one.
And its my understanding that i can drive it and battery too but if the battery dies then im stuck haha. So if so would a 12v be better? I want to get the mag working but for now and the last few good weeks of weather it would be nice to take it out.
Good looking '14 touring Jason. You're gonna have a lot of fun with that chick magnet. Turn the horn rightside up and you can get some 'free' starts. All seriousness aside; I use real little batteries - like 2"X 3"X4" under the front seat but they're just to energize the coils because my magneto puts out 30 volts. 6 volt wet cell batteries may be hard to find except in farm supply stores. A T will run on battery just as good on 6V or 12V. You say your touring was cabled for a battery under the rear seat? The cable gauge will dictate whether you buy a 6V or 12V. Using a voltmeter, do you get fire to the battery terminal on the firewall? Check that copper strip in the coil box under the 4 coils: thats where the coils get their fire. Keep us posted. This is a riveting thread
Jason, the mag still may be good. Its very hard to see the one spark you will get on mag and impossible to hear the coil buzz. On battery the coil and plug will continually spark as long as the roller in the timer is making contact. My opinion is that 12 volt or 6 volt does not matter. Its easier to find a 12 volt battery than a six. All you need is a very small lawn mower battery since you have no starter. Make sure you hook it to the correct post of the coil box. I would even suggest to remove the wire from the magneto terminal on top of the hogs head till you get it running. From the looks of your car, I would almost bet good money your mag is OK. Get it running on battery and then check the mag... Good luck ...
If there's agriculture around Vancouver you should have a farm supply store. They will have six volt batteries.
With a battery installed try your spark plug test like this: Attach one end of a wire with an alligator clip to ground. With the ignition switched on, touch the other end of the wire to each terminal on the timer (commutator). If that makes the plugs spark, your problem is in the timer. The timer's function is to provide a path for the primary current to go to ground. It's simply a switch that turns on each spark plug in turn. With this test you're the timer, providing a path to ground with that little wire.
Just for reference, here's a diagram for your car.
If your trying to hand crank on mag you need maybe 3 to 5 notches of spark advance.Try it with your plugs laying on the head first?? Bud.
You're getting advice all over the board here, so I hesitate to even chime in, but I will.
The point gap is not NEARLY as important as some think. Yeah, it's nice if they are all the same, but the cushion spring tension is the key. There's no way to measure it without a coil tester. Adjusting the point gap will most likely ruin the cushion spring tension setting, if it was set right to begin with. To run correctly on mag, the cushion spring setting must be right. You can have the hottest mag in the world and if the cushion springs are not set right, it won't run worth a dang on mag. Adjusting the point gap changes the tension in the cushion spring. Good news is, it will probably still run on battery.
If running on battery, they will run on 12v better than on 6 volts. It has to do with ramp up time as the coil builds magnetic field. 6 volts will result in a more retarded timing than 12 volts. At low speeds, you won't notice the difference. You will at high speeds. Although someone is bound to disagree with me.
For cheap and quick troubleshooting, a 6 volt dry cell for flashlights will start the car and run many hours. Two wired in series.....even better. If you find your mag works, you can use them only for starting and they will last a year or more.
If you have a brass float in the carb, ethanol won't hurt a thing if you drive regularly. If you let it sit for months/years with ethanol fuel...no guarantees. If you have a cork float, do not use ethanol fuel unless you can find a light weight ethanol proof sealer to seal the float. Learned that the hard way on a 1940 Johnson outboard.
If you are starting by hand (Which you will be), use a multi viscosity oil. 10W-30 or even 5W-30. I use 5W-30 even in the Summers of South Georgia with no ill effects. It makes it MUCH easier to start, especially in Winter.
Get it running. Do a John Regan mag test (it will come up doing a search) . If your mag is OK, get someone to properly rebuild your coils and you will be a happy camper. Ron Patterson and Brent Mize are the big names. There are others as well. Me included.
6 volt batteries cost twice what a 12 volt battery costs, and don't work nearly as well.
I would buy a 12 volt lawn tractor or motorcycle battery, which ever you can get cheapest.
What ever you do, don't try to replace the coil points or adjust them yourself. If the coils in fact need to be worked on you should send them to either Ron Patterson or Brent Mize. Link here:
Great. I touched them because they where out and looked all out of wack.. Oh well they could use a rebuild anyway and we want this thing running perfect. Also have two spare coils i found under the back seat.
And ok its settled then i will buy a simple lawn mower 12v battery. Cant tell very wheel from that picture but it looks like the battery terminal is the bottom left terminal on the coil box? Im pretty sure mines wired up that way already. Guess just attach battery positive to that and ground tye battery to the frame?
Ok great i will run 87 after this tank of 94. 94 isnt cheap haha. I will just drain the tank before every winter it sits.
Im running some 10w30 in it which seems to be good. I can get a good crank going sofar.
I have a good feeling the mags dead but i hope its not. Like i said i had all the plugs out playing on the head, dark garage, two sets of eyes watching, and i spun the heck out of it to try and get the mag going. We got no spark or sound from the coil boxes. Since then i did pull the coil box out and found the connections of the coils and inside the box for them to be pretty bad. We cleaned every connection so i will see if that helps next time im there.
Jason,The mag is alternating current and the timer needs to be in the right place to catch the power pulse when cranking by hand.Bud.
The magneto may be kaput, or the timer may be your problem. When you get a battery installed, switch to BAT and do the test I outlined above. You can also do the Regan test for the magneto.