Hi, I am a new member and just bought my first T. I have been in the hobby my entire life, I'm in my late 40's. PLEASE give me direct, honest, unreserved feedback about my car and what is and is not correct. I have thick skin, and I know most T's have lots of incorrect parts on them. This car I bought is decent and I think mostly correct, but I was not able to find a local expert to look at the car for me before I purchased it. I think I did well, but I will let the members be the judge. Here we go.....
Photos didn't post, I'll try again.
And after a resize lesson.......
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Well, not all of them up loaded but not too bad for my first post. Please post positive, negative, and comments......you won't hurt my feelings! I have been at this hobby a long time. Thanks to all. PS Is there anyone in the Springfield Mass area that can let me bend their ear on getting the car to start on the crank easier? Ed
One last note.....if you would like more photos or detailed shots...just ask!
From what I see, it looks like you have a pretty nice 1915. Just a few non-1915 items I see.
The carburetor is non-1915.
fluted headlight lenses are non-1915.
Is the cast date 2-25-15?
What is the s/n? 707xxx?
Correct door latches, coil box, switch, headlight switch, cowl, rear axle backing plates, above axle wish bone and accessory under the axle support, side lamps, even L angle headlamp connectors. Very good.
Everything else looks very correct.
Spark and gas levers and quadrant should be brass plated, but very few are. Mine isn't.
Welcome and good buy.
: ^ )
The most serious thing I see is, you're missing the spring clamps from your rear leaf spring. I would think those should be replaced at once. Call Lang's Old Car Parts at this phone number: (800)872-7871. They'll probably ask you to e-mail them some photos of your car. Do what they tell you.
Your car has some after-market suspension parts with which I'm not familiar, but somebody on this forum will be able to advise you about that. That will take no more than a few hours (because this is the best antique car forum in the world).
Other than that, what you've got there seems to be a fairly original 1915 Touring. And it has a speedometer, which was only available as an option and today is a very, very desirable piece of equipment. Sure wish my '15 had one. Assuming the engine runs well—which, of course, you already know—yes, I think you did very well, indeed.
Thanks guys, I have receipts for 12k worth of work by a well known T expert. It was done 15 years ago....all new bearings, pistons, valves, drums, bands, tires, too much to list. Car has only 10 miles on it since it was done. My gut told me it was mostly correct. My left rear wheel is loose at the hub. I put water on it, but it didn't tighten up. Any ideas? Thanks, Ed.
2 25 15
Have history from new.......
Speedometer would have been included as standard equipment through August 1915. It has one of the "Standard Thermometer" brand units that were used during that period of time. The Standard units are not very well made.
The rear fenders appear to be 1917 or later.
Very nice indeed. One thing also is the exhaust manifold has a bit of pipe that looks like it was for an accessory Stromberg carb preheat device. That may now be causing some exhaust noise and blowing. May be nice to change to a non modified exhaust manifold?
I'd get the clamps on that rear spring pack like Bob mentioned above. They go in the curled leaf end towards the end of the spring pack.
Edgar -- Your T is one of the most "correct" 15's I've seen. I can't tell for sure from the pics whether the rear fenders are crowned thru the center, but if they are, they're later ones as Royce said. Also can't tell for sure whether the fan hub is brass or iron. The original one was brass for 15's; starting in about '17 they were cast iron using the same pattern shape. The crown in the brass pulleys wore away, and many of them were replaced with iron ones. It's very difficult to find a good used brass one. Usually what is necessary is to find a decent brass one and rebuild the crown using brazing rod, then machine it down to the desired crown. Chaffin's makes a nice reproduction in brass which has ball bearings in it, but they son't look exactly like the original ones.
The other guys have covered most of the other obvious stuff. Your car is a very early '15 model year car, since the '15 open cars weren't widely available for sale until the end of Jan. or beginning of Feb. of '15.
I don't have any personal experience with those aftermarket shock absorbers, but I'd be leery of them. If it were my car, I'd take those off. Your car will ride fine without them. This might be overly cautious, but a good friend of many of us here was killed in his T a couple of years ago when an aftermarket shock on his front axle failed. It was not this same brand of shock, but I'd still be skeptical. The original setup is fine, and it appear that you still have the original early spring perches. You'll need to turn those toward the outside, and probably swap them from side to side to get the correct geometry for the axle.
All in all, it's a great car and you did well in acquiring it. I'm jealous.
I looked at the rear fenders, hard to tell from the pictures--in some they look flat (correct) but in others they look crowned, like the later ones. The only thing I see (other than the missing spring clip) is that wire for the accessory spring mount is bent and rubbing on the muffler pipe; that would bother me, might be putting stress on the pipe.
Other than that, looks really good!
After reviewing the pics, I see (from the reflection in the rear body panel) that your car has a 1917 or later tail lamp bracket. The original one looks similar, but it is made of two pieces, bolted together.
Edgar - Great looking touring! Congratulations.
Thanks for all the comments! So far it's better than I expected. How can I tell a correct set of rear fenders? What years and body style are the same? Can someone post a photo of their 15 with correct rear fenders? How about some feedback of what is the correct carb for this car's date. I see there are three choices? I one better than the others? Thanks all, keep the comments coming!
nice car ,I would drive it!!!.that's about the last time they used the 14 style door locks. good luck with it.charley
It looks to me like the worst thing about this car can be fixed by moving it to my garage.
Here's an original 1915 rear fender.
The same fender stamping was used in 1916 but had a different support bracket that only used two rivets for the 1916 model year cars.
Here's an original 1917 rear fender for comparison:
That car is no good at all, poorly matched for northern climates. I suggest you dispose of it here in Houston in my garage.
April 1915 Ford Times illustration
Edgar, Your car's rear fenders look correct to me. The 15/16 rear fenders, though technically flat, do have a very slight convex shape to them at the rear. Which, I think is being accentuated by the lighting in your photo. My '16's rear fenders look exactly the same as yours and are definitely not the later crowned fenders to which Royce was referring.
All that caught my eye was the Radiator hose upper hose clamp not being of 1915. Lol
The only thing I see wrong is that it is not going down the street with a smiling driver behind the wheel!
That is a great looking 15! Interesting fuel "warmer" off the exhaust. Find a brass Holly carb and you are good to go.
Oh my, it has a crease in the curved splash apron! Oh my, maybe it has a similar crease on the other side!
Again it is the pictures which make it look shallow or worked, but the crease BELONGS there, in fact as a hard crease line.
Thanks all.....here are some fender shots, as well as fan pully and rear plate bracket. Looks like I have later style fenders. Strange so much is correct but the rear fenders and plate bracket are wrong. Maybe it got in a accident from the rear years ago. I'm rather sure they have been on the car a VERY long time. I must admit I used the MTFCA info posted on the site to figure out it was a rather decent car. I looked at quite a few all price much more than this one and almost all of them were assembled from several different years of car. The best thing about this one was it was very close to my home, and priced more than fair. My new delema is should I just get a set of correct fenders and hang them on the wall or should I put them on the car. It has a nice patina when painted in the 50's and I don't want to change the look of the car. I plan to drive the wheels off of it soon. Any ideas about the loose wood on the rear hub?
