OT- Need a starter Chain for 1906-1909 2 Cylinder holsman engine

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT- Need a starter Chain for 1906-1909 2 Cylinder holsman engine
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 12:08 am:

Anyone know where I can get a starter chain for our 1906 Holsman. It has had an electric starter on it for years, I would like to go back to using the hand crank that came from the factory. Who sells obsolete roller chain? Just got my engine back from the Antique Auto Ranch Rick and company did an job on it thanks guys.

Thanks,
Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 12:45 am:

Chris, I'm sure there are more than two Holsmans around, but the only person that I know personally that has one is Michael Pawelek ( mpawelek@swbell.net ). He lives less than ten miles from me. Maybe he'd know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 03:13 am:

You might check with the Curved Dash Olds crowd. They use a couple chains that have to be custom made. It will be weeks before I can see any of the few people I know with one.
There is a Hemmings website for the CDO club. You may be able to find a contact for a chain maker through them. I do know that a friend of mine bought a couple starter chains for his French-front about ten years ago. The club's site; http://clubs.hemmings.com/cdoclub/?club=cdoclub

Also try Restoration Supply Company in Escondido CA. If they don't have it, I would bet that Vic knows where to call.
Good luck!
Love that car by the way.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages, ACT Australia on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 03:33 am:

There is a company in the UK that sells old style chains. They advertise in the old car magazines.

Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages, ACT Australia on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 03:44 am:

PS I can have a look thru some of my magazines if anybody needs their details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin in South Africa on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 05:19 am:

Chain dimension would help. Do you have a piece of the old one, or can you get the dimensions off of another chain?

If so, PM me and I will try to help. We get custom chains made up every so often.

Cheers
Justin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 09:12 am:

If it is a roller chain, you may be able to match it up to a motorcycle chain. These can be installed at any length using a master link. You just need the sprocket width and tooth spacing to match it to a chain size.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 09:26 am:

If it is a "Silent" chain, they are available from power transmission stores.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 10:59 am:

Chris, Wonderful looking highwheeler !

You need to know the distance from top of tooth to top of tooth ( pitch) and the thickness of the gear that it runs on. Old chain is usually worn out but NOS chain is out there, but you have to look. On our 1905 F ford we replaced the sprockets that were a non standard size with ANSI sized, so we could run new , easily obtained chain. Visually they look the same, but now I can get chain from any supply house. One reason we switched is because the sprockets were badly worn.

I am just now starting to look for chain for our 1909 norwalk auto-bug high wheeler. The sprockets on this are in excellent shape, so I will probably search out some original pitch chain.

You mention starter chain, so you may be looking for something entirely different. Perhaps pictures of what you need would be helpful. I do have access to a lot of old oddball small chain, so if we know exactly what you are looking for , perhaps I can help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 11:06 am:

Chris,

For my Curved Dash Olds I found some block style starter chain at the W.C. DuComb Company in Detroit. http://wcducomb.com/?p=5

As Tim suggests, you'll need to know the pitch, the width of the sprocket & the diameter of the roller. You can figure out the roller diameter by observing the radius at the base of the sprocket tooth. This radius will suggest the proper diameter of roller to fit it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 03:36 pm:

At work right now but I will get measurements tomorrow morning and post them up here. Thanks for the great comment on our old Holsman. She has been in our family for almost 50 years. Finally wore the motor out to the point it had 1/32 of an in play in the mains! Just got it back from the Antique Auto Ranch in Spokane after getting new rods and mains put i. Now fun is getting it back running again so we can wear it out again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 11:51 pm:

1906 catalog1906


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 11:56 pm:

1908 catalog1234567


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 12:00 am:

Thanks Jerry, I was so used to chains Ford used, I didn't realize there were so many different ones, and the roller does make a big difference.

Chris, if you cannot find it in these 1906 and 1908 catalog listings, I have lots more of the lighter bicycle type, and can post those, too.

Little wonder they finally did standardize things a bit later in time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 12:03 am:

Manuel, if you can come up with that supplier, it would be great. I need some very light unusual chain for an antique coin-op machine. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 07:14 am:

Hi Cris , I have a spare Holsman engine for sale down under here in AUSTRALIA if you know of anyone in need .


MY E/MAIL ADDRESS ------bob @bobtrevan.com.au


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Do we know who made motors for Holsman?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 10:23 am:

Holsman made there own motors. They made 2 and 4 cylinder. I am going in about an hour here and will take some measurement.
Tim thanks for the scans of the catalogs, never seen anything like them before. My sprockets closely match the plain steels provosts for 1
Inch pitch block chain will know more here in an hour or so when I get to the shop and measure.
Bob is it a 2 or 4 cylinder motor. I would be interested and knows couple others who be too. I will send an email tonight.
the gear sprocket for the starter chain is in the upper part of my photo sitting the end of the crankshaft where the flywheel would go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 04:51 pm:

So I measured the sprockets, on the motor diameter of the sprocket 4.5" dia and 1" between teeth ( 1 inch pitch so I am thinking block chain?) hand crank 3" dia. 1 inch between top of teeth.


