E-timer

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: E-timer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Utz on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 06:47 pm:

The E-timer includes a digital computer, so what does the TW Timer offer along those lines?



That digital computer automatically monitors engine temperature, RPM and a few other parameters to automatically adjust the spark for optimum performance.



The E-timer also delivers one really hot spark to each spark plug when every piston is at the exact same level to optimize performance and power.



The E-timer uses 4 original coils but operates them differently, like a more modern ignition system.



Comparing the E-Timer to a TW Timer is like comparing a new Ford automobile engine to a Model T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 07:22 pm:

Bob,
Maybe someone can provide specifications to the contrary but I believe that the E-timer only can adjust the spark timing based on the RPM and no other parameters. Some folks like to run it in the auto timing mode with the timing based on the RPM and some operate the E-timer in the manual timing mode so that they can adjust for those "other parameters" as needed. The E-timer is quite a neat accessory but the computer is no way near that found in modern cars.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 07:46 pm:

The TW Timer, like all other timers that operate using the Ford Magneto, works on "MAG" and does not require any battery or charging system. The E Timer won't work on "MAG". Without a battery, the E Timer equipped Model T owner is a pedestrian.

Model T's are made to operate without any fragile, soon to fail modern electronics. They are best enjoyed the way Henry designed them. We don't need no steenking microchips.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman Miller on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 08:13 pm:

millions and millions of modern cars use "modern electronics" for engine control!!!!!!!!!! Not a lot go walking from a failure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

i suspect the new batch might run on magneto too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 09:14 pm:

My 2011 Silverado wouldn't run without a battery either, but I haven't been a "pedestrian" because of it yet.

In my case, my charging system works better than my magneto. An E-timer is a perfect option for my use.

I'm happy to hear they will be available again, and will vote with my wallet and buy one. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 09:44 pm:

Having recently installed a TW timer, it looks like it's going to stay. So far, it has the mechanical reliability of the Anderson, but without the cylinder to cylinder timing variation. And that's important with battery only operation. The improvement in performance was quite noticeable.
I'd like to have seen a simplified E-timer; one that simply switches the coils without all the microprocessor stuff and automatic timing, but the TW turned up instead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 - 10:35 pm:

For $400 this thing should make coffee and polish brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 12:40 am:

Jack at $400 it is a bargain. With all the time u save not changing timers not cleaning timers not adjusting coils you have plenty of time to polish brass & make coffee.
sk


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 01:25 am:

Kep, All E-Timers are capable of operating solely on magneto power using a small power converter as was demonstrated and reported in this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/368729.html


Jim, The E-Timer does monitor engine temperature. The Automatic Timing Advance (ATA) feature uses several variables including engine RPM.

As I have always said, the best timer to use is the one you choose to use and enjoy using. For some folks who don't enjoy the hassle of coil point adjustment, messy timer maintenance or have a functioning magneto, that's the E-Timer. For other folks who posses the knowledge, skills, tools, enjoy the challenge of coil point adjustment, don't mind timer maintenance every 500 miles and appreciate the electromechanical marvel of the original ignition system, that is a stock timer. There are no modifications to the car or wiring so folks who choose to use the E-Timer can always switch back to the stock system at any time in just a few minutes. There is room in the hobby for both camps. It is very unfortunate the polarization the E-Timer has caused within the hobby; especially considering the number of other modern improvements commonly used, many of which are blatantly obvious, the E-Timer is not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 06:31 am:

"As I have always said, the best timer to use is the one you choose to use and enjoy using."

Mike, that right there should be the be all end all to the debate. I didn't post on here for a long time because when the E-timer came out every other thread on here was about it and just became a pissing match.

We all have opinions, but in my opinion, this is just beating a dead horse.

And in case anyone cares, I have coils and an Anderson in mine. Doesn't mean down the road I wouldn't try something else though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 06:54 am:

How much extra does it cost to buy the power converter? We are already over $400 for the E Timer. You could have a dozen or more good spare timers for that money, although I normally try to stay under $5 each.