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I think John Semprez is right. It's the lighting that makes the fenders look more convex than they are.
Ford's 1915 and '16 model-years were the transitional step between the Edwardian Era of brass radiators, acetylene headlamps and brass side lantern-equipped horseless carriages and the noticeably more modern-bodied, all-steel automobiles. In fact, the Horseless Carriage Club of America has split the issue exactly down the middle by making the determination that 1915 Fords are horseless carriages, whereas 1916 Fords (made after December 31, 1915) are not. This may be the primary reason why so many '16 Fords have been "converted" into '15 Fords (by the simple means of switching out three plain-black kerosene lanterns with brass-trimmed lanterns—which fools some guys, but not others). This practice has become so widespread that an unconverted '16 has become a rarity. It's been said that more 1915 Model T Fords exist today than were ever originally manufactured.
The numbers-matching game of absolute, historical correctness makes sense for the Pierce-Arrow, Packard and Locomobile crowd, but, in my humble opinion, that stuff is a little out of place in the Tin Lizzie's ultra-casual world of denim overall-wearing farmers and coal-shoveling, working men. Humor and silliness are the very marrow of the Flivver's adorable, Vanadium-steel bones and that's borne out by the greatest farceurs (look it up) of all time: Laurel & Hardy, Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, The Keystone Cops, and the list goes on and on. In particular, the real star of the Fred Mac Murray movie, "The Absent-Minded Professor," is a 1915 Model T Ford. So don't let anybody tell you that there's something wrong with your Tin Lizzie's appearance. Just crank it up and enjoy the car!
Hi Bob, thanks for the comments. It was important for me to get a correct car for the HCCA tours. I have to admit I had a 14 Cadillac with the 2 speed rear end and only 7000 original miles on it. I sold it as it seemed like a lot of the big brass guys aren't too much fun to drive or hang with. To be honest, I have a garage full of Pierce Arrow's.....more than I need, but I have been wanting a T for years. I'm sorry it took me so long to get one. All the Ford guys have been great help and a lot of fun. I am quite sure I will have another in the garage soon! The current 15 will stay as correct and stock as possible. I do see a hot rod speedster project in my future! Right now I would like to get it to start a little bit easier, and I'm going to start working on that this week. The only issue is the loose spokes on the rear wheel. Any help with that would be very well received. Thanks to all and please keep commenting, Ed.
I had aftermarket shocks like that on my 14.
they were stamped flex-lever made in Streator Ill.
I have not seen another set till now. Mine were wore out at the pins. No place to oil them. Mine were also connected to the frame via a clamp on the spring side. I replaced them with shackles I got from a vendor. No difference in ride that I could tell.( of coarse i'm old ).
No two ways about it: Loose spokes are horribly dangerous and they can, very suddenly, kill you and your passengers deader than Elvis. You'll read in a few places how some guys will try to swell up the wood by soaking it in water or boiled linseed oil, or they'll use an injected liquid wood-hardener, or push C-shaped, metal washers in at the ends of the spokes. Don't do any of that stop-gap stuff, because getting a wheel completely rebuilt is too inexpensive to mess around with halfway measures which may or may not be safe.
Call Stutzman's Wheel Shop at (330) 897-1391 and leave a message on his machine. He'll completely re-wood your wheel for less than two-hundred bucks (shipping is extra). The high quality and reasonable pricing of his work is the stuff of legend.
Your serial number dates the engine to Monday, March 1, 1915.
Based on the rest of the car, the steering column is probably correct. If you post pictures showing a good view of the horn button and the horn wire tube, we can tell for sure.
Great car! Just fix the safety items and drive it! I also feel the same as Bob when it comes to wheels. They are to important to try and fix a 100 year old wood wheel. There are many great shops to rebuild your rear wheels.
You posted a question at 9:36AM and by 6PM, you received a ton of responses. Is that cool or what? There is no greater (or faster) source of practical information on the Model T Ford than you'll find right here on the MTFCA forum. You're in the right place, Bro. Pull up a chair.
Bob, so far the T world has been nothing but good to me. It's why I decided to get one in the first place. I like to drive and spend time with others who work on their own cars. Today there are too many check book owners who can't even start their cars......never mind drive them. I learned to start and drive my T on you tube..... and I'm sure I'll meet some local guys to drive around with. The 15 touring is in a permanent parking place in my garage. I'll keep it till I die. I think I can fit one or two more in the garage.... just taking my time to find something interesting...... like a pick up.
I have a friend who has a nice 1937 Packard, and he enjoys driving it. (I expect I would too.)
He started hanging around my shop some, and he noticed that "Model T guys are a lot more fun than Packard guys." So he asked me to help him find a nice Model T, which I did, and he joined our T club. He and his wife go on most of our club's tours, and they have a big time. Just shows to go ya', Model T folks are the best!
Edgar -- your fenders appear to be the correct ones for your '15. They are flat across the middle section. Notice in Royce's picture of a '17 fender above, how they are convex or "crowned" through the middle.
I still can't tell about the fan hub. It has some brass-colored goo on it. It also has that same goo on the steel blades, making them appear to be brass-colored. Wipe some goo off and take another picture of the hub, or use a magnet to see whether it's made of iron or not
Your tail lamp bracket is till a '17 or later. .
"still" a '17 or later.
Might want to try this on the '15 fender. This is my '19.
I think the fenders are correct, but I will get a strait edge and take a photo of them in the morning when I get out of work. The motor runs hot but is still tight, thoughts on a water pump or a new radiator for better heat exchange? It stays warm and doesn't overheat unless you let it sit and idle. It will steam for about 30 seconds after shut down on a 90 degree day. It doesn't push water once it finds it's level. I think I would like to get another rear wheel as I can keep the car mobile while I have a new one made. What year rear wheels are the same? Also, my manifold and intake pipe are different / modified.... can someone explain to me in detail what is different on mine and what was factory? I am thinking of a new carb, or buying a correct one and rebuilding it myself. Thanks all for the comments. Keep them coming. Ed
So how much gas is on your fender???
Edgar, if that photo of the fender bracket clamp is yours, I'm pretty certain they're the correct fenders. As for the tailamp holder, I can't see enough detail in the reflection to say one way or 'tother.
Nope, my biggest worry is the loose wheel, then any possible cracks on the fan, then that wire brace rubbing on the muffler pipe.
You don't want to be singin' that old Country Western song, 'You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel."
Here is a side shot of the car the day I picked it up. Gives a good impression of what the car looks like. Any worse and you would want to paint it, any better and you wouldn't want to drive it. Just the way I like them..... and the hardest ones to find. Ed
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One more, sorry for the same shot above.
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Any idea if the babbit thrust washers in the rear end have been replaced?
What's holding the crank in the 3 to 4 o'clock position? You mentioned a concern for how hot the engine/radiator was.On my '15 I bit the bullet and got a Brassworks flat tube radiator to replace the round tube version, which you have, and am glad I did. I can run all day in upper 80 degree heat and the motometer barely makes it to the open circle near the top. The old round tube rad pegged the top everytime, and it was fairly new. Nice car, btw.