Top sprocket going to hand crank.


Bottom sprocket motor side


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 04:57 pm:

Forgot 1/4 of inch thick on both sprockets


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 05:44 pm:

Actually the pitch is the distant between the radii at the bottom of the teeth (center to center)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 06:05 pm:

Sold all my Holsman collection about 5 years back to a fellow in New York. Sorry I cannot help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 07:41 pm:

Nicholas, it's been several years since I have done much with chain and sprockets, but I think the pitch (pitch diameter I think it is called) is actually measured where the center of the rollers are, not at the bottom of the radius on sprockets. I could well be mistaken though. I do recall that it can be a bit confusing. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 08:13 pm:

A little web searching revealed this picture:

pitch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 08:33 pm:

David : That's what I meant by Center to center


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 10:13 pm:

Not only do you need to know the pitch and width of the sprocket, you also need to know the diameter of the chain rollers that will fit the sprocket. Different roller diameters will effect how the chain fits on the sprocket.

Given the base diameter of the sprocket and the number of teeth a person could calculate the required roller diameter.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

Nicholas, yes, but the distance between the rollers is different at the bottom of the teeth and at the centerline of the rollers on a sprocket. That was my point Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 10:49 pm:

Hi Chis ---It's a 2cyl. -I WILL BE AWAY ON A ''T'' CAR RALLY TILL MONDAY . REGARDS BOB T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 11:07 pm:

Looks a lot like the sprockets on my first two bicycles, one prewar and one. 1949. The 1/4 sprocket width would be about the same. Maybe you should check with a bike shop that has some old stock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 12:09 am:

On my Dad's childhood bicycle, the chain is two close together links followed by one father apart
sorta like ; ll ll ll ll ll if that describes it, and the wheel sprocket looks just like the one in Jim's posting above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 01:10 am:

Chris, I'm thinking modern roller chain might work on those sprockets. ANSI #41. A foot of it from McMaster -Carr supply is $3.06/ ft. Their part number is 6261K174. .... I'd try a foot and see if it works first. If it doesn't work, you're out $10 ......if it works , then order how many feet you need along with various connectors ......It's for crank starting it, right? Does it continually run once started?

Bicycle chain isn't that wide. Possibly motorcycle chain would be, but that's pretty rare stuff, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 01:19 am:

Went back and measured the base to the next base as described. Still comes out close toe inch. Tried measure the radia from what I can tell 1/4 rollers should work. Bob when you get back could send some photos of your motor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 02:19 am:

Chris, old bicycles often had sprockets which had teeth twice as far apart as more modern ones. A modern chain will still work on those, two links fitting between each tooth on the sprocket. If your sprockets have 1" pitch, a 1/2" chain may well do the job. I believe this is the size for bicycle chains, but really modern bikes with multitudes of sprockets for chain gears will use an even narrower chain than I used to use.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 10:10 am:

Chris,
The 1/4" roller diameter sounds kind of small and if it is not the size that the sprockets were designed for, it will cause abnormal wear.

If you can measure the base diameter of the sprockets and say how many teeth are on each sprocket I can calculate the required roller diameter so that the chain matches the sprockets perfectly.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Saturday, July 26, 2014 - 11:43 am:

Jim I am at work now but will be there this afternoon will measure again post up the base diameter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, July 27, 2014 - 04:44 am:

Chris, take your sprockets to a local (if you have one) IBT (Industrial Bearing and Transmission) store, or, anything like that. I am sure that they could help you out. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 05:11 pm:

Hi Chis, Pictures as requested .

MY E/MAIL ADDRESS bob @bobtrevan.com.au


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris becker on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 07:25 pm:

Tim I must have missed your post. I will be only using it for crank starting the motor. Just sent an order in for a foot lets see if it works. Good looking motor there Bob will send an email this evening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Monday, July 28, 2014 - 09:28 pm:

Chris, It is amazing how similar our motors are. We do know Norwalk Auto-Bug purchased motors from the Model Gas Engine works in Indiana, but we believe only 25 or less were ever made. Depending on what source you believe, between 2500 and 6000 Holsmans were made.

Let us know how that sample works out and I will keep my eyes open for some block chain in that same size. You can always replace the modern stuff with original down the road. Good luck. Auto-bug motor2


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