Here's an item I wish someone would reproduce. I would be glad to buy one for $250 if anyone has a spare:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 07:01 am:

I doubt that you could rebuild the mag, coils, and timer for any where close to 400.00. This is a wonderful solution if you choose not to do mag timer and coils. I wish the naysayers would quit high jacking the thread. If there was a separate TW timer thread it would be better. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 07:16 am:

500 miles? Mike, I was gonna stay out of this this time, but that is just BULL$#!T! Sell your timer on it's own merits and quit maligning the original system!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 07:27 am:

I can't believe all the hoopla about the E-Timer. With all the Model T modification's that are out there. Many of them are extremely visible, no one says boo. Along comes the E-Timer, that whens its on the car only the owner knows. So, what's the big deal? My personal preference is the original Ford system. If you're talking costs, restoring a complete Ford system, will cost you close or in some cases more. It cost me $750.00 for my original 13, that's just the coils. I didn't need magnets charged or the ring rewound.
If I bought a T that didn't need an engine rebuild, and I couldn't get the mag working, I would put an E-Timer on it before I pulled the engine out, and take it apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 08:19 am:

I really don't need to get in anymore peeing contests, but regarding Mike's comment "don't mind timer maintenance every 500 miles,", this is what the online Ford Service Course says (posted by Hap on another thread not related to this thread):



Link: http://mtfca.com/books/Course.htm

I don't know if the service manual means to take off the timer or just oil from the outside. It also says "thoroughly cleaned out at frequent intervals." I don't know if they (service man writers) mean more or less frequently clean out than oil? I certainly don't follow the service manual advice, but then again I'm currently using an Anderson timer on our 13.

Of course, it seems most of the forum members who take issue with the e-timer are using reproduction aftermarket timers such as TW and Anderson.

Wait a minute, reproduction? After market? Aren't these timers "non Ford" non period upgrades using modern materials and insulation?

Never mind, I'll go back to fighting my own windmills.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 08:27 am:

Hal, I take exception to your accusation. The timer maintenance interval reference I cited is based on research done including on this forum.

Clean and oil every 200 Miles (Daily)
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/157650.html?1283254889

Clean every 100 miles
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/370318.html?1372440230

Reference to the Ford manual directing timer cleaning every 200 Miles
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/30806.html?1181838899

The need to lubricate the timer at least every 200 Miles in order to have a smooth operating engine. - The Ford Manual; Answer 102
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ford_Manual/The_Ford_Lubricating_System

Need to lubricate the timer every other day
http://lone-star-ts.com/DripPan/Book/Lubrication.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 08:42 am:

That is for oil in a roller timer. I know no one who does that. Our car gets driven practically every weekend and seldom less than 100 miles. The timer has not been off of it in well over a year. I stand by my statement. I don't understand why you feel the need to resort to statements like that to sell your timer. It's not a bad product for those who don't mind computer electronics on their antique car. Let it sell itself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 10:31 am:

Hal, and I stand by my statement regarding your accusation that I am maligning the ORIGINAL system. Here is a direct quote from the Ford Manual:


"Keeping the commutator well oiled is a matter of far greater importance than many drivers believe, and is necessary in order to have a smooth operating engine. Don't be afraid to put a little oil into the commutator every other day—at least every 200 miles. Remember that the commutator roller revolves very rapidly, and without sufficient lubrication the parts soon become badly worn. When in this condition perfect contact between the roller and the four contact points is impossible, as a result the engine is apt to misfire when running at a good rate of speed."

Following these manufacturers instructions are seldom done as you yourself openly admit. The consequence of failure to adhere to these instructions is also clearly stated by the manufacturer, not me. May I suggest you take your disagreement up with the manufacturer and take a little more effort to do some basic research before maligning others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 11:51 am:

I'm not going to argue with you Mike. If you can't see that that was before someone figured out you could fill it full of grease, or better yet, use another design mechanical timer that needed little to no maintenance for THOUSANDS of miles, then that is your problem. Keep doin' what you're doin'. I'm done with the whole friggin' deal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 02:55 pm:

Bye Hal!!! See ya Jack!!! Royce, well he'll never go away re: this great product. I'm glad production began again as it seems there are quite a few who were hoping so. Just wish we still owned T's. I'd be on the bandwagon! FWIW, I have feelers out for any T remains here in Ecuador.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 03:40 pm:

Gary, any T you find there might be shrunken, like the Jivaros did with human heads. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 03:49 pm:

LOL Mr. Ricks :-)I'll take a doodle bug :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 05:02 pm:

The timer Hal is but once piece of a system in which any problem can reduce efficiency of operation. I'm certainly not speaking for Mike, but the beauty of the E-Timer is that it eliminates the misadjustment of contacts (new or old) that is needed for proper single spark operation. For those who complain about solid-state electronics in a Model T, go drive yours and enjoy it until your cutout wrecks your genny ... then peel off $300 for a replacement.