David, you're reading that stick wrong. It shows round fenders, oval fenders and something called cowl fenders. Seriously, I was literally filling up at the station when I suddenly had the idea of using my gas stick as a straight edge. See what an effect this forum has.
I would agree with most of what has been said above.
I have wedged spokes in steel felloe wheels and it has been successful, but with the wood felloes, I would recommend that you find someone who will rebuild your wheel. They tend to get worn, rotted, or split with age and wear, and it is dangerous to drive on them. You might find a wheel wright in your area or use Stutzman, who has been recommended by club members.
A water pump will not really fix the overheating problem. You could try taking it to a radiator shop for cleaning and sealing. If it still overheats, your best bet would be to get a new radiator. They cost around $1,000 and although it is a high price to pay, it is better than ruining a good engine by overheating. A flat tube radiator cools the best, but if you are going to show the car you might want to go with the round tube. What happens to old radiators is the fins separate from the tubes and the connection corrodes, causing a poor heat exchange. Then even though the radiator is clean and leak free, it will still overheat.
Only other thing I can see wrong, is the clean drip pan under the engine! This indicates one of 3 things. 1. No oil in engine. 2. Everything is sealed very well, which is unusual in a Model T. 3. The car hasn't been driven since you cleaned the drip pan.
It isn't wrong to have parts later than the year of manufacture. Many times owners took the car to a Ford dealer for replacement parts, which were later manufacture than their car. However, if you want the car to be all original for judging, you will need to find the parts original to the year. If you want to use it for touring, just keep it looking clean and running well and fix the safety features. 99% of people who see your car won't even know the difference.
Ed -- You don't need a straightedge to tell whether your fenders are crowned or not. It's quite obvious.
And from your description above: "It stays warm and doesn't overheat unless you let it sit and idle," I don't think you have an overheating problem. As long a your car doesn't overheat while it's moving, everything is working as it should. They all will overheat while sitting and running, unless you put a fan in front of the radiator.
p.s. -- In Springfield, MA, you are only 54 miles from our best Model T parts vendor, Lang's Old Car Parts in Baldwinville, MA. Lucky you.
I'd recommend that you stop by and get acquainted.
Your 3:59 post showed the wrong tag/tail light bracket. The 15 is 2 piece with the tag part bolted to the other part. (The 16 is riveted and all others are like yours). Also, how are you going to oil your spring shackles? The figure 8 spring shackles had oilers, while the later "L" shaped ones oiled through holes in the perches and main leaf. Nice car.
And as Lt. Columbo would say, "There's just one more thing." -- From the last pics you posted, it appears that the top material has shrunk (as they do with time), causing the windshield and top irons and bows to be slanted toward the rear. The top also has the wrong shape of rear window.
I recommend that you get a new top from Classtique, whose website is here: http://www.classtiqueupholstery.com/ Their parts fit right; some of the others don't.
The rear shackle is later, and your fan is not brass. Someone painted it brass. Your rear window (light) is the 25-27 style. I can't tell on your front shackles, because of the aftermarket shock set up.
Ed -- When you deep-six those aftermarket shocks, you can get the correct shackles and oilers. Lang's has new ones.
p.s. -- Lang's also has used parts. it looks like you'll need a pair of rear spring perches when you get rid of the shocks.
As mentioned above, a water pump is a Band Aid used to treat the symptom instead of curing the problem. Actually, there are two common cooling problems.
1. Dirty system (rust & crud clogging passages).
2. Loose fins. Over the decades, vibration causes the fins which transfer heat from the tubes to the passing air to come loose. When the fins are not in solid contact with the tubes, the radiator fails to radiate.
The cure for the first problem is a thorough cleaning. The second has two cures. One is a new radiator. In this case that would be from Brassworks, currently the only maker of new 1915 radiators. I prefer the second cure, recoring the original radiator. This has two advantages. It allows you to keep the original tanks, and it costs a few Benjamins less than a new radiator.
Edgar, I was at HCCA tour in Couer de laine [sp] in Idaho amongst some really expensive machinery. While chatting with one fellow driving a 15 T touring like yours, he reeled off his stable of expensive cars left at home in the garage. I asked him why he was driving a humble T model. His reply, simply, "I know it will make the distance."
You have the best of both worlds now, a reliable car to tour and a great bunch of fellow tourists.
Allan from down under.
Just read your response to my joke--LOL!! Ya got me!
Edgar, you need to explain your wheel problem a little more. Stuzmans is very good, but your wheels are wood felloe, so I think the price is a little more (than the metal felloe wheels).
IF the aftermarket shocks are safe, I'd leave them, unless it really effects the ride negatively. Unusual accessories are cool, IMHO.
Well, you are no fun. You come on here, say you want serious feedback, the bad, the ugly, whats wrong with it. Then you you show us photos of one of the nicest and (more importantly) most correct 1915 model Ts I have seen in quite a while! How can us old nit-pickers tear it apart?
Everyone else has pretty much covered it. And I like what you said about "Any worse and you would want to paint it, any better and you wouldn't want to drive it. Just the way I like them". I have always said that I like a car nice enough to park next to someone's show car, and not feel ashamed of it, yet rough enough to set a picnic basket on the running board and not worry about a minor scratch on the fender or apron.
The shock absorbers are, for lack of a better name, H&D type. Check this previous thread for something similar to yours; http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111798.html?1258884029
H&D type shock absorbers have been discussed quite a few times here over the past several years. In a quick look, I did not find the thread that discussed the names behind the "H" & "D". If I recall correctly, it was two names behind the patent, and they apparently licensed a lot of different companies to manufacture them in both single arm and twin arm versions. They were manufactured in the USA, Europe, and Australia, very often with no name on them to identify who made them.
A long time ago, I had a nearly complete set of genuine H&D twin arm shocks. they were a bit worn, and I got a good offer for them, so I sold them. I am somewhat sorry I did, because I have never seen a full set like them since.
IF (that is a big IF) they are in good condition, not worn, good, solid shackle bolts, etc, I would use them. They and Hassler shock absorbers seem to be stable and well-built enough to be reasonably safe for use on modern roads in a model T. There is another type of accessory shock absorber common on brass era Ts that should NEVER be used on a car. (At least not the front end version) They make the front end too unstable (a shaky thing at best) and have contributed to several serious accidents (at least one fatality).
Beautiful '15 T touring!
Drive carefully, and do enjoy that car! W2 (another HCCA guy)
I would like to give a BIG thank you to all who responded to my post. I am surprised how correct the car is. After consideration of all the comments I think I will do the following. I plan on leaving the aftermarket shocks on the car, I will inspect them for safety, as well as the entire chassis and drive line. I will install the spring clamps ASAP. I will have a new wheel made to replace the one with the loose spokes. I think I will change the carb to a Stromberg O H as there are indications it had one on it early in it's history. I will install a correct rear light bracket. And will check the fan hub and replace it with a correct one if the current one is painted cast iron. I plan on installing all new wires, and a gel cell battery. I will also look at an after market timer for less under hood maintenance issues. Other than that I plan to drive the wheels off of it. I would like to add two more T's to the garage, a late style pick up and a early speedster tricked out with lots of vintage style speed equipment. Thanks again to all for the nice comments. You have made me feel most welcome for a newbie. Ed.
