I happened to notice my back tire on my '17 Roadster looks like it has been cut by the demountable rim. Take a peek and see if this is what you see as well? I bought the car with these tires on them...maybe my tires are getting too old?
I can not see the edge of the rim in those pictures. Often rust eats away the edge of the rim leaving a knife sharp edge which will cut a tire. If it is only the edge damaged, sometimes a grinder can be used to reshape the edge to a smooth flat surface.
If the rust goes to far into the rim, replacement is sometime the only choice.
Thanks Willie- I just wanted to show this to see if this is unsafe? I don't want to be on the road and have my tire slide off and demount itself. I haven't had this issue with a T before.
I would definitely pull that rim and take the tire off to see what's going on. I can't tell if that's a cut or not but much easier to check out at home than out on the road after you just went into the ditch cause you lost a tire.
Looks like sharp rims to me, but you really can't tell with the tires on. Here's what a sharp rim did for me.
I found the tube right away, but the tire rolled away and disappeared in a wheat field. I phoned the farmer and warned him, and he found it when he cut the wheat.
Yikes, thanks- that tire is coming off! That's kinda what I thought. Just wanted to check to be safe. Thanks fellers!
I've been surprised several times over the years by tires that I was sure were good enough to be my spares for years--always held good air pressure and no visible defects. Then, I'd take them off the rim, usually to mount one I found that matched the rest of a set, only to find out, the rim had rusted so badly I'd never consider using it. If I were you, I'd take the valve stem out and squeeze the tire together and see if you can get it to release from the rim and check things out. You may find out the tire and rim have "become one"
While a thin rusted rim will cut the bead of a tire, it happens most of the time when the tire is under inflated allowing the tire to move on the rim.
I have learned over the years to keep my tires inflated to the maximum eliminating the rim cut. This also keeps the tire from moving around on the rim and damaging the stem of the tube. Most stem problems are caused by under inflated tires.
I have chucked up rims in my big lathe and cut the sharp edges away. Then using a wire feed welder adding material to the edge. Then profile the weld. Of course the rim work was not done on model t rims, mostly bigger cars and harder to find rims.
I pulled it off and sure enough the tire now had two beads; one from the cut and the original one....not good. So I am swapping my spare with it. Now I need to search for some better tires, maybe I can find some good used ones for a spare or two.
you need a rim, not a tire
The TIRE might be the problem. There was a run of tires made 20-30 years ago (I think) that would separate at the clincher bead. One of the brands affected was Firestone. I bought a pair of wheels at Bakersfield a couple of years ago and one of the tires had this issue. The fabric of the cord looked like it pulled loose (not cut)so 1/2 to 1" pieces of cord were showing at the separation. The wheel was fine with no sharp edges, rust pits, dents or any signs of being driven on without a tire on the rim.
James, you mention two beads. Does that mean there is a worn/cut groove part way up the sidewall above the usual bead?
Allan from down under.
Here is a website showing another member's method of dressing down the sharp edges on his rims:
One correction to Tony's page: Rims are galvanized, not cadmium plated.
I had an unusual number of tire failures one year on my speedster. I ended up rim cutting 7 Firestones like the one you showed. All happened at higher speeds without flaps and 40 Lbs pressure.
I now use flaps and more pressure and lower speeds. No flats lately. I have been using those rim cut tires on a car around town for several years with no further failure from the rim cuts.
Of the 16 or so Firestones I have there are at least 4 different versions. The thickness of the sidewall and inside finish varies. I assume they knew there was a problem and were experimenting. Or it varied from production run to run.
No major problem with the other brands I have used over 50 years. The Firestones and Riversides I bought in the 60's are still sound.
Once I got the tire off- here is what I have found, it sounds exactly like what "brass car guy" and the image Nevin had posted, and the date is just about right for these Firestones.
P.S. the ribs on the inside of the above photos are what my problem Firestones had.
Rich, so your success came at higher pressure (50-55lbs) and you continued to use the same tires?
never run 40 lbs in high pressure 30 x 3 1/2 tires, 55-60 w/flaps and you won't cut the tires unless your rims are sharp, luckily new ones are made today, pricey yes but so are tires
Grinding and sanding sharp edges back is just not a good idea. You need that metal you are grinding off. Better is welding wire around the edge to reconstruct the edge. Best is investing in new rims.
James, your tyres look like they have never been seated properly in the rim. The bead has not been pushed firmly home in the rim lip, and has worn that second groove above the proper seat.