Seems to me the only people who complained about the voltage regulator were the loudmouth tractor morons who figured the difference between positive and negative grounds is nothing but BS. They did their best to malign the product though.

Same thing here, except the real reason for the whining and snivelling is the price, as has been already been daylited in past threads. If it was priced at $7.99 some folk would still whine that it's too pricey. Instead of saying so, they just defer to the Holy heart-and-soul nonsense. I'm sure it's the same crowd that expects free coffee refills all morning long at the local coffeshop day after day instead of paying for what they consume.

You can't go into business and finance R&D and then sell your products at a loss (well actually you can in Canada - farming seems to be the one exception where the person shouldering 100 percent of the risk of producing and bringing a product to market isn't rewarded for that risk - and that is truly shameful).

I have to give thanks though for the entertainment - it brings one to wonder of the old days and reading by the reddish hue of a fire.

Regards all,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 06:52 pm:

Some of us do have a Model T "to wonder of the old days." I don't really see why else to have one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 07:42 pm:

For the entertainment, if not the edification, of both sides:

(Sung to the tune of "The Ballad of Jed Clampett")

Come an’ lissen to my story ‘bout s Good Ol’ Boy named Joe.
Bought hisself a E-Timer t’ make his T really go.
‘Cause he couldn’t set coil points to save his own hide
Though he loved his ol’ T, drove it far and drove it wide.

Wall he put on that new timer and it made her really hum
But them nasty Kias passin’ made him feel jus’ like a bum.
So he said ‘bout that timer, “Wall Joe, why stop there?
Les’ drop in a Pinto engine; leave them Kias’ suckin’ air.”

So thas’ just whut Ol’ Joe done, an’ he passed ’em day and night,
His ol’ eyes they got to glowin’, that boy surely was a sight.
It got them gears a-turning way up in his fevered brain,
Got him trashin’ all his T parts, looked like Joe had gone insane.

He took off his wooden wheels, an’ put on a set a’ slicks;
Ripped out that planetary; said “No more of ya tricks!”
He threw out his E & Js and his Holley NH too,
Put on a set ’a sealed beams and a fuel-inject-a roo.

Wall now Joe wus really goin,’ all the old parts bit the dust,
Replacin’ all the steel, ‘cause alum’num wouldn’t rust.
The last old thing to go was the left-hand runnin’ board,
Now Joe, he’s got a new car, and it ain’t no more a Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Markham on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 08:39 pm:

Just let me know when one will be available and I'm in, I hope it is soon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

Quote Garnet: "the beauty of the E-Timer is that it eliminates the misadjustment of contacts"

No idea what you are talking about. Timers don't have adjustable contacts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 11:11 pm:

Contacts on the coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 11:37 pm:

Mike Kossor stated:

"As I have always said, the best timer to use is the one you choose to use and enjoy using. "

Sounds like a reasonable assessment of the issue. Let's quit all the bitching and bragging about this or that timer and let each person buy what he likes,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Wednesday, July 30, 2014 - 11:51 pm:

OK, I can't see the line. The my way or the highway guys propose that we should only use original timers. Is this where the line is? The vendors sell an assortment of timers that are poor copies of original timers. Is this where the line is? Next there is a choice of well built timers that are sort of what Henry built back in the day. They will last for a couple of thousand miles with minimal care. Not original but close. Is this where the line is? One would pay $250.00 for a timer elevator that was an accessory not approved by Henry. Not original but a good idea. I have one. Is this where the line is? Some of us have added a distributor and it could have centrifugal and/or vacuum advance. Again not original but this system works very well. Is this where the line is? The next projection would be a Pertronix (SP) electronic ignition added to the distributor. Is this the line? Now there is an choice of a fully electronic system that uses the latest technology. Some would firmly put the line here without ever using one.
I have posted this before, but 35 some odd years age when I first got into T's I KNEW that a T would not run well on the original system and had to have a distributor to be reliable. I was wrong! I now know that the original system is just about fool proof IF the owner of the car has the time to invest to understand it.
That being said I think that anything that puts a T back on the road is a good thing. I don't give a rats ass what you use to fire the plug. My hope is that the new T owner will be so excited to have his car on the road that they will become long term members of the hobby and then will invest the time to learn more about the car. If an e-timer gets a T back on the road I applaud it!
I sort of want to buy a e-timer just to see how it works. The fact that someone that puts as many miles a year on a T as Dean Yoder does should be your first clue that it merits real discussion. YMMV.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 12:00 am:

Ugg. I should proof read before posting.."but 35 some odd years age" should read as "but 35 some odd years ago"...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 12:15 am:

Speaking of timers, Here's a link to a thread on the MTFCI Forum that I have put together of original Model T period accessory timer photos some with original boxes, instructions, Old ads and related data.

http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/forumdisplay.php/2-MTFCI-General-Discussion-Forum/ page2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 02:28 am:

My T was the perfect donor for an E timer. I broke the crank in my original engine. I had another one rebuilt which I had put aside for a speedster project. It had no flywheel magneto installed and was going to be run with a distributor. To keep me running I chose the E timer instead of a distributor. At the time the price difference was about $30. The E timer enabled me to keep everything related to the coils and timer in place and needed no fabrication of linkages etc. Still looked like the original system. No one was ever able to tell unless I told them. The biggest bonus was the increase in performance of the car. I have since sold the car but the E timer remains in my spares, just in case I have a magneto failure. At the moment my Touring is running on coils and a TW timer. I am pleased that the E timer is available again and I can get another or spares if ever required. It is a very unique timer and I really enjoyed driving with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 07:39 am:

Gary,

I didn't mean to imply I was going away. I just meant I was done discussing this topic. Sorry you feel that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 08:34 am:

Why can't we all just get along, I am glad there are those that are doing things to keep our T's going. I am not one for a lot of after market products for my car, however I do see the need for such. The price can be argued but how many folks here actually re work their own mag and rebuild their own engine and such? If one is on a limited budget, which I always am, I can see the e timer as being the way to get on the road again with out spending a ton of money. I may look at one down the road for a speedster project I have in mind. Really I don't care what anyone thinks about my car and what I do with it, after all it is mine and the e timer is an inconspicuous part. I may or may not ever use one, but like everyone here that is my choice and shouldn't have to suffer being bashed. Go for it Mike! KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 09:17 am:

I'll say this: I don't know how many were sold originally but 2 things seem clear 1, (unless their not saying) none of these units have failed so far and 2, the people that have them seem quite satisfied. The demand must be there for production to have resumed. Any one know how many are out there? Just wondering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 09:26 am:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/382548.html?1377118056


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 01:01 pm:

I bought one of the first E-timers and tried it on one of my T's. Although it did everything it was supposed to, I wound up not permanently installing it on any of my T's. It sits on the shelf to this day. So it might seem strange that someone who doesn't even use an E-timer would choose to use his money to back the next production run of E-timers, but such is the case. Why would a non-user risk his money and waste his labor on something that he doesn't even use? Actually I had many reasons for wanting to do it, and apparently they were good enough to convince my partner Hutch to go along with the idea. One of things that I wanted to do was to lower the price. It was my belief that the chief objection with the E-timer was not in fact that it incorporated modern technology, but rather that the price seemed too high. Modern technology is used extensively in the rebuilding and restoration of T's. Everything from Bondo to Kevlar head gaskets to silicone rubber to electronic voltage regulators (to name a few) are used with little or no backlash. But alas, after getting into the project I decided that there wasn't much room to lower the price. The electronic boards are not just slammed out with generic components, in fact they are populated with expensive, high quality OEM parts that have no practical economy of scale. Not that we are producing them on any grand scale. Even if we made millions of units rather than hundreds, Hutch and I would still be spending Sunday afternoons assembling these things (unless we outsourced overseas or something).

One thing has become clear since we announced the new production. We have made many people very happy. They have told us so in explicit terms. What can be wrong with making people happy when you are not hurting anyone? The negative comments, which I consider largely groundless, do hurt I must confess, especially coming from people that I consider my friends, but they have a right to their opinion and I except it. It was to be expected. So why does a non-user choose to make something he doesn't use? Because E-timers are not for me - they are for other folks. Some have good reasons for wanting them, some not so much, but in the end, it is their car and I think they should be allowed to use the timer that they desire - especially if it makes them happy. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, July 31, 2014 - 01:34 pm:

Think of the e-timer as a modern replacement for the magneto, that unmaintainable mechanical kluge. No other car had one on the flywheel - for good reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 07:50 am:

Again Ralph, I must disagree with your completely untrue attack on the Model T ignition system. A Model T factory ignition system lasted at least a hundred of thousand miles when new provided you maintained it with a cleaning and lube of the timer every so often. It was the most reliable ignition system on any car of its time. The Model T was the most reliable car of its time.