It should have a bulb horn I think. There's a real good 1915 horn on eBay right now. Like this:
From the encyclopedia:
Early production used the bulb horn, mounted under the hood. This was superseded by a magneto-powered horn, with a brass-trimmed bell, beginning on some production in January 1915. Both horns mounted under the hood by the steering column. The magneto horns were manufactured by Bridgeport Brass initially, then by Heinze and Clum. All electric, with no brass trim, by October 1915.
The way I read that, your March car could have either a bulb horn or the magneto type. I'd go by whichever steering column the car has.
His steering column has no tube for an electric horn wire. Look at the pictures above.
Looking at the only photo showing the steering column I wasn't sure, but you're probably right.
Hi, the car has an electric horn, it came in a box with the car. It's brass and looks like it was painted black at some time. I will take a photo of the horn and button as well. I will try and post them before 8 pm tonight. Thanks, Ed.
A minor thread drift here, and I'm sorry I can't seem to look it up online(I'm on dial-up--slooow dial up at that: 33K).
When did the rear lamp/license bracket go from two pieces to one piece? I have a Dec '15 car, so want to know! I think the one I have is one piece (it's in a box somewhere, so can't look at it right now--rats!)
And Edgar, I wish my touring was looking half that good! BTW, if one wheel is loose, take a very close look at the others; they've likely been in the same environment all these decades.
Edgar, nice car! If you do chose to replace the timer I would recommend this one. There are no moving parts and require very little maintenance. Also, I noticed that your front cross member is bolted in the frame instead of riveted. http://www.modeltford.com/item/3221CB.aspx
Horn and firewall photos with a shot of the button. The horn is correct, not sure about the button.
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The horn button is a later type, from the 1920's. The steering column is the early 15 style that was for a bulb horn equipped car.
Your firewall is not an original one, so there is no sign of the original horn mounting screw holes or the cutout for the tube.
Here is how your firewall should look:
Except the horn should be painted black.
Ed -- I don't know what a Stromberg OH is, but it certainly isn't original equipment for your Ford. One which was original equipment in '15 is the Holley G, which is a very good carb. I drove my '15 Touring from NW Arkansas to Richmond, IN for the Centennial in '08, and it never missed a beat. That was an 1,800-mile round trip.
The Holley G starts easily, runs great, is correct original issue for your car, and most parts needed to rebuild one are available new. I really don't see that there's any other choice.
I dunno, I think the horn Ed pictured is a correct early '15 horn, but the pics are squished side-to-side. Here is what one looks like:
Ed's does say Brasco Horn by Bridgeport Brass Co., which is correct. I think the two types of horns (bulb and mag) were used concurrently for several months early in the calendar year 1915, so either horn could be considered correct for Ed's car. But if it doesn't have the wire tube on the underside of the steering column, and if it doesn't have the two holes for the horn button on the top of the column, then the car would have come with a bulb horn, not the Brasco one.
So you have another choice to make, Ed.
I read not all of the columns had tubes in early march. There are no holes drilled that I can see. The toe board has a notch for the horn tube. Question? Where did this horn come from? I don't think the other owners would have made the effort to find what has to be a difficult item to locate at best. Since I have the horn and it's brass I will run the electric as my choice of possible options. I will need the correct button. What's the deal with my fire wall? Can I buy a correct one, or di I have to make it? As far as the Stromberg carb goes...... I am involved with making and rebuilding the UU-2, UUR-2, EX-32, and EE-3 carbs and parts. We make more than 150 parts for these carbs. So after many years of being a Stromberg guy, I'll run one on my T. I'll get a correct one for the shelf.
Bob's makes a very nice and accurate reproduction of the correct horn button, and it's reasonably priced.
The earliest mag horns had no tube for the wire. That was added during the '15 model year.
That's what my horn looks like too, and it has/had only original paint on it--the projector was not painted on mine. Dec '15 car, but I will admit, I don't think the horn came with the car.
There's always the possibility that early on, your car was "updated."
Royce, could you post the link to the bulb horn, thanks!
Also, I have a '15 Canadian touring that I installed the brass belled magneto horn in and I'm thinking of putting the bulb horn in as it would be more correct for my car. How would the orientation of the tubing go with the car having a driver's side door? My car also doesn't have that large rivet near the back doors. Can someone clarify for me if this is correct for an early Canadian '15 or did somebody build my car up
Hard to tell with Canadian production, but that large rivet started, I believe, mid-year in production, so yours MIGHT be an early car.
My car was dated to March 1, 1915 and it has the rivet.
Many of the 1915 and as late as 1916 touring bodies did not have the carriage bolt (often times called a rivet) in front of the rear door. As the body builders switched to the metal seat frame, they passed the carriage bolt through the side of the body and into the seat frame. The Canadian bodies which were produced in Canada for Ford by other body makers (Fisher is one that is documented but I don't remember if they constructed the 1915s for Ford of Canada -- they probably did) but they continued to use the wooden seat frame technology without the carriage bolt. So your body is probably correct for a Canadian built body.
For Canadian cars the bulb horn was normally mounted to the steering column as the doors opened on both sides so mounting it to the door panel would not work. I don't think I have a photo of how it was mounted but it should have been similar to the 1914 Canadian cars that had the same doors on both sides of the body.
Thank you for the e-mail. I really like your car and I have been hoping to post note. Reference your question about where to look for a body number. Most of the 1915 USA open cars had a body number originally. In most cases if the wood in the car was replaced the body number was lost. Although sometimes it was placed on a metal tag and the person restoring the car would put the metal tag with the number back on the new wood. Sometimes they are painted over or something hit them etc. and they are no longer readable.
But it sounds like you have a good chance of finding a body number on your car. Below are the common locations. For additional details please see the posting Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html. The most common two locations for the body number on an open 1915 will be either the front seat wooden seat frame in front of the gas tank as shown below: (Note this is from a Jan 1914 Wilson touring body -- but the location is the same for the 1915 wood seat frame cars).
Because your car has the rivets showing above the coil box (you can see 7 of them and two more are hidden behind the wood framing) and it has the carriage bolt in the side of the body in front of the rear doors, I believe you probably have a metal seat frame rather than a wooden seat frame. In that case the number is normally found on the right front floor board riser as shown below. It can either be stamped into the wood as some companies did or stamped into a metal tag that is attached to the wood.
Below is a photo from Bill Elliott taken of a 1916 Beaudett body metal tag on the right hand floor board riser. In this case it reads 11 dot 15 for Nov 1915 date which would be a 1916 model year car.
Below is a photo from Jim Cook's Nov 1915 (1916 model year) Oh Henry that has a Wilson body that was produced in Aug 1915 but was sold new in Nov 1915 if I recall correctly so also a 1916 model year (based on the engine number). Note that it also has the "W" for Wilson with the body number.