I have seen this before, and am convinced it has to do with running flaps in the tyres. The flaps are so wide they extend half way up the sidewall of the tyre. As the tube is aired up and exerts pressure on the sidewall the flap prevents the tyre being pushed into the rim seat. If a liberal dose of tyre lubricant is used when fitting, the tyre may seat properly. It is always advisable to air up tyres a couple of times when fitting, and make sure they are seated. The Firestones you have, have a moulding line around them near the bead which will indicate whether the tyre is properly seated. If you can't see that line all the way around, the tyre is not properly seated in the rim.
The real answer is to delete the unnecessary flap and use a rim liner.
Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.
My tires didn't have flaps- just some duct tape to keep from cutting the tubes.
Put in flaps. Duct tape will do you no good unless you put it directly on the rim. But, I still wouldn't do it. If you use a flap, there is no need for a rim liner, unless your rim is too rusty, and then, I would suggest replacing the rim.
there was much talk about flap or no flap a few years back, and many folks thought that due to the bad tubes they sell us now, its a good idea to use flaps to try to save your older, better, no longer available tubes have a long and happy life. thats what i do now, flaps cost more but if it helps, i'm for it. like the other thread going right now, i have had new tubes crack sitting on the shelf about a year. so, use your old ones if they are good, and dont plan on storing a new one folded up
Looks like they've been run with low pressure to me, and the rim ate away at the sidewall just above the bead, as someone else stated above. 55-60lbs is where you have to be with these, if not you will surly experience tire failure....
I put 5-10 lbs of air pressure in mine when mounting them and bounce or hammer the tire onto the beads, to ensure they seat. Then take them yo max pressure. 55-60lbs
I think flaps were designed by people with greater knowledge about such things than most of us.
No matter how hard you try if the wheel rim is steel it will rust and the tube is going to be affected by it. If you think about tubeless tires and also the use of aluminium wheels both types do not have problems with rust. Yes they didn't have them originally but years down the track they found out a steel rim was producing a rust problem.
Tape around the rim is only a half fix as often when the tire is mounted the tape can be moved by the tire and bunch up stopping the tire seating properly and helping cut the tube. A flap is a better option.
In the 1970's I purchased brand new non demountable wheels from the Vintage wheel shop in California. They arrived needing painting as both rim and timber were bare.
Some 30 years later I removed a tire to find the rim which had been painted properly with automotive grade paint had inside it flaking paint and loose rust.
Over the years from driving in wet conditions and washing the car, water had got inside the tire ( and it can easily around the valve hole) it had penetrated the paint which it does if it is left and unable to dry out as the rubber works like a wet rag and keeps it there.
The end result is paint which has flaked of the rim and rust flakes.
This picture shows the result, the amount of loose rust, paint etc was about a heaped hand full.
Tires left on a steel rim will rust badly, several times it has been mentioned by members to never buy a rim or wheel which has a tire mounted on it as you can not tell the condition of the rim. More often than not when the tire is removed the rim is found to be rusted beyond repair.
Nevin Gough's advice also is spot on.
I remember spending one day on a tour traveling in a T which the owner had ground back a beaded rim so far we kept loosing the tire off it. Like Steve Jeff several of us spent over a 1/2 hour searching one time for the tire in long grass,( Remember that John Regan) being a wood felloe wheel borrowing another rim was not an option for the owner , spoiled his weeks tour.
Paint has no place on rims. That is why they are plated. If a rim is sandblasted and zinc plated, there will be nothing to flake off. The other thing to do, is keep your tire pressure up there. I never let mine go below 50 lbs. There is little chance of water getting in there with that much pressure, although it probably could. I've driven through rivers, and never had a problem. On my '13s, the rims are painted, but I still sandblasted the rims, and still don't have a problem with them either.
Larry, you missed the point! non demountable wheels did not have zinc plated rims.
The clincher rims were painted inside and out when new. I have a new old stock 30x3-1/2 rim and it appears the wheel was dipped in black paint. Zinc plating is the correct finish for model t era rims.
If you do the research you will find cadmium plating was not invented until the late 1930's and really became popular during WW2.
This is not a "Pick on Larry" post, but as Peter indicated, waster can easily get into the rim at the valve hole, on both non-demountables and demountables. The bridge washer facilitates this further. Most rims I find are thinner/ more rusted around the valve hole. Once the water is in, it will wick around the rim and get the rust process under way.
Allan from down under.