We are here to celebrate the Model T - if you attack it, I will defend it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 09:53 am:

Thinking out loud, wonder why Ford used a Bosch dual ignition external drive magneto on their 1910-1912 Ford "Special" racer that won numerous races and hill climbs?

The mag is encased under the cover to the right of the steering wheel:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 10:00 am:

The buzz coils were obsolescent by 1908, but that's ok. It allowed Henry to avoid royalties on the Atwater-Kent ignition, which was clearly superior.

Henry must have agonized over the cost to produce the Model T flywheel magneto. Just like six cylinders in the Model K, there never was another Ford built with a flywheel magneto in his lifetime.

The A-K ignition system made the flywheel magneto superfluous.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 10:04 am:

Rob, there is an era article in the Fast Ford Handbook subtitled, "Ford Steady by Jerks Ignition."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 10:15 am:

Rob

Could answer that IMO.

Ford was building a racer, and not much cost consideration needed.

The high tension magneto provided direct spark, with the drive apparatus and mechanical functions.

That alone saved weight in a racer, and facilitated the need for speed.

But, as noted, that high tension magneto is protected from racing environment by that noted cover on the floorboard. A high tension magneto is highly affected by adverse conditions that mess up the internals.



High tension magneto with lots of internal bearing and parts to keep lubed and in tune to make the spark.

Ford of course made the flywheel low tension magneto simple, no small moving parts or bearings, mounted within the engine for protection, provide a constant flow of self-generating juice. That proved itself over 15 million times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 10:25 am:

Dan,

Thanks for the explanation. No doubt the T mag was a good choice for T (at least as of 1909). We are in the process of restoring the Ford (Huff) patented external mag on the Model K. I agree, it has a number of "switches" and moving parts that probably made it complicated to maintain and expensive to build. Ford did own the patent to it, so royalties may not have as much of a factor to HF as we think?

When it's operational (close) we'll compare
The output to the Bosch mag on the K now and with a stock T mag.

Ralph, always a pleasure to see your posts. Have a good day,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 10:34 am:

There are a number of things on a T like the flywheel mag that make it a T but no other car company tried to duplicate or alter to get around patents. Ever wonder why? Like why re-design a flywheel mag & coils when I can just use a distributor type system. Not knocking it as these items do make up a T but no body else thought enough of this system to use it too. When it worked it was fine but lets say the mag went bad. It was cheaper and less work to install an after market distributor system than pulling the whole thing down to repair it and a lot of people did just that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 11:09 am:

"Ford of course made the flywheel low tension magneto simple, no small moving parts or bearings, mounted within the engine for protection, provide a constant flow of self-generating juice. That proved itself over 15 million times..."

The number of critical fasteners and other small parts needed just to keep the magnets from flailing at your feet are a significant percentage the number of fasteners in the rest of the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Friday, August 01, 2014 - 11:31 am:

When fourteen magnets and spools come through the side of the hogshead, you will take notice. An e-timer would be great.btdt

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 10:01 am:

According to the E Timer seller's statement above you have to have the magneto working in order to power the extra cost adapter that provides power to the $400 + E timer. So Rick, I don't see how an E timer can prevent a catastrophe such as the one you suggest when in fact the E Timer seller says it has to be there to power the extra cost device.

One should also bear in mind that when magnets come through the side of the engine it is a very rare event typically caused by failure to use good maintenance practices when rebuilding the transmission / magneto / engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Utz on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 10:48 am:

Instead of carrying spare timer parts, you can carry a couple of spare 9v batteries and get home on the e-timmer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Utz on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 11:21 am:

Instead of carrying spare timer parts, you can carry a couple of spare 9v batteries and get home on the e-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 04:50 pm:

Yes Bob, I think a T was driven about 100 miles on a single 9V transistor battery. I might have the distance slightly off but it was amazing!

Royce, No mag required. That is really the beauty of the E thing because it allows one to keep the original look of the T going on the road even when the mag is not functional.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 05:06 pm:

So what powers it if not the magneto? I own several Model T's. No Model T of mine has ever had a charging system. I guess you are saying I have to buy a later model T engine so I can install a generator to power an e timer??????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 05:29 pm:

Why couldn't a "Fun Projects" type charger be used to charge a battery.

I'm running my coils and timer off a 12v MC battery under the seat in my coupe cause my mag went south.
Eventually I will pull the engine and repair the mag.