Also please look on the front seat heel panel and rear seat heel panel to see if you find any sort of letter. I don't think you will -- again based on the rivets above your coil box. But please look and let us know if you do or do not see a letter. The photo shown below is again from Jim Cook's Oh Henry very early 1916 model year cut off.
Some of the body numbers have the year and month included in the body number (Wilson, Beaudett etc. did that). Others only have a number and so far we have not noticed a date code in those numbers.
You mentioned that you have some of the history on the car going way back. If you know where the car was originally purchased, we can probably figure out which of the Ford Plants assembled the car. And if you have the original "Ford Bill of Sale" it will let you know when the car was sold, what the engine number was, and what the car number was.
I'm always looking for additional information on the Ts as I am hoping to better document how they were made and in the case of the bodies who made them and how to tell by looking at the body who made them. The bodies interchange on the chassis fine. But not all the body panels or wood structure from one maker will necessarily fit the other body maker's car. Please let us know what you discover.
Again welcome to the forum and the Model T Hobby. You have a very nice looking Ford.
Everyone -- please keep those body numbers along with other details coming....
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I believe the top leaf in the rear spring should be tapered
Thanks for the info and email Hap. I looked and didn't see any numbers on my car. I am sure the wood is all factory. It all looks to have the same paint on it from new and not repainted. I see no evidence of any tags at any time. I did find this on the front toe board. (See photo.) It says FBCO-M It's got to be some reference to manufacture.......could it be Ford Body Company-M ? Also, someone said my firewall was replaced. I am quite sure it has been painted, but is shows no signs of replacement. Any thoughts? Why the big gap behind the fire wall between the wall and toe boards? Thanks, Ed.
"Why the big gap behind the fire wall between the wall and toe boards?"
Ed -- You're missing a metal piece called a dash shield which closes that gap. John Regan makes correct reproductions of those. You'll need to tell him whether you want one for a bulb horn or mag horn, as they're different.
I think an original car would be leaking more oil out the bottom. Maybe you should check your petcocks and make sure you have enough.
Seriously, I think it looks like a nice car. Fenders don't seem to have the deep crown of 1917 and look like 1915 as others have suggested.
What's the body style and year of the Packard? Is it a six, eight or more?
Ted, the motor is a new overhaul with 10 miles on it done about 15 years ago. The car you refer to is a 1936 Pierce V-12 club sedan. A basket case I restored 25 years ago while in my early 20's. I put 900 miles on it two weeks ago. I drive them! Thanks for the info Mike. I will order a shield tomorrow. Ed.
Thank you for looking. At http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm it has:
JUN 26, 1915 Factory Letter
"Hereafter when ordering body panels for 1915 cars, please give both the car and body numbers. The body number will be found on the right sill just inside the front door. This number will be preceded by a letter which indicates by whom the body was made.
"The above information is necessary as panels for bodies made by our various suppliers vary somewhat."
Because your car was assembled before that, it is possible that it never had a body number. Note those were numbers attached by the body maker and were often used by the body maker for internal tracking of how many bodies etc. were produced. Many of the body makers used body numbers even before they produced bodies for Ford. Such a Beaudett that numbered the Model S Roadster bodies they provided to Ford in 1908. They continued to number their open car Model T bodies until they stopped supplying bodies to Ford.
I would still recommend that you keep an eye out for a body number as sometimes they were put in other locations. Note the longer thread at: “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html. illustrated one other known location the body tag/number has been found. You may or may not discover another location they were placed.
I believe your floorboard is an original. However, I currently believe it is highly likely that Ford received the floorboards as part of the body order. But since the 1915-1925 open car floor boards are interchangeable, that Ford did not worry about which floorboard was installed back into the body. For a discussion of why I believe that is plausible -- please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/286255.html?1336008530 And if anyone has additional information to confirm or correct that belief, please let us know.
I don't remember what if any out come for the letters was decided. F B CO on some cars most likely refers to the Fisher Body Company -- but why the "M"? There is a posting with several links at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/279411.html?1333367361
Again, great looking T.
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Horn is here. The bulb mounting bracket is a repro, not the right type for a '15, but it would work. The horn is a 1915 only part:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-RUBES-BRASS-BULB-HORN-Authentic-FORD-MODEL-T-40- PIPE-/271541018620?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f391b1ffc&vx p=mtr
Rather than install a horn button on the present non-electric column, I'd get a column that has the proper small tube on it. It may take some time to find one, but there are some around. I have a pair with different parts damaged, and will use the two to make one good one.
This shows the kind of button and tube you want.
Thanks for all the very helpful info guys. It is much appreciated!!
Looks a lot like a car I looked at in Woodstock,Ct. a while back. If so it is a good one. I opted for a 1914, in Andover, but came close to buying the 15 in Woodstock. We are neighbors so hope to meet you and see the car in the near future. I will be at the Brimfield show on Oct.4th.
Yup, it's the one I bought. That's the week before Hershey, Is it Brmdield Ma. or Ct? What's the address of the meet? Thanks, Ed.
Thanks for all the help and photos......Now a question, the horn on ebay, what is a fair value? Remember I am new at this for T parts.... I don't have ANY idea if that is cheap or expensive. Also, if I run the bulb horn, what's my 15 Mag horn worth to someone? Thanks, Ed.
I have a correct brass Holly G with the choke housing notch. email@example.com
I would do a little more research before going to replace the horn. There were a lot of changes & experiments in that time period. It might be correct!
Anyone know where the horn button was placed on the early cars before the changes to the steering column? Maybe on the side panel? (That's where Dodge put them on their early cars)
Steve, looks like the top column had some water in it and the water froze!
Is your steering wheel wood painted black or made of hard black material? Here from the experts:
Wheel was 15” outside diameter, wood, and painted black. The wheel spider was malleable iron and painted black.
This small line of text was from Coachbuilt.com , Thought you may find it interesting about Fisher Body Company.
In 1910 Cadillac ordered 150 closed bodies, and Flanders placed a similar request. To meet this challenge, a separate closed-body engineering section was created, with a separate staff of engineers and draftsmen, a designer, a blueprint checker and a trim engineer. Finally the Fisher Closed Body Co. was formed, in December 1910.
More expansion followed. In 1912, Fisher organized a Canadian adjunct, Fisher Body Co. of Canada, Ltd., headquartered in Walkerville, Ontario, across the river from downtown Detroit. Lawrence P. Fisher joined his brothers in 1912 as superintendent of paint and trim, followed in 1913 by Edward F. and Alfred J. Fisher, who worked in every department of the plant before being given more responsible duties. Finally, William A. Fisher arrived in 1915 from the Fisher Auto Top Co., a large supplier of canvas car roofs.
To meet the challenge of growth, Fred and Charles developed new manufacturing techniques. They pioneered precision woodworking on a mass-production scale, developing jigs and fixtures that made it possible to mass-produce identical wooden parts for auto bodies for the first time. Wooden components, interchangeable from one body to another, no longer had to be hand fitted as in carriage-making. Fisher also pioneered a crude but effective sheet-metal stamping technique.