I also appreciate Tom and Hutch starting up production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 05:37 pm:

Royce, aren't any of your cars wired for a battery?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 05:42 pm:

Ralph,

Of course they are. I use a battery to run headlights and brake lights at night. I keep a spare timer under the seat too. A spare timer costs $5 typically. I've never needed one, but I did give one to a guy on tour who had a repro New Day timer that ate itself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 07:56 pm:

Royce,
I'm confused (not unusual). On another thread you wrote the following regarding a different ignition system:

"If I wanted a better ignition system on a Model T (or any car) I would simply install a modern high performance capacitive discharge system such as an MSD-7AL with a crank trigger. I have done exactly this on my 1967 Mercury Cougar which is powered by a 500+ horsepower bored / stroked 427.

This type of high power ignition does not increase horsepower. It improves cold engine performance in a modified engine like mine. It improves the idle quality with the radical camshaft profile. It allows me to set timing on individual cylinders. It has a rev limiter to prevent engine damage in the event of a midssed shift. I also can install a "valet chip" that limits RPM to 2500 when the car is being driven by the mechanic at the tire store or alignment shop. "




I'm not concerned (not that it would or should matter) that you have a 67 Cougar with a 427, but I am curious about your "high performance capacative discharge system." I assume this is some sort of electronic ignition. If one were made specifically for the Model T, would you consider using it? What advantages does it provide for you Cougar, and could the same benefits apply to a Model T?

This seems a bit "selective" if it's OK for one Ford (in this case your Cougar, albiet it is powered with a Chebby engine), and not OK to use advanced/modern electronic ignition with a Model T.

To satisfy my curiosity, can you tell us why a capacitive system? Could one be applied to early cars, or wouldn't there be any advantage?

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 08:06 pm:

Just to keep you guys grounded, I am here to tell you that while I like a good potato salad, I don't really care for egg salad sandwiches. Thanks. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

Did you say e-salad sandwiches? EGAD!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 09:03 pm:

Ford did build a 427 cubic inch version of its FE engine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 09:46 pm:

Now we know what constitutes a perpetual motion machine,looks like we have two: E-Timer and Model K Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 10:02 pm:

Ted,
Seems you are tired of the Model K and E-timer threads. I'll be sure to begin threads as OT if /when I begin another, as I have in the past. Meanwhile, I'm sure there are other threads you will approve of and participate in.
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, August 02, 2014 - 11:56 pm:

Gene Carrothers:

I experimented, at the request of Mike Kossor, running the E-Timer ignition on a 9 volt transistor size battery. I'm sure someone will search the archives, as memory serves I believe the engine ran without problem for about 1.5 hours before noticeable running changes. Used a premium Duracel battery. I disconnected the wire from the magneto and used alligator clips connecting the mag wire and a ground wire for the 9 volt battery run test,,,,, using the dash mounted ignition switch in the magneto position, this way when the 9 volt battery ran down, the dash mounted ignition switch was turned to the regular car battery/generator side to continue without interruption . Also a analog volt meter was used to note battery voltage drop as time & miles elapsed. Interesting experiment.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 12:18 am:

Bob, any idea how many miles the 9V bat was good for? Thanks for the recollection.

Royce, Come on Now, I sure you have heard of the charging systems that are available like Kirk mentioned. This is what we all have on our early cars that have none of that new fangled electronic stuff like starters and generators!

My Mag charges my 12V bat thru a diode and a light bulb to regulate the voltage. Never have had a dead bat even after long night drives and lots of brake lights burning and high powered head lights.

They're available at the vendors and a great way for non electric cars to power all your electronic stuff, Even an ETimer will work!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 05:03 am:

Gene and Bob,

I believe this is the "9 volt" thread. Interesting thread from 1912 (I recall reading it then) with many of the same contributors, and non-contributors:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/301342.html?1343105646

Mark,

So possibly Royce's Mercury has a stock engine? If so, I'm still curious about a "discharge" ignition system. Did Ford offer one during that period (or now for that matter)? Is it a type of electronic ignition? Anything like the e-timer?

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 05:23 am:

Rob,

Am I one of the non-contributors in that thread?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 05:40 am:

Hal,

While I doubt my opinion matters, I did go back to read your post (that in itself tells me I didn't have an opinion one way or another). It seems to me that you were simply saying you are a purist in that you enjoy restoring and driving a car as it was built. Does that catch your thoughts for the most part? If you are unable to determine who I think are some of the same irritants then and now, send me a p.m. and I'll point them out.

I didn't believe any proponents of the e-timer have suggesting throwing away the original mag system and replacing it with modern components. It is just another option for those trying to drive and enjoy their cars on the road. I wish one were available for our Model N , that has a timer/coil (reaching the timer is a nightmare) and runs on battery alone.

I don't know if the True-Fire system received this type of reception on this forum, but if it did, I don't recall it.

My 2 cents,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 08:06 am:

Rob, I put a true-fire in my car and commented on it on this forum, and it was immediately bashed by them people that are bashing the E-Timer. I have successfully used two true-fire systems in my two cars for the last 7 or 8 years and am completely satisfied with them. I have never bashed the original system but have been flamed a lot on the true-fire. I post here seldom because I don't care for the culture here. I do enjoy and drive my Ts a lot. I drive my cars almost daily and have racked up thousands of mile with the true-fire. I have also ordered a new e-timer. I like to drive my cars not spend a lot of time servicing the timer and coils. I get satisfaction out of driving my car without coils and timers and can see no difference in the experience. Best Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 08:14 am:

Rob Heyen:

Thanks for your research on the earlier E-Timer - 9 volt battery thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 08:34 am:

Michael, Don't let some here put you off, there are plenty of folks here that value your input and like to hear about your cars. Not everyone is going to agree all the time about every thing, I ignore what I don't want to hear as I'm sure everyone else does. This is still a good place to learn a lot of different things and when you don't comment, then you are shorting some of us who care about your input. All in all this is a great bunch of guys here. At least it's not like listening to my wife who I can't escape! Here I can skip to another topic. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 08:49 am:

Rob,

Yes, your opinion does matter to me. And yes, your assessment of my thoughts are dead on. Thank you for your honest response.

All,

I don't want to get back into another E-Timer argument, but I would like to ask those who are proponents of the E-Timer to open mindedly read the posts of those they brand as E-Timer 'bashers' and determine whether what that person said is indeed 'bashing' the E-Timer, or were they merely defending the original system? There is no shortage of those who will post negative comments about the original ignition system. And it is not uncommon for purist ideals to be mocked, but those that say these things don't seem to get the reputation for being 'negative', like someone who isn't a fan of the E-Timer. So I ask you once again, please try to discern the difference between "bashing' the E-Timer and defending the oft maligned original system before throwing someone into the "E-Timer Basher" category.

Thank you,

Hal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 08:50 am:

Always great fun to read any post that has etimer or oil in the heading !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 09:58 am:

Ford / Mercury offered the 427 high performance engine in their products from 1963 - 1968. In 1968 no other Ford product received the 427 side oiler engine. There were no Shelbys, no Fairlanes, no Mustangs, or anything else factory equipped with a 427 that year.

The 427 is the most famous Ford racing engine of the 1960's. It won Lemans a few times in the GT40, set SCCA records in the 1965 - 66 427 Cobra, and Dan Gurney used it to win the Riverside Nascar race three years in a row. Richard Petty, Don "The Snake" Prudhomme, "Sneaky Pete" Robinson, Wayne Gapp, Jack Roush and Don Nicholson all became household names because of their success with the 427 Ford engine.


Dan Gurney at Riverside in a 1965 427 Galaxie


Dan Gurney and Carroll Shelby with the LeMans winning 1967 427 GT40MKIV


Don Nicholson 1968 427 Mercury Cougar


Richard Petty, 1969 427 Fairlane Cobra

Getting back to the 427 Cougar GT-E, the car was produced in order to homologate the 427 engine for the 1968 racing season. Nascar and NHRA each had a minimum requirement of 500 examples of a particular car be built in order to qualify as a "stock" car for sanctioning rule requirements to be met. Henry Ford II decreed that the 427 engine would be used in Mercury's pony car, which at the time was his pet project. Ford / Mercury announced that the 427 would be produced in the Mustang, Shelby, Fairlane, Cobra, Comet, Torino, Cyclone, Cougar, and full sized Ford and Mercury products for 1968.

As is typical of Ford, the media was lied to, the sanctioning bodies were lied to, and a lot of misleading and completely untrue documents were produced to cover up the story. A total of 357 Cougars were built with the 427 side oiler, less than the required number. Phony paperwork was circulated showing the Cougar was to be entered in FIA sanctioned events for 1968 (LeMans, etc). Fake brochures showing the 427 was available in other Ford and Mercury models were printed. Advertisements were placed in every magazine and newspaper in the country proclaiming the 427 would be available in all the other Ford and Mercury products. Again, typical Ford Motor Company deception and deceit.