Unbeknownst to many, the Ford Motor Company relied upon outside suppliers for most of its coachwork during its first quarter century. It’s hard to determine who made Ford’s first automobile bodies but soon after the Model T was introduced the names of various Michigan-based sheet-metal, millwork and body-building firms begin to appear on Ford’s supplier list.
Initially most of the Model T’s bodies were supplied by Ford's existing auto body suppliers C.R. Wilson (1903) and Everitt Brothers (1908). O.J. Beaudette (1910), Kelsey-Herbert Co. (1910), American Body Co. (1911), Hayes Mfg. Co.(1911) Milburn Wagon Co. (1911), Fisher Body Co.(1912), and the Kahler Co. (1915). Wm. Gray & Sons supplied Henry Ford’s Windsor assembly plant with automobile bodies from 1906-1912. Regardless of their origin, all of the Model T’s bodies were interchangeable; however the individual parts in a body would not necessarily fit a similar-looking body if it was made by a different manufacturer.
Fisher Body supplied roadsters, touring cars, phaetons, and closed carriages to many makes. By 1914, Fisher Body Co. was building 105,000 car bodies a year, most of them open. And by 1920, the total came to 328,978, most of them still open. Closed car bodies were meeting with customer resistance, not so much because "no one in his right mind would ride behind that much glass," as Henry Ford once opined, but because the car manufacturers were jacking up prices of closed bodies far beyond what they were paying for them.
David D. -- If my memory serves, the horn button used with the mag horn was the same one we're accustomed to, even before the tube was added to the lower side of the column. My research at the Benson Center revealed that the very first mag horns did not have the tube for the wire; the wire was just wrapped around the column. I don't remember when the tube was added, but it was fairly early in the production of '15 cars.
My wheel is rubber and 15 inches. I think I will run the electric horn, but would like to have a bulb horn for the shelf.
Ed -- Your steering wheel rim should be steam-bent wood (Maple) with one finger-joint in it, painted black. They had a forged spider. The 15" "Fordite" composition rims were used in 1919 only.
Here's a pic:
The quadrant (the part with the small notches) is brass-plated steel.
And here's a pic of the correct Holley G carb:
David Holland mentioned above that he has an extra one.
Mike, maybe it is wood, it felt and flexes like rubber a bit...paint on it is kind of thick. I didn't want to scratch it to see what was underneath. Started ordering parts today, on Lang's website they show a once piece tail light bracket for 15......any additional comments on if it is a one or two piece bracket? I bought a Stromberg OH for it. Ed
The original tailight bracket design was two pieces riveted together (some were bolted together). I don't really know when that was streamlined to a one-piece bracket, it is possible that even my Dec 10, 1915 car should have a two piece one! In any case, it's just a part to look for, as it will just bolt on when you find it and only about 1 out of 10,000 folks will ever know!
Ed -- As I said above, the one-piece tail lamp bracket is for 1917 and later. The one you want is two separate pieces, one of which mounts the tail lamp to the body, and the other of which holds the license plate. The license plate piece has a threaded stud on one end which is secured to the main piece using a castle nut and a cotter pin. Sorry, I don't have a picture of one, but surely someone here does. If not, I can take one at my shop tomorrow.
Davd -- The 1915 bracket was bolted together, and the 1916 bracket was riveted. Your 12/15 car should have a riveted, two-piece one. 1917 and later used the one-piece bracket.
Mike....that's a nice car you have there. Thanks for all the info. I like my cars factory correct. I don't have any issues with bolt on changes but I like to have the correct components on the shelf if I am running non stock components. Slow constant improvements are what I aim for. I like to do the Hershey search..... been going sine 1972 when I was only 6 years old. With correct photos of parts in my smart phone, it should be easier to be sure and get the correct parts for my car.
From earlier in the above thread, the engine serial number is 707617 which is recorded on Mar 1, 1915 engine logs (the engine could have been assembled that day or the serial number could have been sent to a branch plant for assembly and stamped later.) The casting date was 2 25 15.
From: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/87861.html?1239472196 Trent Boggess shared:
The two piece tail light brackets actually came in two variations. The first one had a machined and threaded stud that went through the hole in the mounting and the two parts were held together with a 3/8 castle nut and cotter pin. By mid summer of 1915 the machining of the stud ended and instead the stud was simply riveted over as in the example that Keith has posted above.
In any case, the two piece tail light brackets came to an end in September 1915 when the third version, the one piece style was introduced and used in production. By the time coupe production resumed in November 1915, all the coupes would have used the style of bracket that Kim has.
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Note there were also some other comments on that thread worth reviewing.
Based on the above I believe a two piece with the threaded end and nut would be correct for a car assembled before mid summer 1915. And since Ed's car is most likely assembled in Mar or Apr 1915 that would be the style it came from the factory.
Ed -- you mentioned you had information on the car going way back. If you know when the car was sold -- that could also help with figuring out what is correct. In general in the USA, the 1915s with the exception of the closed cars were sold as fast as they could be produced. So if you know the car was not sold until Jul 31, 1915 then it could easily have had the riveted two piece tail lamp bracket.
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Hap, No details like bill of sale or date. Just where it came from. I read the entire post again...it's getting rather long.... the fan hub is cast iron so it seems that is the most incorrect thing on the car. I'll try and find one at Hershey. I know I can buy a new modern replacement, but I rather have the entire car with factory parts on it if possible. I'll put a letter in the file of the car with this entire post as well as what I am changing on it. Yea...I know it's anal, but I like to think that who ever has the car 100 years from now will be grateful for the information and history. And I am sure he will be cursing me for wearing out the car! Ed.
Hap -- Thanks for that link to the previous thread. Most of what Trent posted agrees with what I believed to be true. The two-piece bracket with the castle nut continued until "mid summer of 1915." Summer is June thru August, so mid-summer would be sometime in July. The 1915 model year ended July 31. So that part checks out, along with the riveted two-piece bracket being used during the 1916 model year. The part I didn't know is that the one-piece bracket was introduced in September of '15, according to Trent. That's only about a two-month stretch that the riveted bracket would have been used. I thought it was about a year later than that, but I know that Trent is thorough in his research, so I won't question his information. I'll need to plug that new info into my memory bank. One thing to keep in mind is that if there were lots of riveted two-piece brackets at the assembly plants, they would have been used up, no matter how long that took.
By the way, on that thread to which you posted the link, the last pic is of a '17 Coupelet, so of course it would have had the one-piece bracket. That pic looks familiar, but I don't remember where it went or who has it. I guess I need to make more notes and rely less on my memory.
Ed -- The bracket you're looking for is similar to the one posted by Keith Townsend on the thread to which Hap posted the link. But where you see the riveted end on that one, yours will have a castle nut and cotter pin. Happy hunting!
The dark green car next to the Model T looks like a Packard. The blue one is a Pierce?
No, both are Pierce Arrow's. Here is a photo of them on tour three weeks ago. 1932 Sport Coupe, series 54 (8) and a 1936 V-12 Club Sedan series 1602. The sedan was a basket case when I started. Restored in the garage with a high school friend 25 years ago. The coupe is a old restoration......a 20 foot car. The twelve is a CCCA senior winner. Ed.
(Message edited by adminchris on July 31, 2014)
Beautiful cars! What a contrast you can show between the Ford (basically a 1908 design that was an updated 1906 Model N Ford design) and the V-16.
One item I did not see discussed – but I may have missed it -- is the ID Patent Plate that was mounted on the dash on all the 1915s. Below is a photo of Jeff Yancho’s 1915 ID Paten Plate tag showing the general location with the top left hand corner covered by the car body. His tag was painted over sometime in the past but the location is what we are showing. The ID tag was already on the dash and the dash was already on the car frame, before the body was “dropped” onto the cars. An original firewall should have the tag or at least the holes should still be visible from where the ID tag had been mounted.
The photo above along with the quotes below are from the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/6661.html
The location of the ID Patent Plate or more specifically the location of the holes on an original dash can help date when the car was assembled. From the same thread
+++++++++++++ reposted from: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/6661.html +++
By jack daron on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:34 pm:
Can anyone tell me exactly where the 1915 data plate mounted on the firewall?
By John F. Regan on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 11:21 pm:
Depends on EXACTLY when the dash was made. The mounting holes for the data plate were 3-7/16" apart and always mounted horizontal of course. I will then locate the right end hole for you based on date of hole location movement. Remember the dates I give are DRAWING CHANGE dates and that a change on the drawing would likely take awhile to get into final parts on a car but also bear in mind that in 1915 they were still not running at the capacity they were in peak production. I would then say that likely any change to the dash would take at least 30 days and perhaps as many as 90 days to get onto a production car. Depends also on whether they may have just purchased a bunch of them to the previous revision. I shall give you the location of the right end hole in relation to the top left coil box mounting hole as viewed from the people side of the dash.
Before 12/4/14 the right hand hole was located 1-9/16 to the left and 3/16 below the top left coil box mounting hole.
On 12/4/14 the holes were both moved such that the right hand hole was now 5/8 to the left and 5/8 above the top left coil box mounting hole.
On 10/28/15 the holes were both moved such that the right hand hole was now 11/16 to the left and 5/8 above the top left coil box mounting hole. Yes they moved the plate a great big whopping 1/16 to the left on this date. Don't have a clue why except perhaps that maybe the corner of the plate was hitting the coil box mounting flange or mounting hardware some way. Maybe something on the coil box changed on that day. I will look that up and report back if I find anything interesting.
That is EXACTLY where it mounted during that time.
And further down the thread:
By John F. Regan on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:06 pm:
According to the record of changes for the dash. The 1915/16 dash used PINS to hold the patent plate on. The dash was drilled with pilot holes that were 5/64 Dia. and 1/8" Deep until 2/11/16 when the holes were changed to 3/32 Dia. and 1/4" Deep. That change says "Change diam. of holes for patent date plate pins from 5/64” to 3/32”." 5/64=.078 and a 14 gauge brass escutcheon pin is .080 and that is what appears to be pictured above on Jeff's dash. Brass escutcheon pins are still being made and offered at McMaster Carr for one. I don't know if the larger hole meant they then began using screws in early 16 or just used a larger pin or if they just wanted to make it easier to find the starting hole location and continued to use the 14 gauge pin. Anybody got a mid to late 16 with data plate still there?
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Note there is also a lot of good information on how the dashes were constructed, why they tend to delaminate, hole sizes and changes etc. in that same thread again for the 1915 cars.
Lots of items have been covered in this thread. But if you are still wanting to know more about the 1915s and how they were originally delivered from the factory I would also recommend purchasing a copy of Bruce McCalley’s (RIP) book “Model T Ford” or I like his CD version even better. The book is available from the club at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/model-t-ford-the-car-that-changed-the-world or the vendors. The book does not include the updates discovered and added to the electronic version “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia.” Bruce continued to update the electronic version after the book was published and a lot but not all of the written parts are online at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm . The CDs are available see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/333725.html?1357665853 for where and how to order. And the MTFCI has an excellent Judging Guidelines that you could review as you look at your car. They are on the Sixth Edition so be sure to order the new Sixth Edition. Word of Caution: Also note that as new information is discovered and documented the Guidelines are updated. That is one of the reasons they are on the Sixth Edition. If you had shown your 1915 to folks even as late as 1971 they would have likely shared it should have a brass bell hand operated Klaxon horn on top of the driver’s dummy door (ref page 146 & 147 of “From Here to Obscurity” first published 1971). But it was discovered later there was not any evidence that Ford ever purchased brass bell hand Klaxons. And there were no photos of cars coming off the assembly line ready to see with a hand Klaxon. So that mis-information was later corrected. Remember just because the judging guidelines say something – doesn’t mean it is always correct. I believe Mike Walker is working to document and recommend that they update the early 1915 section to include still having the holes for the acetylene gas generator – as he as well as several others of us believe that was probably the case. They welcome corrections and additional information – but they do want documentation to support the changes. But they have also already consolidated a wealth of details that provide a great guide to anyone wanting to make their car a little more like it probably came from the factory. There are several pages of details on the 1915 (as well as the other years). Those are available from the vendors (for example Lang’s has them see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/JG1.aspx ).
Again welcome to forum and Model T hobby.
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Show I mentioned is on route 20 in Brimfield ,Ma.
Best show in area - I have no involvement other than participation.
The horn tube should go up over the steering column, not as shown in Hap's picture above. Also, the elbow and hose shown in Hap's picture are NQR. Original stuff shown here:
Thanks Jerry, I will try and make the show. Ed
Let's unsquash the Pierces.
I looked at my firewall tag three times and didn't see a number. When I looked real close....there it was 640050 what relation does this number have to do with the car? The title is using this tag's number as a vin. After a look look over the car again, I am sure all the body wood and top bows are factory. Close inspection of the firewall with the information provided also shows it's the factory wood. Rear tail light bracket sure looks like it's been on there for a LONG time, and it doesn't show any signs of having been changed. Thanks for all the additional help and comments. My best, Ed.
The number stamped into the data-plate (actually, it's a "patent-plate") on your dashboard is the body number, not the Ford serial-number (VIN).
If your engine is original, the car's VIN number/Ford serial-number is stamped into the left side of the engine block, along with the date the engine block was cast. If I read your photo correctly, that number is 707517 (which makes sense for a '15 Touring). In the case of an engine-swap, the only VIN records will be on paper—meaning your bill of sale, DMV registration and, if you're lucky enough to have the car's title, there.
My car was on its second or third dashboard by the time it got to me and there was no data-plate, so I bought one from Lang's and, for the sake of simplicity, had it stamped with the engine number (which matches my registration). I figure if all my numbers agree, that will preclude any DMV-initiated paper-chase in the event I completely lose my mind and decide to sell my precious Tin Lizzie. And I won't make mention of the fact that authentic, blank data plates can be easily bought for less than five bucks.