In the case of my addiction to these cars, I have owned three of the 357, and currently own two. Shelby produced a line of high performance items to hop these cars up that were sold over the counter at your local Mercury dealer when the cars were new.

Shelby Cougar catalog page 1968
I was able to find the Shelby 8V carburetion setup, the matching air cleaner, valve covers, and added a set of reproduction exhaust headers plus a set of Edelbrock aluminum cylinder heads. Here's the way the engine compartment looked in 1994:


Capacitive discharge ignitions were developed in the 1960's and sold over the counter at speed shops under such brand names as Cragar and Hays. The Hays Stinger CD system was probably the most popular of the era, but there were many other brands. You could even build your own CCD ignition with a Heatkit from Radio Shack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 10:17 am:

Wow, incredible cars! Much as we disagree, I am impressed with the car, and your willingness to share about it. Is the "CDI"(?) an electronic ignition (not a trick question, I have no concerns about changing/upgrading systems)?

I don't have a high performance background, does this type of ignition get better results? Is it in any similar to electronic ignition (predecessor?) or True Fire or E timers?

Thanks, off to church (in a K no less, pray for us :-)),

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 10:58 am:

The capacitive discharge type ignition allows use of a higher power ignition coil. Originally they were developed to allow a points type distributor to function as the "trigger" for the spark event. The CD ignition steps up battery voltage to the coil. Current supplied to the coil with an MSD 7 system is on the order of 10 amps at 30 volts. This amount of power would quickly ruin a set of breaker points.

This sort of ignition is necessary to avoid fouling plugs when the car has a wild camshaft and multiple carburetors. Performance engines in the 1960's were engineering compromises. You either upgraded the ignition or changed lots of plugs.

One thing to remember, there is no free lunch. A Model T electrical system doesn't put out enough wattage to operate this sort of system. And of course there is no need for anything to be improved on a stock Model T. The Model T ignition system is reliable as hell. Plugs in a Model T never foul unless there is something not screwed together properly.

In the case of my Cougar GT-E, I ended up removing all the non original stuff about 10 years ago so I could participate in the Factory Stock Muscle Car drag racing series. The car was very successful on several occasions. Here are a couple videos I found online:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtubr+cougar+427+drag+race+vette&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=FD46715CAA860AB480FCFD46715CAA860AB480FC

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtubr+cougar+427+drag+race&qs=n&form=QBVR&pq=youtubr+cougar+427+drag+race&sc=1-28&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&mid=E2972E3BF6681F01F56FE2972E3BF6681F01F56F

Here is the engine compartment as it looks today, all back to original configuration complete with smog pump and exhaust manifolds:


This car has been featured in magazine articles, has won best of show at car shows, and was featured on the TV show American Muscle Car. It was rented by Johnny Lightning as the basis for a HO scale model, photographed for a set of automotive trading cards sold in Europe, featured on muscle car calendars, and it appears on a muscle car wall clock sold in Wal Mart and CVS pharmacies.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 12:31 pm:

Rob, the model N timer is next to the transmission, isn't it?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 12:57 pm:

Stephen,
Yes, almost impossible to service, and one must disconnect the rear end, brake rods, raise the body and frame and slide back the diff/torque tube a few inches to remove the timer. What a hassle!
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 01:03 pm:

Royce, impressive car! Did the CDI cure fouled plug problems? Does it provide a hotter, or more accurate spark? It seems it would have been an asset to poor carburation cars of the pre teens. (Early 1900's). A y idea if this type ignition existed before the sixties?

Thanks again for the "modern" education,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, August 03, 2014 - 01:34 pm:

Capacitive discharge systems like the one I installed use the original points to trigger the system. So they are not any more or less accurate than the points. MSD offers a crank triggered version which is much more accurate. Learn more here:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand/MSD-Ignition

The spark is hotter, making the plug basically impossible to foul, no matter how crazy the cam timing is or how rich the mixture is.

Ford first offered Capacitive Discharge ignition on the 1964 Thunderbirds. It was called "Transistorized ignition" and was also optional on some full sized Fords.

It may have existed earlier than that on some other brand of car or perhaps on some foreign car of some sort. I only know what I know.


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