Can someone post a photo of their 1915 touring toe board with a factory mag horn? I'm interested to know if the floor board had a cut out for the bulb horn even if they had the mag horn installed. Thanks, Ed
The floorboard did not need to be changed as the horn tube went through the area the metal dust shield covered. From John Regan’s web site -- he makes and sells those excellent dust shields that are designed per the Ford drawings based on his research at the Benson Ford Archives -- at: http://www.funprojects.com/products/3638E6.aspx he states: “Made exactly to the Ford factory information, this dash shield is laser cut precisely to size. It was first designed on 10/10/14 and likely began to appear within 60 days of that design just as soon as the previous version was used up. This shield was mounted to the dash using three mounting screws. The correct screws are supplied with this shield. The notch on the left side is where the horn tube passed through from the engine compartment. Originally finished in black enamel we supply this shield with black gloss powder coat for toughness. It is ready to install.”
And if you click on the link for additional documentation on that page he further says: “On 10/10/14 a notch was added on the left side to allow the horn tube to pass through the dash shield. This was the early 1915 model design. Beginning 1/15/15 the part was redesigned with the left end of the part being clipped on an angle to allow the horn tube to pass through but also a slight notch was added along the top edge at the left side to accommodate a magneto horn mounting bolt. This 1915-1916 model was the beginning of the magneto horn era. On 12/19/16 a radical new design for 1917 was drawn up that mounted to the 2 lower mounting bolts of the coil box. This design also had a notch for clearing the magneto horn mounting bolt. This "Christmas 1916" design lasted only 2 weeks before being replaced (on 1/2/17) with the more conventionally mounted 1917 dash shield. This "Christmas 1916" design was specified as black enameled as were all dash shields after that. Photos of the dash shields are on his site also.
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The upper / most forward floor board must be notched to clear the horn tube. All the floor boards would have been cut, regardless of type of horn. There was no special floor board for magneto horn equipped Model T's. There was of course a special steering column with the small round button on top, and the small unique horn wire tube on the bottom.
A note in the Ford archives says that 10,000 (perhaps more, but at least that many) magneto horns were used in calendar 1915. During that period of time there were more than 350,000 Model T's built. So simple math and the early date your car was built make it very unlikely to have been equipped with a MAG horn.
Here's a picture of original 1915 - 16 floor boards, which were notched for the horn tube and the speedometer tube. The horn tube in the picture is not installed properly, but it is an original elbow.
Thank you for the additional information on the floorboards. And the photo is even nicer for me. Note the 7 rivets that can be seen joining the cowl (there are 9 but two of them are hidden by the wood at the sides). I have been trying to track down information on which company or companies produced that riveted style cowl. Do you have any additional information on who the body maker was for that body? Any additional photos showing if it did or did not have a carriage bolt in front of the rear doors (I think it would have but that is based on a very very small sample size.)
Or do you have any information on other bodies with the riveted cowl area and who may have produced them and what time frame? Blackie my 1915 cut off has that style cowl but the wood on the floor board area has been long gone. I have not found any stamping on the front seat heel panel either (although sometimes those are easy to miss if the light is poor -- but I've looked several times with a good light.) Any other leads concerning that type of body would be appreciated.
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I don't know which body maker it is, but I can tell you it is not Beaudette (the most common 1915 body). That means it could be Wilson, Hayes, Fisher or one of the other less common suppliers. I bet we could track that down easily. Not sure whose car is pictured, I think it was for sale on Ebay several years ago.
Thank you. To prevent hi-jacking Ed's thread, I'll try to start a new thread asking about the riveted cowl bodies this weekend. And if anyone knows where the car went that is in Royce's photo above, please let us know.
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It looks like yours is a March car (707xxx) and my brother and I are restoring a May car which has a bulb horn. I'd recommend putting a bulb horn back on it for originality's sake, and I just so happen to have an extra restored Rube's horn for a '15 with the correct lozenge-shaped mounting bracket. I can post a picture when I get home.
Bill, that would be great. I was hoping to run the electric if it were possible the car had one around the date it was made, but it seems most think it should have the bulb horn...... I'm sure someone will want the mag horn.
This just popped up on the AACA website. A 15 Touring, with body number, and a Mag Horn. Check it out to see the details. Neat car. Asking 20k.
The link for the car above. Ed
Here's some pictures of the Rubes horn I have. I bought it on Ebay, cleaned and painted it, and replaced the screen. Note the shape of the bracket on the back. Earlier horns have an oval bracket but the 1915 horns are diamond-shaped.
I notice in one of the local car-club newsletters, there's a classified ad for a '15 Touring and the price is ten-grand.
I have no connection to the seller, but the price certainly is right.
I phoned the owner and got his permission to repeat his ad and phone number here:
1915 Model T Ford Touring Car. Good condition. Excellent Brass. $10,000.
George C. Strom (631) 749-3182 or ford firstname.lastname@example.org
I messed up the e-mail address (email@example.com). Maybe I better just post it in the classifieds.
You have a real 1915 horn. The tube screwed onto it in your pictures is incorrect for a '15. The reed on a '15 is at the bulb end of the tube.
Ed -- The '15 car you posted the link to has a later steering column. Don't copy that horn wire tube for yours. I can post pics of how it should look if you want, or Steve Jelf might have some.
All -- What kinda' gizmo is that where the coil box used to be?
Mike, a photo of a early column with and without a tube would be great. While I am no expert from what I have read I think it is possible a car built in early march could have the mag horn. If someone would make an argument either way that was convincing I would try and make the car correct. For now I think the best course of action is install the firewall shield and mag horn using the late style button so I don't have to drill the column and I can make a final decision in a few months. If it works out it couldn't have the mag horn, I'll trade my horn for a correct bulb horn. I think the mag horn would have more value than the bulb horn, don't you think? It will probably take me 6 months or more to get the car all sorted out and correct. I want it finished by March first of next year, as I am going to throw it a 100 th birthday party for the car club at my garage.
My understanding is that the 10,000 (or more) mag horns were put on cars concurrently with the bulb horns during the '15 model year, so either one could be considered correct. Apparently the mag horn "experiment" was a success, since the bulb horn was done away with for the '16 model year cars.
The bulb horn was used well into the 1916 model year Mike. The note specifying all cars to have Electric horns is dated October 1915, The 1915 model year ended on July 31, 1915.
OK, good. Glad to get that straightened out. I had forgotten the date.
Anyone have an opinion as to value and usefulness on this trans for my 15? Is it complete? What does it require to install? Cut down drive shaft? Thanks, Ed
Photo from above post.
It's a 3 speed unit.Per the owner.
I can't read the name on the side, but it looks like an old Warford. They were a popular aftermarket accessory back in the day. They also have straight-cut gears and are a bear to shift on the fly. There's a current reproduction version of these called a KC Warford, sold by Texas T Parts. They have modern gears and shift like a Swiss watch.
And yes, new or old, they require that your drive shaft, its housing, and the rear radius rods all be shortened.